ESA, JAXA and CSA to build optionally manned lunar lander

[insert_name]

An optionally manned lunar lander is being developed for the gateway to land on the moon and collect samples, and return to the gateway, with a reusable ascent stage and potential for manned missions

https://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/Exploration/Developing_a_high-performance_rocket_motor_for_the_Heracles_mission_to_the_Moon

[tater]

90kg of payload to the surface, and they think this can be used for crew? That's a lot of engines...

[Lisias]

1 minute ago, tater said:

90kg of payload to the surface, and they think this can be used for crew? 

Only that? I would need two launches to get myself there - and I surely wouldn't like doing that!

[RocketSquid]

On 5/18/2019 at 10:48 AM, tater said:

90kg of payload to the surface, and they think this can be used for crew? That's a lot of engines...

If we assume these engines have exactly the needed TWR, you'd need about six of them to get two astronauts to the lunar surface, probably more. This seems like it'll get out of hand.

EDIT: this is the ascent engine, it has nothing to do with the 90 kg payload. The more relevant number is the 15 kg of samples, meaning you'd need more than six times as many as my earlier back of the envelope numbers suggested. We'd be looking at the N-1's little brother.

Edited May 20, 2019 by RocketSquid

[tater]

It's a study for a 10+ tonne lander (wet mass), with a sample return capability (to Gateway).

I'll believe it when I see it, hopefully it's better than the awful Orion SM.

[Shpaget]

If I'm reading the article in OP correctly, 15 kg refers to soil sample mass budget for return from Moon surface to Earth.

Also, 90 kg refers to science instruments on top of a rover. Assuming the rover is some 200 kg, the total of ~300 kg is enough for a big guy in a heavy suit.

[RocketSquid]

13 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

If I'm reading the article in OP correctly, 15 kg refers to soil sample mass budget for return from Moon surface to Earth.

Also, 90 kg refers to science instruments on top of a rover. Assuming the rover is some 200 kg, the total of ~300 kg is enough for a big guy in a heavy suit.

Yeah, but the engine they're talking about is the ascent engine. The descent engine is one-way, and then the ascent stage relays samples from the rover to orbit.

[tater]

They have not a lot of detail on specifics since none of it is built.

Looked like one page suggested the engine they are discussing might be 30kN. I saw nothing about propellants, etc.

[insert_name]

25 minutes ago, tater said:

They have not a lot of detail on specifics since none of it is built.

Looked like one page suggested the engine they are discussing might be 30kN. I saw nothing about propellants, etc.

they did say that it would have an electrically driven turbopump, and that it was designed to be reusable