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The New End-User License Agreement is Unacceptable

T.C.

By T.C.
in KSP1 Discussion

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T.C.

T.C.

Posted
Posted (edited)

I read license agreements. The license agreement for Kerbal Space Program has changed since I last downloaded the program. The new license agreement is unacceptable. It is ridiculously one-sided in favor of the company. It is an insult to the customers.

I know most of you don't bother to read license agreements. Please read this one. Then tell Squad what you think about it. Companies deserve to be called out when they do things like this.

-TC

Edited by adsii1970
Changed the name of the thread back to the original title...
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purpleivan

purpleivan

Posted
Posted

If the OP is referring to the EULA then having given it a quick look at, it seems like pretty standard fare, so I don't see what the fuss is about.

As others have said, it would help is the OP would post a reference to the sections of it they were most offended by.

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Dunbaratu

Dunbaratu

Posted
Posted (edited)

Most importantly, not only say what the EULA says that offends you, but specifically *what the difference is* between this version and the previous one, since your post hinges on the claim that its a new change that is the problem.

It may be nothing more than the difference betweenTake 2's lawyers writing up standard boilerplate paragraphs the way they're used to instead of SQUAD's lawyers writing up standard boilerplate the way they're used to.  Or it may be a big deal where actual rules have changed.  But if you can't be bothered to mention what the  important difference is that triggers your outrage you can't really expect others to follow suit.

Edited by Steven Mading
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stibbons

stibbons

Posted
Posted (edited)

The last major update to the EULA was around the same time as the KSP 1.0 release. There's been a couple of minor tweaks to the wording since then, but nothing drastic (Wayback Machine has a few  revisions since May 2015 if you're curious. I stopped looking for updates prior to that) 

I'm curious about the issues OP has with it as well. 

Although, the one thing that I've always found mildly interesting is that, strictly speaking,  a user is not permitted multiple installs. All the discussion of multiple KSP installs on these forums follow the spirit of the agreement, but definitely not the letter of it. Obviously, YMMV, local jurisdictions may or may not apply, and I'm definitely not a lawyer. It's always kind of funny whenever somebody asks about the legality of keeping separate installs, watching everybody start talking about how many they have and nobody actually answering the question. 

Edited by stibbons
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Zeiss Ikon

Zeiss Ikon

Posted
Posted

Virtually every EULA, everywhere, for everything prohibits multiple installs.  You aren't allowed to install once on your laptop and once on your desktop machine, you aren't allowed even to have more than a single backup at any given time, and so forth.  Passages like this are clearly intended to allow the rights holder (in this case, Take2, formerly Squad) to pursue folks who make and distribute copies for which the rights holder hasn't been paid -- and there have been court cases that invalidate the very idea of restricting backups.  In between is the case of installing on your desktop machine and your laptop, so you can play more comfortably (and likely with more mods/higher frame rate) at home, but still play when you're on the road.

The rights holder would like to be paid twice for this.

If you treat software like music, the courts have said they don't have the right to demand multiple payment in this case -- if I buy a vinyl LP or a CD, I have the legal right (even under DMCA, as I understand it) to make copies on 8-track, cassette, or digital file (MP3 and such) to allow me to listen to music I've paid for in locations where it isn't practical to carry the original media and/or a player for it -- in other words, I've paid for the right to listen to the music, not solely for the recording material it's sold on.

Years ago, American courts used a principal of "treat it like a book" for software -- allowing reselling used software, lending it, and so forth.  Copyright law (in the United States) was changed to prohibit that, binding users to the EULA until or unless some clause in the EULA was invalidated (and the severability clause in standard EULAs maintains that in that case, the rest of the agreement remains in force).  As things stand, if the EULA forbids multiple installs, you're in violation if you install on two machines -- even if you can't possibly play on both at once (technically not the case with KSP, because someone else could play on your laptop while you've got your head down over a new Jool station design on your desktop system).  Even if it's multiple installs on the same machine, for instance, to run with different mod sets, or different versions, the EULA forbids.

IMO, the likelihood of individual enforcement of this kind of clause is very slim -- in the end, it's an anti-piracy clause, and the main intent is to prevent you giving all your friends (including the tends of thousands on that torrent site you enjoy so much) copies of the software that haven't been paid for.  The rights holder has little or nothing to gain by spending huge sums to try to get another $39.95 out of individual users.  Just like Sony back in Napster days, their effort is spent on those who enable mass piracy, and the "single install" clause exists mainly so they don't have to provide "court case" level proof of a torrent upload (likely impossible) to take action against a pirate.

Mind you, I could be wrong -- assess the risk for yourself.  If you're risk-averse, pay for additional copies if you need to make multiple installs.  If you're a believer in the inherent rightness of DMCA (with all its excesses) and ridiculously over-written EULAs, pay for additional copies.  If you're an ordinary user who wants to play with different mod sets in different saves, or play on your laptop when you're out and your desktop when you're home, let your conscience be your guide.

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regex

regex

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, stibbons said:

Although, the one thing that I've always found mildly interesting is that, strictly speaking,  a user is not permitted multiple installs. All the discussion of multiple KSP installs on these forums follow the spirit of the agreement, but definitely not the letter of it. Obviously, YMMV, local jurisdictions may or may not apply, and I'm definitely not a lawyer. It's always kind of funny whenever somebody asks about the legality of keeping separate installs, watching everybody start talking about how many they have and nobody actually answering the question. 

I've always taken that to mean that all of the installs must remain on one machine. Without DRM or a single-install mechanism (Windows registry, for instance) there really is nothing stopping you from having multiple installs on a single machine. Start passing it around or claim multiple machine installs without additional copies and you're breaking the EULA. Kind of follows from a lot of open-source licensing practices, that basically they govern how to share the software, and since you can't share software licensed like KSP the boilerplate around a EULA just makes sure the company has all the rights if a situation does arise.

Also, I, too, want to know what is so offensive about this EULA.

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wumpus

wumpus

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, regex said:

I've always taken that to mean that all of the installs must remain on one machine.

I suspect that some Steam users have multiple computers and simply log into their steam accounts.  This makes it one user/multiple computers.  While KSP so far hasn't had any DRM (KerbalEDU being an interesting exception), I'd expect some players to simply do this without knowing the EULA.

I've splattered multiple installations onto  one computer (with two OSs) and hope that won't be a problem.

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KerBlitz Kerman

KerBlitz Kerman

Posted
Posted

Here it is.

Spoiler

IMPORTANT PLEASE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE CONTINUING WITH THIS PROGRAM INSTALL. The application is licensed not sold, to you for use only under the terms of this license. DEPORTED B.V. (“DEPORTED”) reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The product that is subject to this license is referred to as the “Licensed Application” which may include associated software components, media, printed materials, and “online” or electronic documentation.

If you have any questions about this agreement, you can reach DEPORTED at [email protected].

By installing, copying, downloading or otherwise using the Licensed Application, you agree to be bound by the terms of the agreement below:
1. SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT – READ CAREFULLY:
YOUR ELECTRONIC ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND/OR YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND/OR ANY RELATED ITEMS AND DOCUMENTATION LICENSED HEREUNDER IS SUBJECT TO THE SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW AND INDICATES YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, INCLUDING, IN PARTICULAR, LIMITATIONS ON ACCESS, USE, TRANSFERABILITY, WARRANTY AND LIABILITY. YOU AGREE THAT THIS AGREEMENT IS ENFORCEABLE LIKE ANY WRITTEN NEGOTIATED AGREEMENT SIGNED BY YOU. IN ADDITION, BY ELECTRONICALLY ACCEPTING THIS AGREEMENT OR THROUGH YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION, YOU CERTIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO BIND YOURSELF TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SET FORTH IN THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU MAY NOT USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION OR EXERCISE ANY OF THE RIGHTS GRANTED HEREUNDER. THUS, IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT COPY, DOWNLOAD, ACCESS AND/OR USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION.
2. LIMITED USE LICENSE.
DEPORTED grants you, and you accept, the non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, non-commercial, limited right and license, during the term, to copy, install, access and use one copy of the Licensed Application solely and exclusively for your personal use on any computer running a validly licensed copy of the operating system for which the Licensed Application was designed [e.g., Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows Vista, Mac OSX] that you own or control. All access and use of the Licensed Application is also subject to DEPORTED’s Terms of Service, accessible here WWW.KERBALSPACEPROGRAM.COM/TERMS.PHP, and all terms and conditions of the Terms of Service are hereby incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by DEPORTED and, as applicable, DEPORTED’s licensors. YOU ARE PERMITTED TO COPY, DOWNLOAD, INSTALL AND/OR USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Licensed Application and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Licensed Application. This Agreement shall also apply to any patches or updates you may obtain for the Licensed Application.
3. OWNERSHIP.
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Licensed Application (including but not limited to any patches and updates) and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and “applets” incorporated into the Licensed Application) are owned by DEPORTED, affiliates of DEPORTED or DEPORTED’s licensors. The Licensed Application is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. You acknowledge that DEPORTED owns all rights in and to the Licensed Application, including, but not limited to worldwide statutory and common law rights associated with (a) patents and patent applications; (b) works of authorship, including copyrights, copyright applications, copyright registrations and “moral rights;” (c) the protection of trade and industrial secrets and confidential information; (d) Trademarks; and (e) divisions, continuations, renewals, derivative works, and re-issuances of any of the foregoing, now existing or acquired in the future.
4. AUTOMATIC MONITORING/AUDITS
(a) You acknowledge that DEPORTED reserves the right, at any time and without notice, to monitor compliance with the terms of this Agreement and to otherwise protect its rights in the Licensed Application by incorporating license management technology into the Licensed Application and monitoring usage, including, without limitation, time, date, access or other controls, counters, serial numbers, and/or other security devices. The Licensed Application may also include product activation and other security technology that is designed to prevent the unauthorized access, use and/or copying of the Licensed Application, including any violations of this Agreement. This technology may cause your device to automatically connect to the Internet, may transmit information about you and the device used to access the Licensed Application (including personal information) to DEPORTED, and may prevent uses of the Licensed Application that are not authorized or permitted pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.

(b) DEPORTED reserves the right, with reasonable notice, to audit or have audited your use of the Licensed Application to verify compliance with the terms of this Agreement. Such audit shall be at DEPORTED’s expense unless noncompliance by you is found by the auditor, in which case, you shall reimburse DEPORTED for the reasonable costs of the audit in addition to payment of all fees necessary to obtain valid licenses to bring your use back into compliance.
5. CONSENT TO USE OF DATA.
Your access and use of the Licensed Application is not private or confidential. Your access and use of the Licensed Application is governed by DEPORTED’ Privacy Policy WWW.KERBALSPACEPROGRAM.COM/PRIVACYPOLICY.PHP, which is incorporated herein by this reference. You agree that DEPORTED may collect and use technical data and related information, including but not limited to technical information about your device, system and application software, and peripherals, that is gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, product support and other services to you (if any) related to the Licensed Application. DEPORTED may use this information, as long as it is in a form that does not personally identify you, to improve its products or to provide services or technologies to you.
6. AGE RESTRICTIONS.
By using and accessing the Licensed Application you hereby acknowledge, represent and warrant to DEPORTED that: (1) you are at least eighteen (18) years old and that you possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Licensed Application in accordance with this Agreement; or (2) that, if you are not eighteen (18) years of age, your parents or legal guardians have reviewed and consented to this Agreement and have assisted you to create and register a user profile. DEPORTED does not allow users less than thirteen (13) years of age to register an account or user profile for the Licensed Application. Your registration may be deleted and your access to the Licensed Application may be terminated without warning if DEPORTED believes, in its sole discretion, that you are under the age of thirteen (13) years or between the ages of thirteen (13) and eighteen (18) years but do not your parents’ or guardians’ permission to register for an/or access the Licensed Application.
7. YOU SHALL NOT:
You hereby acknowledge and agree that you shall not use the Licensed Application for any purpose other than for non-commercial personal enjoyment, entertainment purposes, and that you shall use the Licensed Application in accordance with all applicable laws, rules, and regulations. Except as expressly provided herein you shall not, and shall not permit any third party to:
7.1 Exploit the Licensed Application or any of its parts commercially, including but not limited to use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other commercial site. Notwithstanding, in certain circumstances DEPORTED may offer a separate license Agreement to permit you to make the Licensed Application available for commercial use. If you seek such license contact DEPORTED through the contact information below.
7.2 Use the Licensed Application, or permit use of the Licensed Application, on more than one device at the same time.
7.3 Make copies of the Licensed Application or any part thereof, or make copies of the materials accompanying the Licensed Application with the intention of illegal distribution.
7.4 Copy the Licensed Application onto a hard drive or other storage device except as specifically permitted herein.
7.5 Use the Licensed Application, or permit use of the Licensed Application, in a network, multi-user arrangement or remote access arrangement, including any online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by the Licensed Application.
7.6 Sell, rent, lease, license, distribute or otherwise transfer the Licensed Application, or any copies of the Licensed Application, without the express prior written consent of DEPORTED.
7.7 Reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, decompile, disassemble, or create derivative works of the Licensed Application, in whole or in part.
7.8 Remove, disable or circumvent any proprietary notices or labels contained on or within the Licensed Application.
7.9 Create, develop, modify, distribute or use any software programs, in order to gain (or allow others to gain) advantage of or access to the Licensed Application in any on-line multiplayer game settings including but not limited to local area network or any other network play or on the Internet.
7.10 Export the Licensed Application or any copy or adaptation in violation of any applicable laws or regulations.
8. CHARGES AND BILLING.
You agree that to the extent you provide DEPORTED and/or its licensors or affiliates any payment information, you represent that you are an authorized user of the chosen method of payment, and that all payment information you provide, including but not limited to your name, credit card or other payment account identifying number, expiration date, security codes, billing address, and any other payment information will be current, complete, true and accurate. All expenses and costs incurred by you in connection with your activities hereunder, if any, are your sole responsibility. You are not entitled to reimbursement from DEPORTED for any expenses, and you will hold DEPORTED harmless therefrom.
9. NO WARRANTY:
9.1 YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, LEGALITY, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH YOU. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND ANY SERVICES PERFORMED OR PROVIDED BY THE LICENSED APPLICATION (“SERVICES”) ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND DEPORTED HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND ANY SERVICES, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OF ACCURACY, OF QUIET ENJOYMENT, OF LEGALITY, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. DEPORTED DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION, THAT THE FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN, OR SERVICES PERFORMED OR PROVIDED BY, THE LICENSED APPLICATION WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT THE OPERATION OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION OR SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE LICENSED APPLICATION OR SERVICES WILL BE CORRECTED. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY DEPORTED OR ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE(S) SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES OR LIMITATIONS ON APPLICABLE STATUTORY RIGHTS OF A CONSUMER, SO THE ABOVE EXCLUSION AND LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
10. LIMITATION ON DAMAGES.
ANY CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT MUST BE FILED WITHIN ONE (1) YEAR AFTER SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION AROSE REGARDLESS OF ANY STATUTES OR LAW TO THE CONTRARY. IN THE EVENT ANY SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION IS NOT FILED WITHIN SUCH ONE (1) YEAR PERIOD, SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION IS FOREVER BARRED. IN NO EVENT WILL DEPORTED BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURIES, EVEN IF DEPORTED HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. DEPORTED’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO USE THIS LICENSED APPLICATION. YOU AGREE THAT THE LIMITATIONS IN THIS SECTION 10 ARE A BARGAINED FOR EXCHANGE AND A MATERIAL CONDITION AND PREMISE OF THIS AGREEMENT. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.
11. TERM & TERMINATION.
Unless terminated earlier as provided for herein, this Agreement shall commence on the date you download and/or register for the Licensed Application and shall continue in effect for as long as you comply with this Agreement. Without prejudice to any other rights of DEPORTED, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the Licensed Application and all of its component parts. Additionally, DEPORTED and/or its licensors, reserve the right to change, suspend, remove, or disable access to or elements of the Licensed Application at any time without notice. In no event will DEPORTED be liable for the removal of or disabling of access to the Licensed Application or any elements or portions thereof. DEPORTED may also impose limits on the use of or access to certain elements or portions of the Licensed Application, in any case and without notice or liability. YOU AGREE THAT DEPORTED SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE CAUSED, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, BY ANY SUCH TERMINATION AND/OR SUSPENSION. IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR ACCOUNT IS TERMINATED, YOU WILL HAVE NO FURTHER ACCESS TO THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY REFUND OR REIMBURSEMENT FOR PAYMENTS ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR ACCOUNT.
12. U.S. GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS.
The Licensed Application and documentation have been developed entirely at private expense and are provided as “Commercial Computer Software” or “restricted computer software.” Use, duplication or disclosure by the U.S. Government or a U.S. Government subcontractor is subject to the restrictions set forth in subparagraph (c)(l)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software clauses in DFARS 252.227-7013 or as set forth in subparagraph (c)(l) and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software Restricted Rights clauses at FAR 52.227-19, as applicable. The Contractor/Manufacturer is DEPORTED B.V. and is located at the address below. You represent and warrant that (i) you are not located in a country that is subject to a U.S. Government embargo, or that has been designated by the U.S. Government as a “terrorist supporting” country; (ii) you are not listed on any U.S. Government list of prohibited or restricted parties; and (iii) you are not on the Treasury Department’s list of Specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Department of Commerce Denied Person’s List or Entity List. Additionally, you represent and warrant that you will not use the Licensed Application for any purposes prohibited by United States law.
13. INJUNCTION.
Because DEPORTED would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that DEPORTED shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as DEPORTED may otherwise have under applicable laws.
14. INDEMNITY.
You agree to indemnify, defend and hold DEPORTED, its partners, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Licensed Application pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.
15. ASSIGNMENT.
DEPORTED may assign this Agreement, in whole or in part, at any time. Notwithstanding, you may not assign, transfer or sublicense any or all of your rights or obligations under the Agreement and/or Licensed Application without DEPORTED’s express prior written consent.
16. DISPUTE RESOLUTION.
A printed version of the Agreement and of any notice given in electronic form shall be admissible in judicial or administrative proceedings based upon or relating to the Agreement to the same extent and subject to the same conditions as other business documents and records originally generated and maintained in printed form. You and DEPORTED agree that any cause of action arising out of or related to the Agreement and/or Licensed Application must commence within one (1) year after the cause of action arose; otherwise, such cause of action is permanently barred. You agree that the provisions in this paragraph will survive any termination of your account(s) or the Agreement and/or Licensed Application.

By your access to and use of the Agreement and/or Licensed Application you hereby specifically acknowledge, agree and consent that you waive your right to a trial, by jury or otherwise, and that you agree that any suit, action, proceeding, dispute, controversy or claim (“Dispute”) arising out of or relating to the Agreement, Licensed Application or any of the transactions contemplated herein or related to the Agreement and/or Licensed Application or any contests or services thereon (including without limitation, statutory, equitable or tort claims) will be dealt with in accordance with the following procedures. All parties shall first attempt to negotiate all Disputes informally for at least thirty (30) days before initiating any arbitration. Such informal negotiations shall commence following the receipt of a notice in writing by one of the parties sent to the other. DEPORTED will send its notice to your billing address and forward a copy to the email address you have provided to DEPORTED (if any). You may send any notice to DEPORTED to the address listed below.

If the Dispute is not resolved through informal negotiations the Dispute (except those Disputes expressly excluded below) shall be finally and exclusively resolved by binding arbitration before a sole arbitrator. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ABSENT THIS PROVISION, YOU WOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND HAVE A JURY TRIAL. If you are a resident of the United States, any arbitration will take place at any reasonable location within the United States convenient for you or anywhere DEPORTED is located. For residents outside the United States, any arbitration shall be initiated in the Netherlands using the English language in accordance with the Commercial Arbitration Rules and Procedures of the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) then in effect, by one arbitrator with substantial experience in resolving intellectual property and commercial contract disputes, who shall be selected from the appropriate list of AAA arbitrators. Any arbitration shall be completed within 30 days from the appointment of the arbitrator unless the parties otherwise agree in writing. The determination of whether a Dispute is subject to arbitration shall be governed by the Federal Arbitration Act and determined by an arbitrator rather than a court. The prevailing party in any arbitration or other proceeding arising under these Terms of Service shall be entitled to receive reimbursement of its reasonable expenses (including reasonable attorneys’ fees, expert witness fees and all other expenses) incurred in connection therewith. Judgment upon the award so rendered may be entered in a court having jurisdiction or application may be made to such court for judicial acceptance of any award and an order of enforcement, as the case may be. Notwithstanding the foregoing, each party shall have the right to institute an action in a court of proper jurisdiction for injunctive or other equitable relief pending a final decision by the arbitrator. Use of the Licensed Application is not authorized in any jurisdiction that does not give effect to all provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation, this section.

The parties agree that any arbitration shall be limited to the Dispute between you and DEPORTED individually. To the full extent permitted by law, (1) no arbitration shall be joined with any other; (2) there is no right or authority for any Dispute to be arbitrated on a class-action basis or to utilize class action procedures; and (3) there is no right or authority for any Dispute to be brought in a purported representative capacity on behalf of the general public or any other persons.
17. SUPPORT SERVICES.
DEPORTED may provide you with support services (e.g., KSP Software Development Kit) related to the Licensed Application (“Support Services”). Any supplemental software code or other materials provided to you as part of the Support Services shall be considered part of the Licensed Application and subject to the terms and conditions of this License Agreement.
18. MISCELLANEOUS.
You must comply with all applicable laws regarding use of the Licensed Application. This Agreement shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, the application of which is hereby expressly excluded. This Agreement represents the complete agreement concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. Whether or not a Dispute is subject to arbitration, this Agreement shall be construed under The Netherlands law as such law is applied to agreements between The Netherlands residents entered into and to be performed within The Netherlands, except as governed by federal law.
19. NOTICES.
Below is the contact information to which any end-user questions, complaints or claims with respect to the Licensed Application should be directed:

DEPORTED B.V.
Strawinskylaan 1431, 1077 XX Amsterdam
Noord Holland, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 20 8941 300
Email: [email protected]
20. MODIFICATIONS.
DEPORTED has the right to modify this license agreement and impose and modify new or additional terms and conditions regarding the use of the Licensed Application at any time. All new and/or modified terms and/or conditions will be effective ten (10) days after publication through the Licensed Application or on WWW.KERBALSPACEPROGRAM.COM. Within five (5) days following the publishing of the modifications and/or additions to the license agreement, the user must inform DEPORTED via e-mail, regarding its non-acceptance of the modifications or additions. Once the five (5) day period has elapsed, your continued use of the Licensed Application will be deemed as the express acceptance of the new or modified terms or conditions. Therefore, if you do not accept the new terms and conditions you must immediately stop using the Licensed Application.

You might be right @T.C.

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nascarlaser1

nascarlaser1

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, KerBlitz Kerman said:

Here it is.

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IMPORTANT PLEASE READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE CONTINUING WITH THIS PROGRAM INSTALL. The application is licensed not sold, to you for use only under the terms of this license. DEPORTED B.V. (“DEPORTED”) reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The product that is subject to this license is referred to as the “Licensed Application” which may include associated software components, media, printed materials, and “online” or electronic documentation.

If you have any questions about this agreement, you can reach DEPORTED at [email protected].

By installing, copying, downloading or otherwise using the Licensed Application, you agree to be bound by the terms of the agreement below:
1. SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT – READ CAREFULLY:
YOUR ELECTRONIC ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND/OR YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND/OR ANY RELATED ITEMS AND DOCUMENTATION LICENSED HEREUNDER IS SUBJECT TO THE SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW AND INDICATES YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, INCLUDING, IN PARTICULAR, LIMITATIONS ON ACCESS, USE, TRANSFERABILITY, WARRANTY AND LIABILITY. YOU AGREE THAT THIS AGREEMENT IS ENFORCEABLE LIKE ANY WRITTEN NEGOTIATED AGREEMENT SIGNED BY YOU. IN ADDITION, BY ELECTRONICALLY ACCEPTING THIS AGREEMENT OR THROUGH YOUR ACTUAL USE OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION, YOU CERTIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO BIND YOURSELF TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS SET FORTH IN THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU MAY NOT USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION OR EXERCISE ANY OF THE RIGHTS GRANTED HEREUNDER. THUS, IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT COPY, DOWNLOAD, ACCESS AND/OR USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION.
2. LIMITED USE LICENSE.
DEPORTED grants you, and you accept, the non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, non-commercial, limited right and license, during the term, to copy, install, access and use one copy of the Licensed Application solely and exclusively for your personal use on any computer running a validly licensed copy of the operating system for which the Licensed Application was designed [e.g., Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows Vista, Mac OSX] that you own or control. All access and use of the Licensed Application is also subject to DEPORTED’s Terms of Service, accessible here WWW.KERBALSPACEPROGRAM.COM/TERMS.PHP, and all terms and conditions of the Terms of Service are hereby incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by DEPORTED and, as applicable, DEPORTED’s licensors. YOU ARE PERMITTED TO COPY, DOWNLOAD, INSTALL AND/OR USE THE LICENSED APPLICATION ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Licensed Application and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Licensed Application. This Agreement shall also apply to any patches or updates you may obtain for the Licensed Application.
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ANY CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT MUST BE FILED WITHIN ONE (1) YEAR AFTER SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION AROSE REGARDLESS OF ANY STATUTES OR LAW TO THE CONTRARY. IN THE EVENT ANY SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION IS NOT FILED WITHIN SUCH ONE (1) YEAR PERIOD, SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION IS FOREVER BARRED. IN NO EVENT WILL DEPORTED BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE LICENSED APPLICATION, INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURIES, EVEN IF DEPORTED HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. DEPORTED’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO USE THIS LICENSED APPLICATION. YOU AGREE THAT THE LIMITATIONS IN THIS SECTION 10 ARE A BARGAINED FOR EXCHANGE AND A MATERIAL CONDITION AND PREMISE OF THIS AGREEMENT. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.
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Unless terminated earlier as provided for herein, this Agreement shall commence on the date you download and/or register for the Licensed Application and shall continue in effect for as long as you comply with this Agreement. Without prejudice to any other rights of DEPORTED, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the Licensed Application and all of its component parts. Additionally, DEPORTED and/or its licensors, reserve the right to change, suspend, remove, or disable access to or elements of the Licensed Application at any time without notice. In no event will DEPORTED be liable for the removal of or disabling of access to the Licensed Application or any elements or portions thereof. DEPORTED may also impose limits on the use of or access to certain elements or portions of the Licensed Application, in any case and without notice or liability. YOU AGREE THAT DEPORTED SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE CAUSED, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, BY ANY SUCH TERMINATION AND/OR SUSPENSION. IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR ACCOUNT IS TERMINATED, YOU WILL HAVE NO FURTHER ACCESS TO THE LICENSED APPLICATION AND YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY REFUND OR REIMBURSEMENT FOR PAYMENTS ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR ACCOUNT.
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The Licensed Application and documentation have been developed entirely at private expense and are provided as “Commercial Computer Software” or “restricted computer software.” Use, duplication or disclosure by the U.S. Government or a U.S. Government subcontractor is subject to the restrictions set forth in subparagraph (c)(l)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software clauses in DFARS 252.227-7013 or as set forth in subparagraph (c)(l) and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software Restricted Rights clauses at FAR 52.227-19, as applicable. The Contractor/Manufacturer is DEPORTED B.V. and is located at the address below. You represent and warrant that (i) you are not located in a country that is subject to a U.S. Government embargo, or that has been designated by the U.S. Government as a “terrorist supporting” country; (ii) you are not listed on any U.S. Government list of prohibited or restricted parties; and (iii) you are not on the Treasury Department’s list of Specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Department of Commerce Denied Person’s List or Entity List. Additionally, you represent and warrant that you will not use the Licensed Application for any purposes prohibited by United States law.
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Because DEPORTED would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that DEPORTED shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as DEPORTED may otherwise have under applicable laws.
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You agree to indemnify, defend and hold DEPORTED, its partners, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Licensed Application pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.
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DEPORTED may assign this Agreement, in whole or in part, at any time. Notwithstanding, you may not assign, transfer or sublicense any or all of your rights or obligations under the Agreement and/or Licensed Application without DEPORTED’s express prior written consent.
16. DISPUTE RESOLUTION.
A printed version of the Agreement and of any notice given in electronic form shall be admissible in judicial or administrative proceedings based upon or relating to the Agreement to the same extent and subject to the same conditions as other business documents and records originally generated and maintained in printed form. You and DEPORTED agree that any cause of action arising out of or related to the Agreement and/or Licensed Application must commence within one (1) year after the cause of action arose; otherwise, such cause of action is permanently barred. You agree that the provisions in this paragraph will survive any termination of your account(s) or the Agreement and/or Licensed Application.

By your access to and use of the Agreement and/or Licensed Application you hereby specifically acknowledge, agree and consent that you waive your right to a trial, by jury or otherwise, and that you agree that any suit, action, proceeding, dispute, controversy or claim (“Dispute”) arising out of or relating to the Agreement, Licensed Application or any of the transactions contemplated herein or related to the Agreement and/or Licensed Application or any contests or services thereon (including without limitation, statutory, equitable or tort claims) will be dealt with in accordance with the following procedures. All parties shall first attempt to negotiate all Disputes informally for at least thirty (30) days before initiating any arbitration. Such informal negotiations shall commence following the receipt of a notice in writing by one of the parties sent to the other. DEPORTED will send its notice to your billing address and forward a copy to the email address you have provided to DEPORTED (if any). You may send any notice to DEPORTED to the address listed below.

If the Dispute is not resolved through informal negotiations the Dispute (except those Disputes expressly excluded below) shall be finally and exclusively resolved by binding arbitration before a sole arbitrator. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ABSENT THIS PROVISION, YOU WOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND HAVE A JURY TRIAL. If you are a resident of the United States, any arbitration will take place at any reasonable location within the United States convenient for you or anywhere DEPORTED is located. For residents outside the United States, any arbitration shall be initiated in the Netherlands using the English language in accordance with the Commercial Arbitration Rules and Procedures of the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) then in effect, by one arbitrator with substantial experience in resolving intellectual property and commercial contract disputes, who shall be selected from the appropriate list of AAA arbitrators. Any arbitration shall be completed within 30 days from the appointment of the arbitrator unless the parties otherwise agree in writing. The determination of whether a Dispute is subject to arbitration shall be governed by the Federal Arbitration Act and determined by an arbitrator rather than a court. The prevailing party in any arbitration or other proceeding arising under these Terms of Service shall be entitled to receive reimbursement of its reasonable expenses (including reasonable attorneys’ fees, expert witness fees and all other expenses) incurred in connection therewith. Judgment upon the award so rendered may be entered in a court having jurisdiction or application may be made to such court for judicial acceptance of any award and an order of enforcement, as the case may be. Notwithstanding the foregoing, each party shall have the right to institute an action in a court of proper jurisdiction for injunctive or other equitable relief pending a final decision by the arbitrator. Use of the Licensed Application is not authorized in any jurisdiction that does not give effect to all provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation, this section.

The parties agree that any arbitration shall be limited to the Dispute between you and DEPORTED individually. To the full extent permitted by law, (1) no arbitration shall be joined with any other; (2) there is no right or authority for any Dispute to be arbitrated on a class-action basis or to utilize class action procedures; and (3) there is no right or authority for any Dispute to be brought in a purported representative capacity on behalf of the general public or any other persons.
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You must comply with all applicable laws regarding use of the Licensed Application. This Agreement shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, the application of which is hereby expressly excluded. This Agreement represents the complete agreement concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. Whether or not a Dispute is subject to arbitration, this Agreement shall be construed under The Netherlands law as such law is applied to agreements between The Netherlands residents entered into and to be performed within The Netherlands, except as governed by federal law.
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You might be right @T.C.

I got a headache halfway through (too many words bunched together). From what I could tell it looks like every other (read as 2 others) EULA I've read. Did I miss something the thing that makes it bad?

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Zeiss Ikon

Zeiss Ikon

Posted
Posted (edited)

For those who might get bogged down or whose eyes glaze over easily, here's the "one copy" clause extracted from the above post:

Quote

2. LIMITED USE LICENSE.
DEPORTED grants you, and you accept, the non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, non-commercial, limited right and license, during the term, to copy, install, access and use one copy of the Licensed Application solely and exclusively for your personal use on any computer running a validly licensed copy of the operating system for which the Licensed Application was designed [e.g., Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows Vista, Mac OSX] that you own or control.

Read literally (which is how courts usually do it), this says you may not have more than one operable copy of the software at any time (without paying for additional licenses).  It also says you may not have a backup, may not keep the downloaded file after installing, and muddies the waters relative to whether you can actually legally install the software at all -- since the installer makes a copy of the contents of the downloaded file and doesn't simultaneously delete the original, you'd be in violation at least for as long as the installer runs and until you can delete the download.

Which is exactly how most EULAs are written.  In practice, I've never heard of anyone being persecuted for having multiple installs on a single computer or even on multiple computers all used by only a single person (desktop and laptop example from my previous post).  Not to say it hasn't happened, I've just never heard of it happening.  As I noted previously, clauses like this (ridiculous on the face, because impossible to comply and still use the software) are, in practice (as far as I know), used to pursue software pirates who make the licensed property available to others -- it's far easier to prove violation of the EULA's one-copy clause, than it is to prove someone uploaded the installer to The Pirate Bay or whatever dark web site has replaced it.

Now, one way to make your install portable without violating this clause might be to install the software on a portable storage device (such as a thumb drive -- make frequent backups, if you can find a legal way to do so; thumb drive wearout is far less predictable and much less extended than SSD wearout).  You have only one copy of the software, but it's in a form you can use one any one computer (at a time) wherever you might happen to be.  I'm pretty sure this would not work for the Windows version (because installers almost always put files into the Windows folder tree), and virtually certain it would work for the Linux version (because installers virtually always install in a self-contained chunk to avoid issues with different Linux flavors).  Can't say for certain what MacOS does, I've never been a Mac user.

Sadly, installing to Dropbox would violate the letter of this clause, because Dropbox's installed software makes a copy of the Dropbox cloud storage on each local computer connected to a particular Dropbox account (for access time reasons, I presume).  So, moving my desktop system's install to my Dropbox would amount to making a copy of that install on my laptop (but not on my phone or Android tablet; the Android app for Dropbox doesn't create a local mirror of the cloud), thus violating the "one copy" clause.

Edit to add: I just noticed, however, that the EULA I quoted from probably isn't the one for KSP -- first, it references a company called Deported B.V., rather than either Squad or Take2, and second, it doesn't mention any Windows version newer than Win7 (or Linux in any flavor or version, but many EULAs ignore Linux even when the software has a Linux version).

Edited by Zeiss Ikon
Add note about the posted EULA
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Raptor9

Raptor9

Posted
Posted

Just read through it's entirety.  I'm not an expert on these matters since I'm not a lawyer, but can anyone identify anything specific in the current KSP EULA that is any more restrictive than any other major-selling game?  To that end, KSP utilizes (at this time) no setup/install program, nor any security features identified in the EULA that is quite prevalent in the rest of the gaming industry (serial number entry upon install, online verification, etc).  If anything, there are EULA clauses that are present in the EULA itself, but not even implemented.  This would allow these devices to be implemented at a later date without legality issues, but again, is no more restrictive than any security methods currently in use by the gaming industry at large.

29 minutes ago, KerBlitz Kerman said:

You might be right @T.C.

Would you care to share what you've identified?  Specifically what points in the EULA are you in agreement with @T.C. with?  Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread identify anything in the KSP EULA that is "is an insult to the customers" to quote the OP.

@T.C., you stated that you read license agreements, and this one is obviously offensive to you.  You said:

On 9/23/2017 at 9:20 PM, T.C. said:

I read license agreements. The license agreement for Kerbal Space Program has changed since I last downloaded the program. The new license agreement is unacceptable. It is ridiculously one-sided in favor of the company. It is an insult to the customers.

I know most of you don't bother to read license agreements. Please read this one. Then tell Squad what you think about it. Companies deserve to be called out when they do things like this.

Your opinion sounds quite definitive, but is very unspecific.  Would you please cite specifics to support your conclusions?

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Zeiss Ikon

Zeiss Ikon

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

@T.C., you stated that you read license agreements, and this one is obviously offensive to you.  You said:

Your opinion sounds quite definitive, but is very unspecific.  Would you please cite specifics to support your conclusions?

It just occurred to me -- perhaps @T.C. is a troll.  Look at the long, contentious thread this started...

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Ultimate Steve

Ultimate Steve

Posted
Posted

So, over half of the members of this forum are probably doing something illegal by having both a 1.3 and a 1.2 install? Or having a separate RO/RP-0 install? Or having one copy on an old computer? Or having another one on a USB?

What about having the zip file and the game itself?

What about, back in the days when the store was the only way to get the game and the patcher was broken, you downloaded the game and then downloaded the new version, leading to two installations?

What if you put an install into the trash/recycling bins, but you have another one?

 

Let me get this straight, all of those are illegal?

 

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stibbons

stibbons

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 25/09/2017 at 2:19 AM, regex said:

I've always taken that to mean that all of the installs must remain on one machine.

I read the spirit of the agreement as "one license == one user". Right now I have installs across four computers, but there's only a maximum of one in use at any given time (heck, I have an install on my CI server for building mods, and never actually launch the game on that box). I... think that's not strictly allowed by the EULA right now. But I'm comfortable that I'm not infringing on the owner's rights.

@Zeiss Ikon quoted section 2 of the EULA, which is fairly clear about using one copy of the application. But I think it's also worth pointing out a couple of items of section 7, which declares that the licensee shall not:

Quote

7.2 Use the Licensed Application, or permit use of the Licensed Application, on more than one device at the same time.
7.3 Make copies of the Licensed Application or any part thereof, or make copies of the materials accompanying the Licensed Application with the intention of illegal distribution.

Which backs up my "spirit of the agreement" stance, and also implies that making copies of the application is OK (for backup, or running on separate devices) as long as you're not distributing it illegally (ie, in ways not explicitly allowed in the agreement).

50 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

Now, one way to make your install portable without violating this clause might be to install the software on a portable storage device (such as a thumb drive -- make frequent backups, if you can find a legal way to do so; thumb drive wearout is far less predictable and much less extended than SSD wearout).  You have only one copy of the software, but it's in a form you can use one any one computer (at a time) wherever you might happen to be.  I'm pretty sure this would not work for the Windows version (because installers almost always put files into the Windows folder tree), and virtually certain it would work for the Linux version (because installers virtually always install in a self-contained chunk to avoid issues with different Linux flavors).  Can't say for certain what MacOS does, I've never been a Mac user.

For what it's worth, I can confirm that the Windows, Linux and OSX versions are all portable, there's no technical restriction on copying them about the place. But out of the box, a single install isn't cross platform - you couldn't copy a Windows install to a portable drive and run it on Linux, for example. Although I suppose the only significant difference is the binaries, with a little massaging it just might be possible to merge all three releases in to a single directory tree with shared resources.

43 minutes ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

Look at the long, contentious thread this started...

Oh, this is definitely not contentious by KSP forum standards. :wink: 

Edited by stibbons
speeling
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Bloody_looser

Bloody_looser

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

It just occurred to me -- perhaps @T.C. is a troll.  Look at the long, contentious thread this started...

Nah, that's not long. The very best inflammatory topics used to get tens of pages in a day.

Lack of any explanation for the point, made by the OP, however, makes me suspect the same. :)

Edited by Bloody_looser
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regex

regex

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

It just occurred to me -- perhaps @T.C. is a troll.

What was your first clue?

OP drives by and drops a heated, completely unsupported argument and then doesn't respond to queries for their reasoning, of course it's a troll thread. A poor attempt at a troll thread, but one nontheless.

Quote

Look at the long, contentious thread this started...

It's not a contentious thread at all from my POV, all the arguments here are reasoned and/or supported, aside from OP's.

Edited by regex
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