[WIP] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[dave1904]

With some more looking into it decouplers just don't seem to decouple as fluid as they used to. Keep in mind I am running 1.5.1 with a excrements ton of mods so I might just revert back to an older version of KJR. That version doesn't like IR but I will have to live with that until the new DLC comes out and I do a total cleanup of mods. 

[Rudolf Meier]

1 hour ago, dave1904 said:

With some more looking into it decouplers just don't seem to decouple as fluid as they used to. Keep in mind I am running 1.5.1 with a excrements ton of mods so I might just revert back to an older version of KJR. That version doesn't like IR but I will have to live with that until the new DLC comes out and I do a total cleanup of mods. 

I'm a bit wondering why the old KJR should be better here... because (I did read the code for the decoupler reinforcement) it's the same code and it's in the same way ... let's say "suboptimal" ...

[dave1904]

3 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

I'm a bit wondering why the old KJR should be better here... because (I did read the code for the decoupler reinforcement) it's the same code and it's in the same way ... let's say "suboptimal" ...

Its not really old, its a different version. A version that doesn't support IR and that is why I gave your version a shot. It fixed all the issues I had with IR but now I have decoupling bugs. I am not sure about the licences of KJR but I will link you the version I am using that works very well overall but has IR problems. Hope this helps because I would really like IR to work with KJR. 

https://github.com/KSP-RO/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement-Continued/releases

[Rudolf Meier]

9 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

Its not really old, its a different version. A version that doesn't support IR and that is why I gave your version a shot. It fixed all the issues I had with IR but now I have decoupling bugs. I am not sure about the licences of KJR but I will link you the version I am using that works very well overall but has IR problems. Hope this helps because I would really like IR to work with KJR. 

https://github.com/KSP-RO/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement-Continued/releases

yes, this version is very old... with ... quite some bugs if you ask me... and will have a problem with the DLC and as you said with IR

I had to rewrite big portions of the code and ... yes, maybe that's why the decouplers do have this little problem now... but I will have a new version soon and then we will see if it still is a problem

the biggest problem was, that a ship didn't remain stable when you don't do anything (without SAS) ... now it seems to be better... and now I can also fix the next problems

[dave1904]

1 minute ago, Rudolf Meier said:

yes, this version is very old... with ... quite some bugs if you ask me... and will have a problem with the DLC and as you said with IR

I had to rewrite big portions of the code and ... yes, maybe that's why the decouplers do have this little problem now... but I will have a new version soon and then we will see if it still is a problem

the biggest problem was, that a ship didn't remain stable when you don't do anything (without SAS) ... now it seems to be better... and now I can also fix the next problems

Looking forward to it  I will keep track of releases and will keep on testing. Does IR have much future after the update? I know its to soon to tell and the wrong thread but it hopefully will save you alot of work. 

[kcs123]

5 minutes ago, Rudolf Meier said:

the biggest problem was, that a ship didn't remain stable when you don't do anything (without SAS) ... now it seems to be better... and now I can also fix the next problems 

Take your time, you will nail it, probably just some small tweaking (hopefully) is necessary. It's like climbing to montain, just few steps until reaching top.
Anyhow, I tested again same rocket with decoupling issues, and bug is still present in 4.0.7. KJR menu no longer throws nullreference object exception. But I noticed also similar error when I switch from KSC scen to SPH/VAB. It might be related to Blizzy's toolbar and new toolbar controler (new dependency for Blizzy's toolbar). Might not, but seems that this error does not happen without KJR installed. Does not seem to cause any issue on the whole game, though.

But, I also noticed something new with debug version of KJR. Link to album that shows shifting joint points as rocket accelerate then it come back to original position. Also joint color changes over time, I'm not sure if that influence anything to decoupling bug though.

[Rudolf Meier]

10 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Does not seem to cause any issue on the whole game, though.

*hmm* ... ok, but can you look into your logfile and try to find out what it is?

10 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

But, I also noticed something new with debug version of KJR. Link to album that shows shifting joint points as rocket accelerate then it come back to original position. Also joint color changes over time, I'm not sure if that influence anything to decoupling bug though.

the colors -> that's because we have overlapping joints... that's just... sometimes one is over the other and sometimes the other way round

the joint points should not shift, but it is possible they do (when they're under load) and then they are working and trying to pull back to where it should be (KJR today is no longer just stiffening and locking things, but trying to pull back to where it should be according to the original craft plans)

the code for doing this is way more complex, but... after building IR, I know something about joints and I thought I should use what I learned

Edited May 19, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Rudolf Meier said:

*hmm* ... ok, but can you look into your logfile and try to find out what it is?

It seems that it does not throw what assembly is responsible for error. I'm currently attemting to create similar craft that I have issue with, but with only stock parts. And ... it looks like I'm nailed edge of good and bad designed craft. I got similar issue with stability after decoupling as I have with KJR. So, might not be entierly fault on KJRn.

Anyhow, I will try to create craft that works without KJRn, but fail with KJRn. If I succeed I will send you both, craft file and logs, so you can catch what is going on. I can definetly confirm that I don't have this error in SPH/VAB without KJRn. If I'm unable to create proper craft, I will send you just log files.

[Rudolf Meier]

maybe you should wait with your tests for the next version... because one thing is pretty obvious what's not good in the code... I think it's better to fix this first, in order to get useful information

especially because it does have a link to decoupling and I could imagine very well, that what you describe comes from that

Edited May 19, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

oh...

3 hours ago, kcs123 said:

But, I also noticed something new with debug version of KJR. Link to album that shows shifting joint points as rocket accelerate then it come back to original position. Also joint color changes over time, I'm not sure if that influence anything to decoupling bug though.

oh... this one... now I also saw it... ... interesting... I guess that's because of how I attached those lines to the joints... since they are only debug lines, I'm currently ignoring it... but still good to know, more info is always better

ok, I removed the old decoupler and launchclamp reinforcement modules and replaced them with the new system -> version 4.0.8

try it and... let's hope it's good now

Edited May 19, 2019 by Rudolf Meier

[Paadwyn]

Ok, some updates on what I've done so far.

I was moving forward with my plan using Global Construction, everything seemed to be just fine there, until I actually launched the new vessel. This is a fairly big and complex ship (same as posted before). It launched and immediately some of the parts broke free, tossing themselves to the coldness of space.

I uninstalled JKRn and tried again, it didn't cause the parts to immediately break free, but within 10 seconds, the ship started wiggling and eventually blew itself apart. I enabled Autostruts and linked the Toroidal SAS to the heaviest part and that seemed to stabilize it, for the most part.

I went back and reinstalled KJRn, this time temporarily turned on Unbreakable joints for the deployment. It deployed fine.

KJRn managed to keep that ship from wiggling itself apart.

[Rudolf Meier]

14 hours ago, Paadwyn said:

Ok, some updates on what I've done so far.

I was moving forward with my plan using Global Construction, everything seemed to be just fine there, until I actually launched the new vessel. This is a fairly big and complex ship (same as posted before). It launched and immediately some of the parts broke free, tossing themselves to the coldness of space.

I uninstalled JKRn and tried again, it didn't cause the parts to immediately break free, but within 10 seconds, the ship started wiggling and eventually blew itself apart. I enabled Autostruts and linked the Toroidal SAS to the heaviest part and that seemed to stabilize it, for the most part.

I went back and reinstalled KJRn, this time temporarily turned on Unbreakable joints for the deployment. It deployed fine.

KJRn managed to keep that ship from wiggling itself apart.

so? what you say is, that we had a problem while decoupling or undocking? but that it is stable in all other situations?

I will create a new debug version of the latest one and upload it... I will add one option more (controlled via the config file) and one debug output more... I hope we can see then what's going on

@kcs123 had similar problems I think

I'm also working on 3 little bugfixes/improvements for the next version... I hope we can find a good config soon...

[Paadwyn]

Kind of, yes.

When Global Construction finishes and removes the crate and pops the vessel into the world. It might do some funky stuff with joints or connectors.

The shuttle I had docked to it will rip off, the other unused connectors will also pop off. I noticed solar panels flying, but that could be from other parts hitting them. As soon as it popped in I saw it kind of bending before it stabilized. The parts twisting as if they were trying to align properly. Then it became stable and rigid, except for the parts floating away. Presumably, they couldn't handle the stress.

Without KJRn the ship still popped in and did the same bending, twisting, except it didn't stabilize...but no parts broke free. Turning on autostruts stabilized it.

I think this instability is the result of the construction, a few more struts seemed to stop that instability. I will have to test it again though.

In the meantime, I can easily turn on unbreakable joints when I finish construction then turn it back off.

[Rudolf Meier]

ah... interesting... it bends

36 minutes ago, Paadwyn said:

Without KJRn the ship still popped in and did the same bending, twisting, except it didn't stabilize...but no parts broke free. Turning on autostruts stabilized it.

ah, interesting... maybe the KJR joints are too strong in this situation

... the other thing, that's something I'm still thinking about... and I also found another little bug

[kcs123]

Yes, something strange is going on. And only with some specific combination of parts within stage that have to be decoupled.
After first time noticing it, I have created similar craft with only stock parts. And while issue is detectable on my machine all times, it seems that it does not happen on Rudolf's machine. So it is hard to detect and isolate that bug.

If someone can create similar craft that have issues, but only with stock parts (to make debuging easier and faster), send it to Rudolf. It will be easier to solve that issue if he have way to reliably reproduce same bug.

[Rudolf Meier]

It is pretty strange... on some machines, we see explosions and joints getting disconnected (parts fly away), but when we delay all KJR activities for just 2 frames... it seems to work... the question now is, what it is. As soon as I have understood what's going on here, I will present a fix for it. This fix could be just to wait 2 frames, but I don't want to do this without understanding why I do it.

[Paadwyn]

Hmm, not sure about that, but I remember seeing an odd bug when playing Space Engineers where some machines (like mine) would get affected by a voxel bug. We never did figure out what caused it.

Could be differences in things like Intel/AMD, nVidia/ATI, Direct3D/OpenGL, video driver versions, physics engines, clock speed, ram availability and speed...

Since it's waiting just 2 frames, it might be a clock/timing issue.

[Rudolf Meier]

It is for sure some sort of "unplanned" behaviour of the gameengine. I'm now having the problem, that adding a joint wich does nothing... so it has no forces, no limits, just nothing... this let's everything freak out and start oscillating enormously... and I've not found out how to predict such things. I think, it has to do with object without mass or with very small mass... but, I'm just guessing at the moment.

An other idea I have is... if it also works with just 1 frame. Maybe the problem is only, that unity is normally destroying objects delayed. But what this means is unclear to me... do they still affect the scene? When are they used for calculation? Before or after the FixedUpdate call... a lot of questions here and not that much documentation... all I found about those problems is unity forums with questions that don't help  

[Rudolf Meier]

Does someone use KJR Next with RO and has a problem with that? I cannot find anything. But the RO thread mentions, that it doesn't work with it. Does someone have a useful bugreport for me so that I can fix that?

[kcs123]

5 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

Does someone use KJR Next with RO and has a problem with that? I cannot find anything. But the RO thread mentions, that it doesn't work with it. Does someone have a useful bugreport for me so that I can fix that?

Can't help much with this. I can only guess from KJR continued changelog:

--Fix a critical bug involving unphysical forces applied to vessels on load / unload of other vessels and SOI switches
--Fix multijoints breaking IR joints and any other exempted parts from moving
--If physics jolts cause a vessel with launch clamps to shift out of PRELAUNCH then put it back in PRELAUNCH. (and reset launch / MET timers)
--Launch Clamps can now be set to completely rigid
--KJR Continued v3.4.1 now also has basic support for robotic parts. It doesn't do anything to make the joints between them stronger but at least the robotic parts shouldn't get locked up either. 

I assume that RO was having some issues with Launch Clamps, I think that those are only pieces of code added after your fork from ferram. I have no idea what was issue with clamps in RO in the first place, though.

[RaiderMan]

slight off topic, just migrated to this fork of KJR and I have got to say, not even a hiccup. well done good sir.

[Rudolf Meier]

14 minutes ago, RaiderMan said:

slight off topic, just migrated to this fork of KJR and I have got to say, not even a hiccup. well done good sir.

that's not off topic... thanks

but... are you using RO?

[Kerenatus]

Thanks for pushing this great mod into the next level

my 200+m ,600+parts ship can never launch itself without this mod

[kcs123]

56 minutes ago, Kerenatus said:

Thanks for pushing this great mod into the next level

my 200+m ,600+parts ship can never launch itself without this mod

That is ... impressive at least.  Pictures ? And maybe comparison with and without KJRn ?

[Kerenatus]

1 minute ago, kcs123 said:

That is ... impressive at least.  Pictures ? And maybe comparison with and without KJRn ?

I dare not test it without KJRn