JadeOfMaar

Rational Resources [v0.8.5] [Jun 11, 2019]

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50 minutes ago, Jognt said:

I've been thinking about that wall-of-resources thing and was wondering if you've implemented some sort of system that only 'initializes' resources that are actually used by mods?

I am not doing that, sorry. Just delete my scanner patch in RealisticResources/CRP/ or uninstall this mod. It's not worth the trouble to write the detection configs necessary for that.

This mod isn't setup to leave Ore alone if CRP is not installed. But then there's no purpose to this mod when CRP is not installed. I've thought of making an easy mode, and I will provide it.

I may have said this in the JNSQ thread concerning engine configs in addition to my agreement with @Norcalplanner above. I'm not terribly inclined to make patches to change people's mods and will likely only touch the stock NERV to make it use CO2(abundant on Duna) or Methane (can still be manufactured on Duna).

Gateway drug: Definitely. :P

 

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17 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I am not doing that, sorry. Just delete my scanner patch in RealisticResources/CRP/ or uninstall this mod. It's not worth the trouble to write the detection configs necessary for that.

 

Oh I didn’t mean it as a ‘for me’. I was just thinking about the easiest way to implement it for myself and figured I’d mention it here in case you thought it’d be a good idea in general. 

In case you’re interested in my plan:

Spoiler

 

I’ll probably give the @part stuff that adds the resources a NEEDS[RRresourcenamehere] ending and for mods that use some of them I’ll do a FOR[RRresourcenamehere]. 

Not sure if it’ll work but it should be fairly simple. 

I’ll find a way :P 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2019 at 7:55 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

That....Unfortunately, no, you won't. I'm pretty sure most players don't use KSPI (and that includes myself). But I have made a framework (this mod) for conveniently placing resources en masse per celestial class. The void remains for someone who loves KSPI, knows resources well enough and likes to manipulate (not just use) resources to write the placements and populate the templates.

In JNSQ forum, it is to be said that realistic resources " grant increased compatibility between planet packs and mods that use certain resources, and encourage the use of mods that use advanced resources. "

I would think that KSPI is a mod that utilizes advanced resources.

And also, KSPI-E might be more popular than you think it would be. At least from my prospective, me and ALL of my frineds who play KSP consider KSPI a cricial mod, without that mod, we would quit KSP long times ago.

That is to be said, despite you have all the authority of how YOUR mod is made, but I would really recommand to add the compatibility for KSPI-E.

I would do it myself if not for the INSANE amount of resource type makes it a little beyond my skill set.

 

In the mean time, I will submit a requst to FreeThinker and see if that would be possible to add compatibily on that side.

Edited by Iso-Polaris

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I now have yet another reason to use JNSQ

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2 hours ago, Iso-Polaris said:

In JNSQ forum, it is to be said that realistic resources " grant increased compatibility between planet packs and mods that use certain resources, and encourage the use of mods that use advanced resources. "

I would think that KSPI is a mod that utilizes advanced resources.

And also, KSPI-E might be more popular than you think it would be. At least from my prospective, me and ALL of my frineds who play KSP consider KSPI a cricial mod, without that mod, we would quit KSP long times ago.

That is to be said, despite you have all the authority of how YOUR mod is made, but I would really recommand to add the compatibility for KSPI-E.

I would do it myself if not for the INSANE amount of resource type makes it a little beyond my skill set.

 

In the mean time, I will submit a requst to FreeThinker and see if that would be possible to add compatibily on that side.

I won't argue KSPI is more popular than I think it is.Thanks for your example, and I appreciate it. I won't reject it if someone approaches me for guidance and to offer the necessary configs but it's the same insane numbers of config nodes to write: each unique combination of every CRP resource * harvester types (4) * the number of templates or planet classes which may increase at any given time, and I don't know planetary composition nearly well enough to do justice to KSPI. I could fudge numbers to keep things somewhat random and still playable but I don't want to be responsible for all that. KSPI is a few leagues beyond me.

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How about adding a "precise mode" to the surface scanner which allows you to select a single resource so the PAW becomes a bit more clear? Can be quite taxing to keep looking at the huge list of resources while just one or two are relevant at the same time.
The precise mode would not replace the current version but it could be toggle-able with a button to switch between "general" and "precise" modes :)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

How about adding a "precise mode" to the surface scanner which allows you to select a single resource so the PAW becomes a bit more clear? Can be quite taxing to keep looking at the huge list of resources while just one or two are relevant at the same time.
The precise mode would not replace the current version but it could be toggle-able with a button to switch between "general" and "precise" modes :)

That cannot be done. The stock surface scanner has always had the behavior that you have met, and that behavior is engineered for users of USI MKS (and I suppose, base-builder players at large), to whom, the presence of every resource is always important. You would have to open the config file: GameData\RealisticResources\CRP\zScanners.cfg and delete or comment out the modules you don't want.

I've recycled a custom part that I made (repainted old-school HECS probe core) for another mod way back and I will be off-loading the arrays of resource readings onto them. I will no longer patch the Atmosphere sensor and the Surface Scanner, but the Surface Scanner will still show the USI-focused selection because CRP itself adds them there.

You might like this update @Jognt

Side note: They will, of course, be usable in Classic Stock mode.

veedoda.png

xjfXBud.png

Spoiler

In case anyone asks, the host part is the Restock 1.25m probe core.

 

Edited by JadeOfMaar

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2019 at 6:04 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

0hqYfU8.pnguzB4Ybl.png

 

KSPIE actualy has very similar conversions, except it requires resources in its gas state rather their LIquid state when used for conversion. Cryogenic resources should be either be stored or used for propulsion/fuel but in order to use in in chemical pocesses it realisticly should first be converted into a gas where it is reactive.

Edited by FreeThinker

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2 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I won't argue KSPI is more popular than I think it is.Thanks for your example, and I appreciate it. I won't reject it if someone approaches me for guidance and to offer the necessary configs but it's the same insane numbers of config nodes to write: each unique combination of every CRP resource * harvester types (4) * the number of templates or planet classes which may increase at any given time, and I don't know planetary composition nearly well enough to do justice to KSPI. I could fudge numbers to keep things somewhat random and still playable but I don't want to be responsible for all that. KSPI is a few leagues beyond me.

Good new FreeThinker is starting to look into it

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Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2019 at 5:12 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

I regularly equate MonoProp to Hydrazine.

I agree that MonoProp and Hydrazine can be equated as they have similar density and are not cryogenic but what about Oxidizer? Kerbalism Treats is a Hydrogen Peroxide (HTP) which I agree with as it also has about the same denity and is non cryogenic but you appear to equate Oxidizer with LqdOxygen, which from a realism perspective is unlealistic as   LqdOxygen is cryogenic while any non cryogenic oxidizer needs something additional to Oxygen to be stable.

Edited by FreeThinker

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12 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

KSPIE actualy has very similar conversions, except it requires resources in its gas state rather their LIquid state when used for conversion. Cryogenic resources should be either be stored or used for propulsion/fuel but in order to use in in chemical pocesses it realsiticly should first be converted into a gas where it is reactive.

That's.... pretty interesting! Well these chains aren't open for people to play with yet so I'll investigate. The cryogenic processes are a bit painful for me, I'd like to mention. The processor for that is about the size of a mid-height FL-Txxx 1.25m tank and tuned to produce 1u/s of any liquid form resource. Those chains all require 400~900u/s of the gas forms.

1 minute ago, FreeThinker said:

I agree that MonoProp and Hydrazine can be equated as they have similar density and are not cryogenic but what about Oxidizer. Kerbalism Treats is a Hydrogen Peroxide (HTP) which I agree with as it also has about the same denity and is non cryogenic but you appear to equate Oxidizer with LqdOxygen, which from a realism perspective is unlealistic as   LqdOxygen is cryogenic while any non cryogenic oxidizer needs something additional to Oxygen

It has never occurred to me to think of Oxidizer as HTP. I don't know much how HTP behaves and I'm not alone in equating Oxidizer to pure LOX. I've watched a few IRL rocket launches and I typically hear of the Delta class rockets and their use of Kerolox (Kerosene + Liquid Oxygen), and I typically hear of or read upper stage rockets and their use of Hydrogen and Oxygen. But thanks for the insight there. It's nice to have a solid option to consider other than just LOX for Oxidizer. :)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

How about adding a "precise mode" to the surface scanner which allows you to select a single resource so the PAW becomes a bit more clear? Can be quite taxing to keep looking at the huge list of resources while just one or two are relevant at the same time.
The precise mode would not replace the current version but it could be toggle-able with a button to switch between "general" and "precise" modes :)

Well this is what

DMagic ScanSat can be used for which allows you to filter on specific resources. I have already made several minable resource integration with it.

Edited by FreeThinker

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@4x4cheesecake Actually (and @FreeThinker unwittingly just reminded me) you can use the same kind of toggle in the stock Narrowband Scanner. I've practically denied that part's existence...

Yes, the orbital scanner, I use it as well. Personally I think this scanner is way over powered as it allows instant scanning. But it is always avaialbe and Dmagic Orbital scanner is not.

Edited by FreeThinker

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5 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

That's.... pretty interesting! Well these chains aren't open for people to play with yet so I'll investigate. The cryogenic processes are a bit painful for me, I'd like to mention. The processor for that is about the size of a mid-height FL-Txxx 1.25m tank and tuned to produce 1u/s of any liquid form resource. Those chains all require 400~900u/s of the gas forms.

It has never occurred to me to think of Oxidizer as HTP. I don't know much how HTP behaves and I'm not alone in equating Oxidizer to pure LOX. I've watched a few IRL rocket launches and I typically hear of the Delta class rockets and their use of Kerolox (Kerosene + Liquid Oxygen), and I typically hear of or read upper stage rockets and their use of Hydrogen and Oxygen. But thanks for the insight there. It's nice to have a solid option to consider other than just LOX for Oxidizer. :)

I remembered some of the early year US (or Soviet???) rockets that utilize HTP as their Oxidizer, can't place there name, but they definately exists.

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6 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@4x4cheesecake Actually (and @FreeThinker unwittingly just reminded me) you can use the same kind of toggle in the stock Narrowband Scanner. I've practically denied that part's existence...

Uh, that's the part you have to add to your vessel to look cooler because it rotates, right? :D

I actually didn't know that the narrow band scanner is capable to scan for a specific resource, especially since it is a stock part and there is just one resource in the stock game...

I'll give it a try :)

6 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Well this is what

DMagic ScanSat can be used for which allows you to filter on specific resources. I have already made several minable resource integration with it.

Yep, I know that you can toggle different resources in ScanSat maps but since it is not a dependency, I thought it might be a good idea to add something similar to this mod. Well, dind't know the narrow band scanner might be a solution, so I have to try it^^

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Iso-Polaris said:

I remembered some of the early year US (or Soviet???) rockets that utilize HTP as their Oxidizer, can't place there name, but they definately exists.

True but nowadays by Oxidiser we usualy mean Dinitrogen Teroxide (NTO), which requires Ammonia which often is even harder to find and process then Hydrogen which usualy can be found at the poles. So if you want to make Oxidider production even marginally realistic, you need at least Hydrogen (easy) or Ammonia (hard).

I would advice to keep at least a realistic as Kerbalism but not less.

But if you take Mun ISRU serious, you need to go the Metal/Oxygen rocketry Hybrid rocket route. Although its not as facy, this is true ISRU that truely works almost on any atmosphereless mun.

Edited by FreeThinker

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Posted (edited)

I've decided to rename this mod from "Realistic Resources." There's a certain high expectation, and pressure, that comes with any use of the word "realism" in the name or description of a mod. This is something I want to avoid, personally.

I haven't gotten to explore gaseous input resource chain. I may leave it such that liquid resources are required just to avoid adding the step of converting liquids back to gas to use them. I'm considering replacing the LqdHydrogen presences with Hydrogen and ensuring that any Hydrogen harvesting and refrigeration processes are buffed just enough to not test players' patience too much. But that is a tough call as messing with LqdHydrogen means possibly messing with everyone who uses Nertea's related mods.That's something I'm fairly ready to deal with, and even back off of if I get enough complaints about that.

Where I stand, Oxidizer is primarily treated as the cryo form, LOX. I'm okay-ish with taking the hits for interfering with Hydrogen, but Oxidizer is supposed to be easy to get afaik, and forcing it to be non-cryo (requiring rare resources) is a gameplay element I and most players are likely really not interested in. Those chains can always be provided as options for hardcore players to enjoy, but I sure don't want Ammonia to be a default requirement.

I'd like to add the gameplay element for Metal+O2 rocketry since you brought it up. That makes me think of Solid and Hybrid Solid Rocketry but also the problem where SRBs cannot be shut down, or when they can, they cannot be restarted. I do not see gameplay value in that at all so that's not happening.

Finally, I've decided that it would be very wise to have the templates, converters, and maybe the scanners, become blank when Kerbalism or KSPI are installed.

Edited by JadeOfMaar

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Posted (edited)

Pre-release 0.8.5

Download at GitHub

Please delete Realistic Resources before installing

Spoiler
  • Added parts:
    • ZZZ box Convert-O-Trons (will hold OmniConverters in Classic Stock mode). These are temporary parts and not to be used on permanent or long-term crafts. They are for testing the ISRU chains.
    • HECS-shaped resource scanners for: Surface; Sky (Atmo+Exo); Ocean.
    • Exo scoop. Supports Antimatter, karborundum, LqdHe3, Hydrogen, LqdDeuterium.
  • Added features:
    • Atmosphere harvester and splashed-only intake modules to the stock XM-G50 radial intake.
    • Resource options to the stock Drill-O-Matics.
    • Mini Convert-O-Tron and Drill-O-Matic are no longer borderline unplayable. They are as terrible as they are on purpose and some of us don't like that.
    • LqdCO2 secondary mode for stock NERV. Requires ReStock.
    • Atmo/exo harvester modules will not appear if KSPI is installed.
  • No longer add resource scanners to stock parts (the ones that will still appear in the Surface Scanner are those added by CRP, not this mod).
  • Added Easy Mode RationalResourcesEasy pseudo-mod. This prevents deletion of the stock fuel options in the Convert-O-Trons and causes Ore to not be nerfed as harshly. Ore remains available everywhere but will not pass 8% max (vs the default 15%).
  • Added RationalResourcesOverride pseudo-mod. This provides for planet mods that change Kerbin and Sun and will want alternate resource templates for them.
  • Buffed Minerite/Mineral abundance in Duna. Reduced RareMetal abundance in exchange.
  • Changed all LqdHydrogen presence to Hydrogen and tuned abundances and ranges.
  • Added yellow star atmo template (only provides exo resources).

"Pseudo-mods" in this context are mods whose purpose are only to activate extra patches. to activate a pseudo-mod, create a folder with its name in GameData or create a patch with a :FOR[] targeting the pseudo-mod.

 

Featured parts:

  • 1.25m exo scoop. Does not work in atmosphere.
  • HECS-sized multi-purpose scanners. They carry my custom selections of resource readouts. The stock Surface Scanner will no longer be patched but will still show the MKS-focused selection as it has always done.
  • Ore tanks equipped with B9 Part Switch. They hold Ore, Water, Ammonia, Carbon Dioxide, LqdHe3, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Water but not the other things.

k275RfU.jpg

 

This screenshot is somewhat outdated now, just because harvester features were added after it.

PQvIGNb.jpg

 

The ZZZ blue boxes are the temporary ISRU parts, licensed ShareAlike. I've personally given them extra stack nodes for your convenience. The flat box is the cryo compressor. They will have OmniConverter slots when used in Classic Stock mode.

iWJoVlX.jpg

 

Ice giant atmosphere on-demand! Featuring Lindor of JNSQ. No surface resources are present (due to the template) so forget about dreaming and sending an Ore scanner to Lindor or Jool.

6UNf13S.jpg

 

Sun-diving? Demonstrating the yellow star template.

The resource bands cannot be very wide (estimated max of 2 mil km) due to a nasty bug in stock.

Spoiler

The resource band epicenters are between 966 and 1230 thousand kilometers (SMA, not altitude). The band edges reach as far out as about 2 million km and as far in as .... where you turn into an ion cloud :U Sorry not sorry.

These values are respective to JNSQ Sun and will be lower for stock-scale Sun. They are mostly approachable without much concern for starting to overheat.

SNkT3O1.jpg

Edited by JadeOfMaar

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7 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Nightside Yep. Look at my tall post before this changelog/feature post.

Ah, I didn’t notice the first post- I agree with the reasoning there. Realism has its place, but if reality was really so great we wouldn’t be here talking about a video game, we’d all be working for NASA :wink:.

Thanks for providing some interesting, thoughtful gameplay options!

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Posted (edited)

@JadeOfMaar Could you please also add a template for Atmosphereless planets/moon , that way we can link resources which only apply to planets/moon that are exposed directly to the rigors space, more specificly the solar winds.

On 6/11/2019 at 7:35 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

Finally, I've decided that it would be very wise to have the templates, converters, and maybe the scanners, become blank when Kerbalism or KSPI are installed.

Make your templates Blank, why? I think you Idea of templates is briljant! Please don't make any exception for KSPI and keep the templates as you did. I want to make KSPI fully compatible with Rational Resources, adding KLSPIE specific resource definitions to your templates. In fact I have plans to make as stand alone KSPIE ISRU Mod and make it fully compatible with Rational Resources. That way everybody wins

Edited by FreeThinker

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On 6/11/2019 at 7:35 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

I'd like to add the gameplay element for Metal+O2 rocketry since you brought it up. That makes me think of Solid and Hybrid Solid Rocketry but also the problem where SRBs cannot be shut down, or when they can, they cannot be restarted. I do not see gameplay value in that at all so that's not happening.

From my Understanding Metal+O2 propulsion is not limited  SRB but rather like regular Liquid Fuel engine. Basicly you got a mix of LqdOxygen and Metal stored in a single cryogenic stored tank. THe cold temperature would prevent the reaction from happening (or at least not very fast)

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1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

@JadeOfMaar Could you please also add a template for Atmosphereless planets/moon , that way we can link resources which only apply to planets/moon that are exposed directly to the rigors space, more specificly the solar winds.

Make your templates Blank, why? I think you Idea of templates is briljant! Please don't make any exception for KSPI and keep the templates as you did. I want to make KSPI fully compatible with Rational Resources, adding KLSPIE specific resource definitions to your templates. In fact I have plans to make as stand alone KSPIE ISRU Mod and make it fully compatible with Rational Resources. That way everybody wins

I have not made the templates blank (yet) when KSPI is installed. The idea behind that is that when someone comes along with surface templates, I'm expecting that the existing applied resources would be portioned very differently to accommodate extra resources that aren't very rare, like certain common or semi-rare things like Lithium, Alumina, and crystal line materials. Since you asked, I won't do so.

Sure, I'll make an airless moon template. Exosphere templates and likely a re-tune of the existing converter options are the bulk of the next release.

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