Science System Elaboration

[asdfCYBER]

Hello modders,

I'd like to make a request for different types of science, because the current system is far too simple to my liking.
What I would like is that science which is gained in a certain way can only be used to unlock items related to that category. For example, experiments that are run on the ground would give you ground-science that could be used to unlock wheels, landing gear and structural components; experiments in the air would give aerodynamics-science for wings, mk1/2/3 things and air-breathing engines, etc (and combinations of the above of course). Another option is that different biomes give different kinds of science, or that crafts with different components multiply science gained in different categories, or really anything that makes exploration a necessity and makes science more interesting.

Disclaimer: this idea is largely inspired by Factorio with their different science packs that are used for different technologies, but without the whole logistics and with more physics.

 

Edit: the way Astroneer handles science is also quite interesting, where you have to find artifacts, pick them up, and put them in a research chamber that needs power. I don't really see this working in ksp however.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ExtremeTrader
removed request tag as I'm more likely to make this myself

[goldenpsp]

Oo I love these...

 

Sounds like you have a great idea for a mod.  I look forward to seeing what you make of it.

MKS has a system where there are resource "nodes" on bodies that can be picked up and dragged back to base for resources.  You could look into how that is done and probably modify the concept to instead generate science.  Just an idea.

 

Good Luck!

[asdfCYBER]

1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

Sounds like you have a great idea for a mod.  I look forward to seeing what you make of it.

MKS has a system where there are resource "nodes" on bodies that can be picked up and dragged back to base for resources.  You could look into how that is done and probably modify the concept to instead generate science.  Just an idea.

the latter sounds a lot like Astroneer then

Unfortunately I do not have extensive C# knowledge or really any time at all, which is why I made a request for this

[goldenpsp]

7 hours ago, ExtremeTrader said:

the latter sounds a lot like Astroneer then

Unfortunately I do not have extensive C# knowledge or really any time at all, which is why I made a request for this

Well, you have been around awhile, so you know how this usually goes down.

It is extremely rare that there are modders sitting around thinking "man I'd love to spend my free time on a mod, if only I had an idea"  It is generally someone gets an idea, and decides if it will become reality they will write it.

Many modders start with little programming skill and learn as they go.  It really comes down to how dedicated they are to the idea.

So the reality is it's an interesting idea.  If you ever want to see it you likely will need to make it yourself.

[asdfCYBER]

3 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

So the reality is it's an interesting idea.  If you ever want to see it you likely will need to make it yourself.

Absolutely true, I'll look at it in a month or two when I have some more spare time.

[Superfluous J]

For years I've had this idea of "Learn by doing" where you'd unlock tech nodes (or individual parts) by doing things, not by collecting science points. Larger tanks get unlocked by using a sufficiently large number of smaller tanks in a line. Engines get unlocked by either using a cluster of smaller engines (for a larger engine) or using one of the smallest (but still way too large) engines you do have to move a very small craft. Adapters just unlock along with the larger or smaller fuel tanks, and most structural parts are available from the start.

I never got the gumption to code it properly. I fiddled with the idea of making it a contract pack but it got more and more complicated until it wasn't even what I first set out to do. Then I dropped it. As far as I know it still works but I'd not be at all surprised if it didn't.

 

[DStaal]

Kerbal Flying Saucers has a bit of this: An experiment that can be run in the presence of relevant anomalies which has a chance to unlock flying saucer parts.

It's only a small chance however, and you can eventually unlock the parts without it.

 

[asdfCYBER]

13 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

For years I've had this idea of "Learn by doing" where you'd unlock tech nodes (or individual parts) by doing things, not by collecting science points. Larger tanks get unlocked by using a sufficiently large number of smaller tanks in a line. Engines get unlocked by either using a cluster of smaller engines (for a larger engine) or using one of the smallest (but still way too large) engines you do have to move a very small craft. Adapters just unlock along with the larger or smaller fuel tanks, and most structural parts are available from the start.

Interesting, when I get home I'll dust off one of the older ksp versions residing on my hard disk and take a look, but I think the contract system is a bit of a messy way to implement this (for instance, implementation with the achievements mod would be better imho).

 

I'll just dump one of my internal brainstorms here (wall of text incoming):

Science System Elaborations can be done in (as far as I can see) these different ways:

1. Experiments in different biomes/planets and/or situations give different science types that can be used in R&D
2a. Using parts in a certain way unlocks better parts of the same kind (like @5thHorseman's mod)
2b. Achievements unlock better parts related to the achievement
3. Experiments give data (pre-science), and process it in a variety of machines (or machines in different biomes) that need power or other resources
4. Artifacts can be found on planets and can be processed in machines for traditional science (edit: like the flying saucer stuff @DStaal linked above)

I think option 3 is the most viable and fun way to elaborate science, but I'd like to hear your opinions on this. My reasoning behind this is that option 4 is too static in my opinion and is hard to implement unless Kerbal Konstructs is used, option 1 would give problems in early game but does give the most incentive to explore. Option 2 does not give this at all (2a) or very limited (2b). Option 3 however is the most flexible (both in terms of options and in terms of user playstyles) and feasable in early game.

 

So I made a chart of option 3 in comparison with the current system:

1: Can be a normal resource (minimal modding required) or a replacement for science in the sense that it can be picked up by kerbals, transferred to other parts and transmitted.
2: I think using the existing science labs for this is the way to go, but at least an entry-type machine is needed for very early game as the first lab isn't available at start and probably shouldn't be.
3: Not useful to think about in this stage, but I'm planning to have at least science types for each major part category.

While I was braindumping I thought about how building upgrade would fit very well in a research overhaul as in the real world technologies lead to more advanced buildings. I'm not sure whether this should cost raw science or if a technology should be required. but that can be explored at a later stage if this resonates with the community at all.

 

I would like this mod to have at least the following features:

• Experiments give data instead of science
• Different technologies need different science types
• Different science types can be made by processing data in science labs at certain settings (only one type can be made at a time, if you want multiple you will need high-tech labs or many cheaper labs)
• Lab efficiency: higher-tier labs need less data per science, but require far more power
• Fast labs and large setups require serious power supplies (> a solar panel and a battery), perhaps detect mods like Near Future Electrical/Solar and Interstellar and adjust requirements
• Orbital labs have different research speeds from base labs, same thing for bases on atmospheric and non-atmospheric bodies
• Science multipliers are now data multipliers
• Mod-friendly and support for most existing mods if feasable (I remember a mod with larger labs that would fit perfectly, anything that introduces more science should have at least a default data config)

 

As far as I can see (maybe an experienced modder can see more) these are the modding challenges:

• Changing science to data for all science producing things and the science multipliers, might have to define my own module for the latter if I use data as a resource
• Changing science to multiple science versions (probably placeholders at first as a proof of concept) in the techtree
• Changing labs from science enhancing to converting data+power to science (a converter config module is probably the easiest, but a gui with production sliders (10% this, 40% that, rest disabled to conserve power) is neater)
  • Lab efficiencies should be trivial
  • Lab location speed differences may need their own module too
• Changing technology requirements
• Changing gui and code to multiple science types instead of one (probably the most difficult part)
• Mod support (trivial with modulemanager)

 

I'll probably make a development thread SOON^TM for this because I like this idea more the more I think about it. Just don't expect quick development.

 

EDIT 2: there is now a development thread where you can ask questions and suggest features:

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ExtremeTrader