JadeOfMaar

Rational Resources [v0.8.5] [Jun 11, 2019]

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Posted (edited)

64Cpxfj.png

Rational Resources is designed to operate on the Community Resource Pack or the WBI Classic Stock resources and to strip out the entirely random resource distributions and to apply distribution templates (carefully configured groups of resource distributions) according to the logically expected class and composition of a body.

Rational Resources is inspired by Realistic Atmospheres made by @OhioBob and is part of the JNSQ (the planet pack) experience.

While this mod is installed, un-configured bodies will have no resources at all.

This mod may inflate your ModuleManager cache quite a bit.

Notice that the logo image tells the following:

  • Mun has a sizeable portion of MetalOre and Oxygen, but no Water (will be handled by biome specific config) and no Uraninite.
  • Kerbin has a sizeable portion of Rock and Silicates, and there's a display for crust, ocean and atmo.
  • Duna has a sizeable portion of CO2 in crust and atmo (not in legend), MetalOre, RareMetals and Uraninite, but no Minerals or Silicates.

This mod enables planet makers to easily assign these distribution templates to their planet packs and skip the headaches of figuring out and writing the individual nodes themselves, and assorting all of their writings into several per-resource config files.

Active CRP Resources

  • Surface and Atmosphere
    Ammonia, CarbonDioxide, ExoticMinerals, Gypsum, LqdHe3, Hydrates, Hydrogen, MetalOre, Methane, Minerals, Nitrogen, Ore, Oxygen, RareMetals, Rock, Silicates, Substrate, Uraninite, Water.
  • Ocean
    LqdAmmonia, LqdCO2, LqdMethane, LqdNitrogen, LqdOxygen, Water.
  • Star
    Antimatter, Karborundum, LqdHe3, Hydrogen, LqdDeuterium.

The resources above are preferred and used. The stock science parts Surface Scanner and Atmosphere Fluid Spectro-Variometer are patched to display them all. Ocean resources only show non-zero values when the scanner vehicle is splashed.

The Star series templates apply resource bands to a narrow and general classification of stars, automatically making them all viable as mining destinations for interstellar vessels. The expected members of this seres are: Yellow; Red Dwarf; Red Giant; Blue Giant. Due to a very nasty bug in stock, any resource bands around a star can only have a a maximum span of somewhere under 2 Gigameters.

WBI Classic Stock system support: Rational Resources shows in the WBI play mode switch UI.

tSlMA4h.jpg

Assigning a template to a planet is as easy as:

Spoiler

+PLANETARY_RESOURCE:HAS[#Tag[SrfRock]]
{
	@PlanetName = Kerbin
	@Tag = Applied
}
+PLANETARY_RESOURCE:HAS[#Tag[AtmTerra]]
{
	@PlanetName = Kerbin
	@Tag = Applied
}
+PLANETARY_RESOURCE:HAS[#Tag[OcnTerra]]
{
	@PlanetName = Kerbin
	@Tag = Applied
}

 

Current templates

HK5B4D8.png

ISRU

With omnipotent Ore being stripped of its Godhood, the following ISRU chains are proposed and encouraged for use by seasoned modders. Ore abundance is capped to 5% and its presence chance to 80%. It will be inconvenient for most players... but it will still be around.

Ore tanks will be changed, at least, to hold the cryogenic input resources.

The configs for these do not exist yet. Some parts may be added with this mod eventually, namely the cryogenic converter and distinct scanner parts.

0hqYfU8.pnguzB4Ybl.png

Compatibility

Due to the listed resources and the nature of Rational Resources, compatibility instantly extends between configured planet packs and the following mods:

  • Kerbalism (consumable resources only)
  • TAC Life Support
  • Near Future Tech suite
  • Hydrolox rocketry mods (including BlueDog Design Bureau, Cryogenic Engines, Kerbal Atomics)
  • Potential Methalox rocketry mods

Some resources and their distributions are conditionally spared while the rest are removed.

Spared resources include ArgonGas, XenonGas, Karbonite and Karborondum (condition: Karbonite's specific placements like the overabundance on Eve are disallowed).

Purged resources include Dirt (used by MKS alone but supplanted with more Rock) and any other mod that adds resources (and especially extremely handwaved ones) such as The Gold Standard. But a provision exists to allow such resources to not be purged.

Pre-release: Now. Please delete "RealisticResources" before installing.

DOWNLOAD

Edited by JadeOfMaar
renamed mod

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The title images is one of my favorite parts. Regardless, this should make adding resources much easier for planet pack makers.

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4 minutes ago, DeltaDizzy said:

this should make adding resources much easier for planet pack makers.

Should? ....It will. ;) Example is in the spoiler under Active Resources.

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Posted (edited)

This sounds really cool, but I'm a bit confused...

I'm planning on using USI-LS and JNSQ - will I still be able to use ISRU to convert Ore to Fertilizer or is there some other method I must use now?

If it won't work (or even "if it will, but not a well") is there a way to utilize the new Converter Module to create Fertilizer?

Edited by Tyko

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2 hours ago, Tyko said:

This sounds really cool, but I'm a bit confused...

I'm planning on using USI-LS and JNSQ - will I still be able to use ISRU to convert Ore to Fertilizer or is there some other method I must use now?

If it won't work (or even "if it will, but not a well") is there a way to utilize the new Converter Module to create Fertilizer?

On 5/30/2019 at 12:04 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

ISRU

With omnipotent Ore being stripped of its Godhood, the following ISRU chains are proposed and encouraged for use by seasoned modders. Ore abundance is capped to 5% and its presence chance to 80%. It will be inconvenient for most players... but it will still be around. 

Ore will be harder to find but it will still be around. ;) I only intend to add and remove fuel modules at the Convert-O-Trons so I won't touch the mini's Fertilizer module. Thanks for bringing this up. I might have otherwise written my configs to blindly delete all modules.

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How far down the rabbit hole are you going to go? Pressure vessels, phase-change thermals, gas stoichiometry, etc

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@Electrocutor I don't plan to go any further than resource placement and giving Hydrolox and Methalox rocketry mods more reason to exist. :sticktongue: I have no desire to learn to write plugins.

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Following. Having a better structure for resources for kerbalism interests me

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I am a KSPI-E player and need resources more than of those basics.

I will be needing resources like deuterium, Helium-3, Alumina, IntakeLqd, Regolith.....basically every resources that were included in CRP.

Will I still finding those after I installed realistic resources?

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I just wanted to note that if we’re assuming “minerals” is various salts containing sodium, potassium, phosphorus, etc duna would be rich in them, as mars has very high concentrations.

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11 hours ago, Iso-Polaris said:

I am a KSPI-E player and need resources more than of those basics.

I will be needing resources like deuterium, Helium-3, Alumina, IntakeLqd, Regolith.....basically every resources that were included in CRP.

Will I still finding those after I installed realistic resources?

That....Unfortunately, no, you won't. I'm pretty sure most players don't use KSPI (and that includes myself). But I have made a framework (this mod) for conveniently placing resources en masse per celestial class. The void remains for someone who loves KSPI, knows resources well enough and likes to manipulate (not just use) resources to write the placements and populate the templates.

 

23 minutes ago, RocketSquid said:

I just wanted to note that if we’re assuming “minerals” is various salts containing sodium, potassium, phosphorus, etc duna would be rich in them, as mars has very high concentrations.

Oh, that's cool. I did not know or guess that well. I'll definitely do something about that.

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1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Oh, that's cool. I did not know or guess that well. I'll definitely do something about that.

The Phoenix lander showed that polar soil had similar mineral concentrations to a fertile terrestrial soil (some of the scientists compared it to garden soil), but also had enough perchlorate to badly damage most terrestrial plants. Curiosity, spirit, and opportunity all found moderate concentrations of various minerals, from ~0.5% for potassium and phosphorus salts to ~7% for calcium oxide. 

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Interesting. Looks like I'll need to write a cfg for Nertea's Far Future Technology, since it populates a few resources in atmospheres or in space near certain celestial bodies (such as low above Jool). Thanks to the way you've designed this, I feel like I should be able to figure things out fairly easily.

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What was that other mod you guys were working on that redoes the stock system?

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4 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

Interesting. Looks like I'll need to write a cfg for Nertea's Far Future Technology, since it populates a few resources in atmospheres or in space near certain celestial bodies (such as low above Jool). Thanks to the way you've designed this, I feel like I should be able to figure things out fairly easily.

Well it's intended to be quite easy to do that now. ;)

LqdHe3 is kinda already in there (only its random global placement is allowed, which has very low values) and LqdHydrogen's global placement is spared, and it's present in atmospheres. Exosphere placements are probably all stripped out and antimatter might not be found at the added planets.

2 hours ago, The-Doctor said:

What was that other mod you guys were working on that redoes the stock system?

Looks like you found it.

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It looked like Antimatter, LqdHe3, and LqdHydrogen were already spared in the current config.  The only one I had to add was LqdDeuterium.  Of course, it's going to be a long time before I get to this stuff in the tech tree...

 

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1 hour ago, panarchist said:

Does this mean there will be engine configs for fuels other than LqdFuel? Or how does that fit in? I feel like I missed something, but I didn't see any dependencies or support on RealFuels or any other alternative fuel mod.

Been playing around with JNSQ since yesterday afternoon, and I'm a big fan of GPP. This is outstanding - you guys did some phenomenal work on this, I love it!

I'm considering engine configs, yes. However, I don't play KSP much, as of late, so these configs might not happen. If they do happen, they may be few and primarily for setting the bar for other modders to run with. I intend to target:

  • The stock NERV. I was introduced to a PDF that details the concept of a fueling an NTR with CO2, Water, Methane, N2 and even Argon. Most of which will be available on Duna and other rocky inner worlds through RR, especially CO2.
  • Maybe Nertea's NF Aeronautics atomic engines as well. Changing atomic engines in general that will introduce the dependencies on Kerbal Actuators (for 3+ engine modes on one part) and Plume Party, and I'll have to watch out for conflict with Kerbal Atomics.
  • No other stock engines. Nertea's CryoEngines are sufficient by themselves.
  • @damonvv Tundra Exploration ;) (apart from engines, Starship will have an excuse to sweat methane).
  • Maybe NF Launch Vehicles engines (they contain the "Raptor" keyword and that tells me they're entirely if not largely inspired by Methalox engines).

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22 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I'm considering engine configs, yes. However, I don't play KSP much, as of late, so these configs might not happen. If they do happen, they may be few and primarily for setting the bar for other modders to run with. I intend to target:

  • The stock NERV. I was introduced to a PDF that details the concept of a fueling an NTR with CO2, Water, Methane, N2 and even Argon. Most of which will be available on Duna and other rocky inner worlds through RR, especially CO2.
  • Maybe Nertea's NF Aeronautics atomic engines as well. Changing atomic engines in general that will introduce the dependencies on Kerbal Actuators (for 3+ engine modes on one part) and Plume Party, and I'll have to watch out for conflict with Kerbal Atomics.
  • No other stock engines. Nertea's CryoEngines are sufficient by themselves.
  • @damonvv Tundra Exploration ;) (apart from engines, Starship will have an excuse to sweat methane).
  • Maybe NF Launch Vehicles engines (they contain the "Raptor" keyword and that tells me they're entirely if not largely inspired by Methalox engines).

Wouldn't engine configs to be able to switch hidrolox engines to methalox made sense, specially before/if someone makes dedicated methalox parts? I don't know what mod authors would think though. Besides ISRU methane may (or may not?) fill a niche between the density of LOX and having a cryogenic fuel that isn't as bulky as LH2. Or maybe it doesn't have much of a performance difference with LOX and it's useful just for a more realistic ISRU? I really don't know. Nertea was against using methalox in his mods.

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IMHO engine configs would probably make the most sense if they were in a different mod. I also recall reading Nertea's long post on the subject, and I remember it making sense to me at the time.

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@juanml82 @Norcalplanner I clean forgot that Nertea is against having to deal with other propellants for anything at all. I read that as well. That idea sounds better and I should remember it: Leave the engine modding to other mods.

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I'd actually like this sort of intermediate option between RF / KSPI-E in one corner and Stock / one resource to rule them all. So I'd have a nuclear thermal (or chemical) engine with different options of propellants but not so many that it becomes so much of an issue.

So I build a kind of generic big lander which I can still put in orbit because the mass fraction is larger than real life, and I may still have to choose a propellant based on performance, boil-off, density and available resources at the destination. So maybe the same basic lander will end up with different performance in different bodies due different fuels. But instead of a dozen different options, as in RF or KSPI-E, it's just narrowed to:

LFO: standard, high trust, relative low isp, high density, no boil-off, maybe with a realistic name (aerozine 50?) instead of generic. If I got this right, a bit complex to manufacture in situ.

LH2: lower thrust, high isp, low density (so huge tanks), boil-off. Needs water or actual hydrogen to manufacture, so having water at the destination matters.

Methane: in between LFO and LH2 (right?), no boil off, bigger but no huge tanks. Available or manufacturable in certain destinations.

Ammonia and CO2: different stats than LH2, easy to manufacture or just obtain in specific destinations. Would a CO2 liquefying kit be simpler and lighter than the whole LFO stuff, if someone was to make parts for that? So a Duna/Mars/somewhere-else biome hopper would be lighter if it uses CO2 than an LFO biome hopper?

Monoprop: maybe rename to hydrazine and just have one monoprop to rule them all for simplicity.

There is still variety and gameplay decisions to make, but it doesn't include cycling through dozens of similar fuels and wondering "what's the difference between RP1, MMH or UDHM and why should I care". But I don't know how mod authors would feel about other mods changing their fuel setups and, if I wanted to make a patch for my personal use, I'm not sure how to make it anyway

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@juanml82 Methane indeed compromises between LFO and LH2, and performance can be squeezed from it as by SpaceX (afaik). I tend to raise the thrust in an LFO engine converted to Methalox (well, Raptalox-- the WBI Classic Stock form) for a bit of pure gameplay incentive.

I'm not familiar wit the idea of LF being compared to Aerozine 50, only to RP-1 (My not knowing RealFuels things).

I know nothing about Ammonia as a fuel but I know it has great utility in other applications so I draw emphasis to it.

Carbon Dioxide appears to be easily liquefied by only pressuring it enough, then it's easily stored in an environment akin to Mars' surface. It could indeed be more mass-effective to rely on a pressurization device and CO2 NTR than to bring drills and a normal ISRU. The CO2 may even refill much faster than LFO can be generated in the same craft. Unfortunately I read that the Isp range of a CO2 NTR would be quite similar to LFO engines, likely the consequence of this being slightly denser than water. I don't know yet what Ammonia + CO2 are good for, neither how good at it, but I know of a concept for a Martian air-breathing engine that can burn Magnesium and CO2.

I regularly equate MonoProp to Hydrazine.

I also have no sure answer to how part makers may respond to their mods being tweaked by mine or for mine. :P I have plenty experience tweaking engines so I may drop some such configs to give you a headstart.

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Posted (edited)

I've been thinking about that wall-of-resources thing and was wondering if you've implemented some sort of system that only 'initializes' resources that are actually used by mods?

If so, you could use that to slightly scale up Ore abundance if no other resources are initialized so RR is 'Stockpatible' yet ready for any mod that can make use of it. It would also reduce overstimulation (insofar that's a thing for regular peeps) of those installing RR or JNSQ for the first time.

With regards to engine configs: Depends on whether you want the scope of RR to contain that or if you want it to be a framework others can build on top of. I for one am interested in any tweaks/overhauls of the stock ore system, and it looks like RR could be the 'gateway drug' to stuff like RealFuels (which goes way too far IMO).

Edit: In the end the key aspect is not the name of the resources or fuels and whatnot, it's whether it's enjoyable/challenging to play with in a way that you cannot get with vanilla. Though I admit I'm biased on that one as a User Experience guy.

Edited by Jognt

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