SuicidalInsanity

DJA 1946 BDAc AI Dogfight Tournament

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Posted (edited)

@SuicidalInsanity

2 kills, 12 losses. 5 to ground collisions and 2 to wing snaps. Oof. Also 1 ridiculous chase.

 

I think my strategy of high speed interceptors really isn't paying off. xP

Edited by Pds314

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@aleksey444 sorry i tried to enter a competition once for some dumb youtuber and i didnt get accepted because i forgot a radiator on the plane,  from that moment on I hated dogfighting competitions and i still do

 

P.S. This reply was late lol

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On 8/6/2019 at 8:43 PM, Pds314 said:

@SuicidalInsanity

2 kills, 12 losses. 5 to ground collisions and 2 to wing snaps. Oof. Also 1 ridiculous chase.

 

I think my strategy of high speed interceptors really isn't paying off. xP

I had tested my plane before the competition against the L-24
Broadhead as it was available on Kerbal X and noticed a tendency for
the AI to force the Broadhead into the ground while trying to avoid
getting shot from it's six. The overly long chase was most likely
caused from the guns overheating on the Cosmic Star Blazer. I had them set to fire in salvo mode so a bust of three 20mm rounds could take
out a plane in a single hit. The problem was accuracy, I was going
for a stable design but the AI is missing by some distance. Perhaps I
should of had the firing distance set shorter with a shorter extend
distance and more aggressive turning . However even at close range
I'm not seeing the accuracy I would of liked. A different design
overall might have been needed.


After viewing the other entries in action their are two planes that
really stand out the AL-18 Swift and the Agravain FCS Unlocked. The
Swift is also on Kerbal X and having done a test flight the
performance capability is quickly noticed. The massive all moving
surface on the main wings give it a high roll rate with little
sideslip probably due to having two vertical stabilizers. The tight
turn radius with low AoA needed is ideal. For armaments the 30mm
cannons are nose mounted one above the other and set to fire at a
close distance of 675 meters. The AI take advantage of these features
with a extremely low extend distance of only 100 meters allowing the
plane to turnaround and line up on an enemy's tail before that plane
starts it's own turn. Once the distance is closed the 30mm's do their
job well.


The Agravain FCS Unlocked appears to be a standard looking design for
a jet fighter of it's time. Once in combat however it's agility, turn
rate, and accurate firepower make it a top notch performer . To see
this one go up against the Swift should be a close match.

Personal favorite though is the  IA-34 VIII flying wing. Taking
pointers from this design and the AL-23 Boomerang I was able to  
create my first flyable scale replica of  the Ho-229 and learned  
what is needed for a flying wing to be stable. That's what makes
these competitions great always something new can be learned from
other builds.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, OmegaForce said:

a standard looking design for
a jet fighter of it's time

With some sort of modern high lift device:D

For your reference, Agravein has a maximum structural g limit of 50-55g during a level turn, but that number diminished for combination of roll and pitch. It was designed to achieve this at 270m/s SL, but I moved the CoM a little bit backward to make it turn faster

For zephyrion, I limited its speed at 200m/s to see if any fighter will overshoot it and be instantly killed:D. The structural limit is also 50g class but never reached due to severe stall at high speed.

My crafts are here, check it out Archive

Edited by Me1_base

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The overly long chase in the third bout between the AFC and the L-19 was due to the lead AFC running out of ammo and the second AFC having to play catch up.
...
In light of OmegaForce's post and echoing noir's suggestion from earlier in the thread, now that we've seen everything in action, what is everyone's favorite craft, and why?

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

What is everyone's favorite craft, and why?

Your aircraft, @SuicidalInsanity, is my favorite. I've no doubt that it won't take top honors, but the unique shape of the craft deserves a medal of its own. As far as I'm concerned, no other craft will come close to touching it in terms of aesthetics.

Edited by The Dunatian

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Spoiler

Who needs weapons when you have the ground...

...and bad pilots...

I'm not even sure who won...

 

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Bad pilots is one way to put it. This contest has brought out all sorts of AI weirdness, between the multiple rammings, flying into debris, the friendly fire kill...

Round 2, Match 5, between @Alioth81's AL-18 Swift and @Me1_base's Agravain FCS Unlocked:

 

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9 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Bad pilots is one way to put it. This contest has brought out all sorts of AI weirdness, between the multiple rammings, flying into debris, the friendly fire kill...

Round 2, Match 5, between @Alioth81's AL-18 Swift and @Me1_base's Agravain FCS Unlocked:

 

These tournaments become really weird:D, when the profession of the kerbals sitting inside the cockpit is not pilot:sticktongue:(just kidding)

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Posted (edited)

Al18 have a much larger wing area than Agravein, so she susutain a higher angular velocity. especially above 2000m SL. 

Agravein is not intended to fight such crafts because she lacks energy retention ability.

Also don't know why Agravein likes to turn 180degree before engaging in a turn fight.:confused:

Maybe I should take al18's Ai tweaking approach:cool:

Edited by Me1_base

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Agra-vain Custom Paint Scheme:

FnfauVV.pngoA8UQ6C.png

Maybe we can allow contestants to implement custom paint scheme via MM patches:D

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The AL-18 seems to have a weird tendency to always get hit first during the initial merge of the engagement and then tries to make a comeback from there.

It also seems to loose all its ramming  incidents. It is not even set to reckless ;-)

It would be interesting to see at what speeds the engagements take place. If I get some time I want to to look if I can change the behavior of AI trying to turn via a looping which is probably one the worst things you can do in a dogfight.

@Me1_base What mod do you use to have pro-grade/attitude markers projected into the scene?

 

@SuicidalInsanity My favorite plane is your IA-34 VIII because it motivated me to build my own copy which was fun. I am in total agreement with @OmegaForce so I do not need to write a long text. In addition this building exercise motivated me to understand this adverse yaw effect which will benefit my future designs with elevons like Delta wings or highly swept wings. 

Can we have a battle of the flying wings in the end? At least 3 people seem to have one :-)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Alioth81 said:

What mod do you use to have pro-grade/attitude markers projected into the scene?

NAV HUD

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Me1_base - what did you use for the emblem on the wings? Modified texture for the Pwing? Or is it a decal mod?
 

On 8/15/2019 at 11:52 PM, Alioth81 said:

It would be interesting to see at what speeds the engagements take place. If I get some time I want to to look if I can change the behavior of AI trying to turn via a looping which is probably one the worst things you can do in a dogfight.

Can we have a battle of the flying wings in the end? At least 3 people seem to have one :-)

Try increasing roll authority and reducing steer damping?
The Swift is hitting 255-ish m/s on the opening pass, the FCS Unlocked tops out about 180; the Swift looks to retain energy better and combat speeds vary from ~150 (tailing, extended turns) to ~250 (dives, post-turn acceleration). The FCS varied from ~180 to ~100 - it bleeds energy during maneuvers, but can regain it fairly quickly if given a chance to catch it breath.

I can do a flying wing bonus battle. Who/what's the third one though? There's the mine, your Al-23 boomerang, and...? Or were you thinking of the IA-39 that I posted?

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1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Me1_base - what did you use for the emblem on the wings? Modified texture for the Pwing? Or is it a decal mod?

I use decal stickers mod. because it use variant to config the textures, i can easily add textures by MM patches.

 

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

the FCS Unlocked tops out about 180

She has a top speed of 280m/s top speed during manual flights, 240ish at first pass during battle tests start distance of (8km), something strange happened:confused:.

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Under manual control, yes, the FCS can hit 280.
The FCS has the AI Idle Speed set to 150, which is why it can't accelerate to its full potential during AI control - it hit 150 m/s as the planes extended to competition distance, the turnabout leading into the joust reduces its speed to ~110m/s, and it accelerates to 180-190m/s by the time first shots are fired, at least against the Swift. Against a slower opponent would grant more time to accelerate further. Testing with the Idle Speed set to 200 had the FCS hit ~220-230m/s in the first pass.

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7 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Under manual control, yes, the FCS can hit 280.
The FCS has the AI Idle Speed set to 150, which is why it can't accelerate to its full potential during AI control - it hit 150 m/s as the planes extended to competition distance, the turnabout leading into the joust reduces its speed to ~110m/s, and it accelerates to 180-190m/s by the time first shots are fired, at least against the Swift. Against a slower opponent would grant more time to accelerate further. Testing with the Idle Speed set to 200 had the FCS hit ~220-230m/s in the first pass.

Would the result be different if idle speed was changed to 250m/s ? Curious to know:)

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The Swift vs FCS Unlocked match went more one sided then I would of expected. I
can see the advantages gained by the Swift's energy retention but also agree the
AI settings are a major factor. The Swifts steering is maxed out along with a
minimal extend distance this seems to give the Swift an edge in taking control of
the dogfight thus putting the Unlocked into a situation where it must react
defensively. To overcome this the Unlocked needs settings tweaks to fly more
aggressively in my option possibly faster idle, lower distance and high steering
factor.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OmegaForce said:

The Swift vs FCS Unlocked match went more one sided then I would of expected. I
can see the advantages gained by the Swift's energy retention but also agree the
AI settings are a major factor. The Swifts steering is maxed out along with a
minimal extend distance this seems to give the Swift an edge in taking control of
the dogfight thus putting the Unlocked into a situation where it must react
defensively. To overcome this the Unlocked needs settings tweaks to fly more
aggressively in my option possibly faster idle, lower distance and high steering
factor.

 

Done some tweaks and here is the result, to be implemented on my future tournament entry.

AS mentioned by @SuicidalInsanity Just need a little bit speed up to make it more competitive.

Fights are held in lower altitude.

 

Edited by Me1_base

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On 8/17/2019 at 9:24 AM, SuicidalInsanity said:

I can do a flying wing bonus battle. Who/what's the third one though? There's the mine, your Al-23 boomerang, and...? Or were you thinking of the IA-39 that I posted?

I thought about @OmegaForce who seems to have a working flying wing too.

8 hours ago, Me1_base said:

Done some tweaks and here is the result, to be implemented on my future tournament entry.

I believe it would be even better with 30mm guns (or at least the battle would be over sooner. I did not try the 23mm but all the other guns in my opinion need to many hits for a kill. However as the 30mm ballistics are so different you cannot pair it well with smaller guns which are good to force evasive maneuvers.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Alioth81 said:

I thought about @OmegaForce who seems to have a working flying wing too.

Maybe I could build one before begin of fall semester.

 

10 hours ago, Alioth81 said:

I believe it would be even better with 30mm guns (or at least the battle would be over sooner. I did not try the 23mm but all the other guns in my opinion need to many hits for a kill. However as the 30mm ballistics are so different you cannot pair it well with smaller guns which are good to force evasive maneuvers.

30mm are murder cannons:o. Didn't use it because I thought I would fight something flies really fast and 30mm have a low muzzle velocity, but that is not the case:cool:.

Edited by Me1_base

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