KSP Loading... Preview: Breaking Ground - Axis Groups

[Gargamel]

1 hour ago, AVaughan said:

@St4rdust and @nestor please provide a alternative hi-res link for videos where users will want to read the test/ look at fine details.  I'm on a relatively low bandwidth (and high ping time) connection atm.  Twitter doesn't seem to provide any options to adjust the video quality, it just defaults to something that doesn't have buffering which for me atm seems to be 144p.  I would much rather watch on youtube or vimeo, where I can set the quality to 720p or 1080p.

I would just be happy to see it on youtube at all, twitter won't play video for me (others have reported this too). 

[nestor]

I’ll try to clarify.

In this video we are only showing Axis Groups, not Action Sets. 

I mentioned Action Sets just to answer a specific question.

The difference between Action Groups and Axis groups is that Actions Groups are used for toggling values and use one key. Axis Groups are used to change a value gradually and uses two keys. For example in this video we are changing the angle for 3 hinges using Axis Groups.  

For robotics you can use both Action Groups and Axis Groups. For example you can assign an Action Group to Max or Min angle or you can use Axis Groups to move the angle gradually. 

 

[EchoLima]

Could we get a way to see action groups in flight? It would be hard to remember them all otherwise. 

[Foxster]

That craft aint going anywhere. Terrier isp is too low at SL 

[Poodmund]

6 hours ago, nestor said:

I’ll try to clarify.

In this video we are only showing Axis Groups, not Action Sets. 

I mentioned Action Sets just to answer a specific question.

The difference between Action Groups and Axis groups is that Actions Groups are used for toggling values and use one key. Axis Groups are used to change a value gradually and uses two keys. For example in this video we are changing the angle for 3 hinges using Axis Groups.  

For robotics you can use both Action Groups and Axis Groups. For example you can assign an Action Group to Max or Min angle or you can use Axis Groups to move the angle gradually. 

 

I don't think anyone had any issue with the understanding of that, I think primarily what people are concerned about is that the Axis Group keys are the same keys that trigger the fundamental movement controls of a vessel and that when you use the keys to trigger the Axis Group you'll also trigger the movement that coincides with that key.

I don't think this is the case due to Action Sets existing and how they can operate but this was not explained in the video or to any degree in the post.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Poodmund

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, Poodmund said:

I don't think anyone had any issue with the understanding of that, I think primarily what people are concerned about is that the Axis Group keys are the same keys that trigger the fundamental movement controls of a vessel and that when you use the keys to trigger the Axis Group you'll also trigger the movement that coincides with that key.

I don't think this is the case due to Action Sets existing and how they can operate but this was not explained in the video or to any degree in the post.

Especially since many have mapped the IJKL keys to rover movement. RCS isn’t that much of an issue since it can be switched on/off, but it’s a bit more problematic with rovers, especially when rovers are going to be a main application of robotics.

[Poodmund]

9 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

... especially when rovers are going to be a main application of robotics.

I disgree... as a long time user of Infernal Robotics, I primarily have used it for creating folding up satellites that then unfurl in space as to reduce the size footprint to fit within heatshields.

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, Poodmund said:

I disgree... as a long time user of Infernal Robotics, I primarily have used it for creating folding up satellites that then unfurl in space as to reduce the size footprint to fit within heatshields.

Main != primary. Even if it isn’t the primary application, robotics will still be used extensively surface vehicles, if only for base building.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Kerbart

[klgraham1013]

34 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Main != primary.

Umm...

MAIN

adjective

1. chief in size, extant, or importance; principal; leading.

PRIMARY

adjective

1. first or highest in rank or importance; chief; principal.

[VoidCosmos]

Coooooool!!!!! Now

 SQUAD great job!!!!!!! You made me hype for the DLC!!!!

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Nigel J. Cardozo

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Umm...

MAIN

adjective

1. chief in size, extant, or importance; principal; leading

Thanks for looking it up and proving my point.

[Pthigrivi]

Well I think we can all agree that robotics will often be used on the ground.
 

13 hours ago, nestor said:

The difference between Action Groups and Axis groups is that Actions Groups are used for toggling values and use one key. Axis Groups are used to change a value gradually and uses two keys. For example in this video we are changing the angle for 3 hinges using Axis Groups.  

For robotics you can use both Action Groups and Axis Groups. For example you can assign an Action Group to Max or Min angle or you can use Axis Groups to move the angle gradually. 

This seems pretty clarifying. What are we still trying to understand? How it is we won't run out of key-bindings? Capslock maybe?

Edited May 26, 2019 by Pthigrivi

[GluttonyReaper]

7 hours ago, Poodmund said:

I don't think anyone had any issue with the understanding of that, I think primarily what people are concerned about is that the Axis Group keys are the same keys that trigger the fundamental movement controls of a vessel and that when you use the keys to trigger the Axis Group you'll also trigger the movement that coincides with that key.

I don't think this is the case due to Action Sets existing and how they can operate but this was not explained in the video or to any degree in the post.

It appears you can set the axis groups to the standard movement controls (as in this video, where the arm is mapped specifically to IJKL), but it looks you can just as easily map them to un-used keys through custom axis (as seen in the action menu in this video). Like I'm pretty sure I'd set those to be on the keypad or something, which naturally wouldn't interfere with anything else. Whether or not any of the robotics have default mapping... we have no idea yet.

I'm glad to see the system looks nice and complex - it looks like it's one of those things that's easier to understand through experimentation than watching a video, which I'm looking forward to doing  

[Poodmund]

Just like Action Groups Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. are just triggered by the number keys across the top of the keyboard, I just expected that the Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. Axis Groups to be triggered by same number keys.

[pandaman]

@nestor  So, as i understand it the Action Groups differ from the Axis groups a bit like, for example, an electric door...

The Action Group opens and/or closes the door fully, that's it, no halfway open etc.

The Axis Group however gives a way to open the door by either user defined pre-determined increments (5 or 20 degrees at a time for example) or continiuosly (while the button is held down) or ideally options for both methods.

 

[FleshJeb]

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

How it is we won't run out of key-bindings? Capslock maybe?

Alt + <number keys>, and Alt + <translation keys> are still unused.

[GluttonyReaper]

1 hour ago, Poodmund said:

Just like Action Groups Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. are just triggered by the number keys across the top of the keyboard, I just expected that the Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. Axis Groups to be triggered by same number keys.

That would make sense... except as has been mentioned, you need two keys for each axis (e.g. left/right). Again, no idea what the defaults would be (if any), but I'm assuming they're rebindable.

(on that note, it'd be nice to be able to rebind the custom action groups, although I suppose that's an entirely different feature!)

[OHara]

1 hour ago, FleshJeb said:

and Alt + <translation keys> are still unused.

Interestingly, and usefully (and adjacent to the tread topic) the Alt- modifier acts to trim the set-point depending on the function (translate vs turn)
not the key, (A vs J) as you say.

I use  IJKL for both Translate_Up/Down/Left/Right for RCS,  and for  Steer_Left/Right and Wheel_Forward/Reverse.
'Alt-I' acts just like plain 'I'  for the RCS, but will trim the drive-forward on wheels (very useful for driving rovers over long distances).

52 minutes ago, GluttonyReaper said:

rebind the custom action groups

The custom action groups we already have using 1-0 at the top of the main keyboard, if that is what you mean, can be changed in Settings:Input:Vessel

Edited May 26, 2019 by OHara

[nestor]

1 hour ago, pandaman said:

@nestor  So, as i understand it the Action Groups differ from the Axis groups a bit like, for example, an electric door...

The Action Group opens and/or closes the door fully, that's it, no halfway open etc.

The Axis Group however gives a way to open the door by either user defined pre-determined increments (5 or 20 degrees at a time for example) or continiuosly (while the button is held down) or ideally options for both methods.

 

Yes, that’s correct.

 

Custom n for Axis Groups are unassigned and can be assigned in the Input settings.  As others have said there aren’t many keys unassigned in KSP. 

[razark]

So the "Axis" groups are not actually related to the existing translation axes?

 

4 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Capslock maybe?

Capslock toggles the fine control mode on.

Edited May 26, 2019 by razark

[StrandedonEarth]

There's also the numpad...

[fourfa]

^^ yes, can Numpad 0-9 be bound separately from top row 0-9?

[StrandedonEarth]

I believe so. Precise Node/Maneuver made use of the numpad

[Pthigrivi]

22 minutes ago, razark said:

Capslock toggles the fine control mode on.

Oh that’s right. Forgot that was spoken for. 

[zer0Kerbal]

I just want to be able to deploy stuff...

5 hours ago, Poodmund said:

Just like Action Groups Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. are just triggered by the number keys across the top of the keyboard, I just expected that the Custom 01, Custom 02, Custom 03 etc. Axis Groups to be triggered by same number keys.

well - there is <ALT>,<CNTRL>,<SHFT>, and all sorts of combinations of these plus if one really wants to get all Bill on it - there is <LALT>,<LCNTRL>,<LSHFT>, <RALT>,<RCNTRL>,<RSHFT>.

 

so <ALT><1> or <RALT><LSHFT><4> - all are different keyboard scan codes. And there are many (relatively) unassigned Fkeys(with modifier keys as well).

Edited May 26, 2019 by zer0Kerbal