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Forced Arbitration Agreement - What is it? Why? Opt-Out Letter Template

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Posted (edited)

Take Two: Perhaps you think your being treated unfairly?

Players: (Disencourged) No

Take Two: Good, I would hate to update the EULA and force you into arbitration

Players: This deal keeps getting worse all the time

 

Later

 

Take Two: Admiral, Update the EULA and force them into arbitration, do not fail me again!

Edited by Cheif Operations Director

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Really, to be seriously honest, I have to say that KSP has been going downhill since T2 took over, Squad was fine as it was before T2 came along.

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2 minutes ago, oof? said:

Really, to be seriously honest, I have to say that KSP has been going downhill since T2 took over, Squad was fine as it was before T2 came along.

It weird, T2 has done a lot of good for the game like the new parts retexturing and Making History, but they are so anti-customer which out ways the good they have done. 

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On 3/18/2019 at 12:33 PM, Lisias said:

It's exactly the other way around. I urge you people to give some credit to TTI's lawyers - they are not dumb arses. They know their trade.

 

They dont know their trade. Its illegal in the EU.

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11 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

It weird, T2 has done a lot of good for the game like the new parts retexturing and Making History, but they are so anti-customer which out ways the good they have done. 

Paint jobs more important than major part bugs?

Sounds like HarleyDavidson.

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11 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

It weird, T2 has done a lot of good for the game like the new parts retexturing and Making History, but they are so anti-customer which out ways the good they have done. 

the making history mod was in the works before T" took over, and the reskins arent much work given how some mod makers crank out better ones in their spare time.
 

7 minutes ago, Ratwerke_Actual said:

Paint jobs more important than major part bugs?

Sounds like HarleyDavidson.

GooD analogy, in the Uk at least the only people that buy harlies are mid life crisis muppets, because they melt in the rain, I once saw a 5 year old harleys frame so rusted they had to replace it, it couldent be welded! 

but alas ill go back to KSP.... oh wait, i cant save anything because the save game bug has hit me again where i cant save anythin because it keeps invalidating save files... im sure itll be fixed soon, its only been happening since.....

As for the topic, if your in the EU, the EULA is meaningless, if your in the US get a good lawyer, if your in russia, get a shotgun incase they send people to your door like they did with the GTA modders.....

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1 hour ago, Space Kadet said:

the making history mod was in the works before T" took over, and the reskins arent much work given how some mod makers crank out better ones in their spare time.
  

GooD analogy, in the Uk at least the only people that buy harlies are mid life crisis muppets, because they melt in the rain, I once saw a 5 year old harleys frame so rusted they had to replace it, it couldent be welded! 

but alas ill go back to KSP.... oh wait, i cant save anything because the save game bug has hit me again where i cant save anythin because it keeps invalidating save files... im sure itll be fixed soon, its only been happening since.....

As for the topic, if your in the EU, the EULA is meaningless, if your in the US get a good lawyer, if your in russia, get a shotgun incase they send people to your door like they did with the GTA modders.....

I'm just not playing this game until they change it (not holding my breath at all) Competitors games are more tedious to use but they still work and in some you can do more than in KSP. T2 ruins again!

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11 hours ago, Sirad said:

They dont know their trade. Its illegal in the EU.

Citation needed, please. Civil Law also have loop-holes.

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Posted (edited)

"Stop supporting mods that hides behind the MIT/GPL, and force everything community-based accept (no, not except) DLC. Problem solved." /s

I would not be surprise if one day, any postings in here, community challenge included -- but especially those that reject DLC but allow mods (eg: Kerbal Airline) have to be shutdown. And considering last EULA, it is possible as long as it is hosted in this forum instead of Steam Discussion... which have a whole different issue.

I would welcome this, since I grow up on StarBreeze-DLC model. However, I also know a majority would not like it.

Time to move to reddit, I guess.

Edited by Jestersage

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, immi said:

terms that require the consumer to take disputes exclusively to arbitration are considered unfair and therefor not binding.

Council Directive 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts

article 3/6 and annex 1(q)

Good. Now research about how your Country handles the New York Convention. 

Yes. I'm being picky, but Law is pickier. I once saw an European sueing (and winning) an American for a stupidly the latter committed on the Internet against the former over a clausule on the former's Country Law. So the inverse is also possible.

Keep this in mind: the inverse is also possible: you can be sued by something you did to an American on the Internet that the American laws say you can't. This is the essence of the New York Convention.

Be sure your Country's laws about the New York Convention enforces your local law on foreign affairs.

And then, just then, you can rest assured about your statement. 

Remember: Americans are not subjected to your Country Laws, and you were not forced to take affairs with an American Company, you choose to it.

Also,  do a quick research about how your Country handles Microsoft (as much of these stunts were tried first by them) and check for any precedence.

You can bet your SAS I did on mine, and it's not so good as I wish. All I could manage is to know that it's not so good for "them" too.

Edited by Lisias
Ugh. Bad grammars. I hope it's not illegal somewhere!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lisias said:

Good. Now research about how your Country handles the New York Conventional. 

 

As i see it, EU Law prevents to get to the Point where the New York Convention would come into Use.

As the change of the EULA does not get valid here.

Maybe this is something for the Pro's on that Point.

 

Generally it fails on the Simple fact that you are automatically added to a List that 'agree to that change' even by not being noticed about it (forum post does not legally count) and have to opt ouf by writing a physical letter. If this company would reside in the EU this would be fairly enough to bring them into trouble. Thats business behaviour that suits companys that live upon scamming bitcoins from unwary users claiming they have watched Porn on the inet.

Well they can write me a physical Letter if they want me to agree to that change.

Edited by Sirad

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26 minutes ago, Sirad said:

As the change of the EULA does not get valid here.

But you are still alowed to use the software's new versions by not accepting the EULA? 

Around here, such clausule are "null and void", I.e., I can accept the new EULA because that clausule is dead letter. So I still have the right to use the new software (version).

In some other (very rare, usually due illegalities) situations, the whole contract is dead letter - in such (hypothetical) case, my right to use the software would be nullified as well. So I could be prosecuted for piracy by using the software associated to such contract.

Since my advice to inform yourself before taking something for granted. And this is not about TTI, but to any contract you take with a foreigner. 

Humm... Check if TTI has a office in your country. This changes everything. :)

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3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Around here, such clausule are "null and void", I.e., I can accept the new EULA because that clausule is dead letter. So I still have the right to use the new software (version).

 

Same here. I can totally safely accept the new Eula because the new Terms are too 'Surprising' and will never went valid.

Its just about the bad joke that this Eula is now....

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On 3/22/2019 at 2:34 AM, Lisias said:

Good. Now research about how your Country handles the New York Convention. 

Yes. I'm being picky, ...

not sure posting law references to a non-english source will do you much good, but this here gives a nice summary

The International Arbitration Review - Edition 9   (Germany)

Subjective arbitrability may be restricted in a business–consumer relationship. These restrictions are part of the public policy of the European Union.[...] A German consumer sued his American broker in Germany for fraud. The German courts held the arbitration clause invoked by the broker to be invalid and refused to refer the consumer to arbitrate his claim in the United States. Such limitation of subjective arbitrability in disputes with consumers is in line with the New York Convention. Article V1(a) of the New York Convention specifically authorises states to regulate the capacity of a person to enter into an arbitration agreement.In a series of cases decided between 2010 and 2011, the BGH therefore held arbitration agreements related to financial services between US banks or US brokers and consumers from the EU to be invalid.These public policy restrictions may not be circumvented by a standard form contract selecting a foreign law combined with an arbitration clause according to which the arbitral tribunal has its seat outside of Germany. The BGH has held such standard form clauses to be invalid in a business (broker)–client (consumer) relationship where New York law had been stipulated and the seat of the arbitral tribunal was to be New York City.

If you do a google search for consumer arbitration you will quickly find that this difference between the US and the EU is described pretty much everywhere. And while i am no lawyer, the evidence seems pretty solid & conclusive to me.

 

side note:

Take2 more or less directly confirms in their EULA that this forced arbitration agreement won't work in the EU and that the consumers keeps his right to take any disputes to court:

This paragraph will be interpreted as broadly as applicable law permits. For example, , if you are a resident of a European Union member state, you will benefit from any mandatory provisions of consumer protection law in the member state in which you are resident, and you can bring legal proceedings in relation to this Agreement in the courts of the member state in which you are resident.

of course that part is not included in the official announcement.

It follows the standard approach of dumping a mountain of legal "repurposed bovine waste" onto the customer, trying to restrict his rights as much as humanly possible. With the small fineprint: if legal under domestic law. All you have to do is, take a few months off, study law, strike out the parts that don't apply to you and you'll have an idea what the contract you are signing actually means. Of course in practice 99% of the consumers will shrug their shoulders and just ignore the damn thing.

And the ones suffering are the content creators who have to live with the fact that nobody gives a "excrements". But as long as the legal departments will nurture this kind of behaviour, that's how it's gonna be.

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On 3/21/2019 at 6:55 PM, Lisias said:

Citation needed, please. Civil Law also have loop-holes.

i explained above read a page or two back

On 3/22/2019 at 8:48 AM, Lisias said:

But you are still alowed to use the software's new versions by not accepting the EULA? 

Around here, such clausule are "null and void", I.e., I can accept the new EULA because that clausule is dead letter. So I still have the right to use the new software (version).

In some other (very rare, usually due illegalities) situations, the whole contract is dead letter - in such (hypothetical) case, my right to use the software would be nullified as well. So I could be prosecuted for piracy by using the software associated to such contract.

Since my advice to inform yourself before taking something for granted. And this is not about TTI, but to any contract you take with a foreigner. 

Humm... Check if TTI has a office in your country. This changes everything. :)

again, the eula is deemed unfair, and under EU law, it prevents contracts that are unfair, as you have already purchaced the sorfware you are entilted to the updates, for them to enforce a new EULA it would first have to be fair under the EU law, and secondly they would have to release it as a seperate product, e.g. ksp 2 

you can still buy a product that has unfair terms, they just arent worth the paper they are priinted on. under EU contract lay they are just ignored. BUT in this specific case the EULA update wasent informed to the customers properly (explained a few pages back) so the new eula comes under the defination of 'hidden terms' meaning literally its worthless.

heres your citations this time https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm

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2 minutes ago, Space Kadet said:

i explained above read a page or two back

As far as I understand, nope. I was quoting a guy talking about being "illegal to try to enforce arbitration". It's not illegal - it' not enforceable.

And you don't want them to be illegal on your country, as i would make the whole contract null and void (Civil Law tends to nullify the whole contract when the object of that contract is illegal!), and then you would not have the right to use the software, as the clausule that would allow you to do so was voided by voiding the contract.

And if you are talking about the post where you state "Take 2 is literally doing something illegal curtailing your rights AND YOUR DEFENDING THEM! ", I have some bad news for you.

They are not taking any rights from you - you are the one waiving them (or not). It's not illegal - perhaps it should, but it's not.

 

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10 minutes ago, Space Kadet said:

i explained above read a page or two back

again, the eula is deemed unfair, and under EU law, it prevents contracts that are unfair, as you have already purchaced the sorfware you are entilted to the updates, for them to enforce a new EULA it would first have to be fair under the EU law, and secondly they would have to release it as a seperate product, e.g. ksp 2 

you can still buy a product that has unfair terms, they just arent worth the paper they are priinted on. under EU contract lay they are just ignored. BUT in this specific case the EULA update wasent informed to the customers properly (explained a few pages back) so the new eula comes under the defination of 'hidden terms' meaning literally its worthless.

heres your citations this time https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm

This is great and all but if one does not accept the EULA and was properly informed (theoretically) they have no right to the product that they purchases. If I'm understanding you correctly. 

 

This is NOT a service. T2 is rendering the service of updates for free. That is their decision. We get the Product for $40.00 or however much we payed. As a result I'm entitled to the product I purchased and the save games of the last EULA that I accepted. This is because I accepted the update or service rendered under the old EULA. As a result im entitled the my last save before the EULA update. Because of the way steam works however I can NOT access my old save game without accepting the new EULA which denies my right to a product that I purchased. This is my argument/problem I'm not saying this is what the law says. 

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3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

As far as I understand, nope. I was quoting a guy talking about being "illegal to try to enforce arbitration". It's not illegal - it' not enforceable.

And you don't want them to be illegal on your country, as i would make the whole contract null and void (Civil Law tends to nullify the whole contract when the object of that contract is illegal!), and then you would not have the right to use the software, as the clausule that would allow you to do so was voided by voiding the contract.

And if you are talking about the post where you state "Take 2 is literally doing something illegal curtailing your rights AND YOUR DEFENDING THEM! ", I have some bad news for you.

They are not taking any rights from you - you are the one waiving them (or not). It's not illegal - perhaps it should, but it's not.

 

sorry let me help you

"contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law." is the defination of illeagal, the arbritration section is contratary to EU law, 

and no, most people arent agreeing to this because (yet again) you have to agree to the changes, and clicking a box isint an aknowlaged agreement (sorry for the spelling, im too lazy to turn my settings back to english for just thie)

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6 minutes ago, Lisias said:

As far as I understand, nope. I was quoting a guy talking about being "illegal to try to enforce arbitration". It's not illegal - it' not enforceable.



And you don't want them to be illegal on your country, as i would make the whole contract null and void (Civil Law tends to nullify the whole contract when the object of that contract is illegal!), and then you would not have the right to use the software, as the clausule that would allow you to do so was voided by voiding the contract.

And if you are talking about the post where you state "Take 2 is literally doing something illegal curtailing your rights AND YOUR DEFENDING THEM! ", I have some bad news for you.

They are not taking any rights from you - you are the one waiving them (or not). It's not illegal - perhaps it should, but it's not.

 

The problem is that we can not use our last saves before we accept the new EULA. 

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

The problem is that we can not use our last saves before we accept the new EULA. 

Yes, you can. Using them on the last KSP those EULA's you agree. But this is not he subject of this Thread, if I understood correctly, The EULA itself is. And this is probably the reason they are forcing the hand by demanding you to write a letter to them to opt-out this stunt.

Send your thanks to Microsoft, by the way. They paved the way for this stunt. You need to think out of the box if you intent to outsmart them.

breaking+this+seal+constitutes+acceptanc

 

56 minutes ago, Space Kadet said:

sorry let me help you

Your misunderstanding of things is… [self-censored]… on this case. It would help a bit trying to find citations about what you intent to defend, as this normally [usually] would reveal when you are wrong. As in this case.

Consumer arbitration is not illegal on EU. But the consumer needs to formally agree on the subject, this cannot be stated unilaterally,

Trying to unilaterally bind the consumer to this is not enforceable, as there's a law telling the Consumer has to explicitly agree with the movement, Since there're no law saying "You are forbidden to try to get unilateral consent from the User", you can't say it's illegal to do so.

And, again, you don't want this to be illegal:

Quote

An illegal agreement in business law is a contract that was made for an illegalreason and is consequently against the law. If the content of the agreement causes the parties to perform illegal actions, then the contract is illegal. Agreementscollateral to the original are also considered void.

[…]

A void contract may not necessarily be prohibited by law, while an illegal contract is not legal, and those involved can be penalized for signing it. A void contract has no consequences in court because it is null from the start.

source: https://www.upcounsel.com/illegal-agreement-in-business-law

So, and again, I advise against the use of the "illegal" adjective.

Edited by Lisias
Kakren poo typos. and some argument adequacy...

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1 minute ago, Lisias said:

Yes, you can. Using them on the last KSP those EULA's you agree. But this is not he subject of this Thread, if I understood correctly, The EULA itself is. And this is probably the reason they are forcing the hand by demanding you to write a letter to them to opt-out this stunt. 

Send your thanks to Microsoft, by the way. They paved the way for this stunt. You need to think out of the box if you intent to outsmart them.

breaking+this+seal+constitutes+acceptanc

 

Your misunderstanding of things is… appalling… on this case. It would help a but trying to find citations about what you intent to defend, as this normally would reveal when you are wrong. As in this case.

Consumer arbitration is not illegal on EU. But the consumer needs to formally agree on the subject, this cannot be stated unilaterally,

Trying to unilaterally bind the consumer to this is not enforceable, as there's a law telling the Consumer has to explicitly agree with the movement, Since there're no law saying "You are forbidden to try to get unilateral consent from the User", you can1t say it1s illegal to do so.

And, again, you don't want this to be illegal,

source: https://www.upcounsel.com/illegal-agreement-in-business-law

So, and again, I advise against the use of the "illegal" adjective.

First how do I play my old save if you know,

Secondly that picture is absolutely hilarious given the context. 

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Before this goes down a road we don't want it to, lets keep the arguments civil and non-personal please.  

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8 minutes ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

First how do I play my old save if you know,

By downloading a old KSP to use them! :) 

You see, you didn't agreed to the new EULA when you downloaded that version, you had agreed to that older EULA. You don't download the new version (or, better, you recover your old backups), you are not bound to the new EULA.

Even Microsoft had to push you new updates, with new EULA terms, in order to force their hand on you. It's legally impossible to change the contracted terms without mutual agreement once such contract is stablished.

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44 minutes ago, Lisias said:

By downloading a old KSP to use them! :) 

You see, you didn't agreed to the new EULA when you downloaded that version, you had agreed to that older EULA. You don't download the new version (or, better, you recover your old backups), you are not bound to the new EULA.

Even Microsoft had to push you new updates, with new EULA terms, in order to force their hand on you. It's legally impossible to change the contracted terms without mutual agreement once such contract is stablished.

Again HOW do I do this. I'm on steam so it auto saves when I hit the play button it asks me to accept the new EULA. 

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