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[1.12.1] JNSQ [0.10.0] [23 Sept 2021]


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40 minutes ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

Hiya. I've backspaced a lot trying to figure out what question to ask, but basically I need help with chutes and Duna, and the image below really says it all. Do the Min Pressure numbers relate to the PressMat number somehow? I'm definitely missing some puzzle pieces and would appreciate any input.

The minimum pressure for the parachutes is in units of atmospheres, while the pressure displayed by the PressMat Barometer is in units of kilopascals.  1 atmosphere equals 101.325 kPa, so to convert kPa to atmospheres, divide kPa by 101.325.  So in the particular screenshot provided, the pressure displayed in the PressMat is, 3.3237 / 101.325 = 0.0328 atm.

The minimum pressure to deploy drogue parachutes is 0.02 atm, so since 0.0328 atm is greater than this, the drogues have deployed.  But the minimum pressure to deploy main parachutes of 0.04 atm has not been reached, therefore the main chutes have not deployed.  In JNSQ the maximum surface pressure on Duna is 0.04 atm, therefore main parachutes should never deploy.  (In practice they might deploy a second or so before impact, but too late to really do anything.)  This is by design.  We don't want main parachutes to work on Duna to make landing on Duna more Mars-like.  That is, one can use drogues to slow and stabilized the vehicle, but propulsion will likely be needed to slow the vehicle enough for a soft touchdown.
 

Edited by OhioBob
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1 hour ago, OhioBob said:

The minimum pressure for the parachutes is in units of atmospheres, while the pressure displayed by the PressMat Barometer is in units of kilopascals.

This is really helpful info, thank you.

In the screenshot, the drogues never inflated, even though they were out for a hot minute, and set at 5k. You can see they're still blue.  There must be another factor I haven't considered?

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On 11/28/2021 at 7:16 PM, OrbitalManeuvers said:

In the screenshot, the drogues never inflated, even though they were out for a hot minute, and set at 5k. You can see they're still blue.  There must be another factor I haven't considered?

I've never seen that before.  If the pressure is high enough for the parachutes to deploy, they should inflate when they reach the height setting.  I know of nothing in JNSQ that would stop that from happening.

JNSQ does use a plugin called Sigma TweakChutes that changes parachute behavior, but it shouldn't affect parachutes in the way you describe.  In stock KSP, parachutes will immediately deploy and inflate when reaching the height above terrain that you have set in the parachute slider even if the minimum deployment pressure has not yet been reached.  TweakChutes stops this from happening.  With TweakChutes a parachute will never deploy until the minimum pressure has been reach, and it will not inflate until both the minimum pressure and the altitude has been reached.  This is why main parachutes won't deploy on Duna because the minimum pressure is never reached.  Drogue parachutes, however, should deploy once descending below an altitude of 7068 meters where the air pressure is equal to 0.02 atm (assuming you have them set to deploy at that pressure).  Once deployed, there should be nothing stopping them from inflating when you've reached the set altitude above terrain.

I suppose it's possible that the latest version of KSP has produced a bug in TweakChutes that could be causing this.  I doubt it, however, because in the past TweakChutes has been pretty immune to KSP updates.  I should check it to be certain.
 

Edited by OhioBob
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1 hour ago, OhioBob said:

I should check it to be certain.

I appreciate the help. The onus is really on me still, let me get you some better data. That screenshot is from a video, so I'll review that and make sure there's nothing suspect there, and I'll do some more drogue-specific testing and get some more results. I am 100% sure I've used drogues on Duna to do propulsive rover landings, but pretty much everything in this install has been updated since then, including both KSP and JNSQ, so I will do some more testing on my end and let you know the results. When no one else has said anything, I start by assuming it's me ... :)

Update

Well, confusing results that I can't explain. Here's what I've done. I built a lander from scratch using only stock parts (I think). The 4 drogues are set to .02/5k, and deploy at 4500m and then inflate immediately. But the craft in the video still won't inflate drogues. I replaced them, and checked that the settings are identical to the other craft. Still no luck. I have video of both of these landings/crashes and would be happy to edit it down and upload it if you think it would be interesting. Of course I can also give you logs and all that meh jazz.

Or, maybe this info makes this issue less interesting, and we forget it? :) Idk what to say about this craft, but something is causing the chutes to fail to inflate, but I also think this can't be JNSQ related?

Edited by OrbitalManeuvers
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@OrbitalManeuvers, your problem doesn't really sound like it's JNSQ or TweakChutes related, but I won't rule it out just yet.  It might be interesting to remove TweakChutes to see what happens.  To do so, just temporarily remove the folder JNSQ_Plugins.  I haven't had a chance to do any testing on my end yet.

1 hour ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

The 4 drogues are set to .02/5k, and deploy at 4500m and then inflate immediately.

That does make sense if you had the altimeter set to height above terrain.  Drogues should semi-deploy at an altitude of about 7000m above sea level.  But if you were flying over terrain with an elevation of about 2500m, then they would semi-deploy at 4500m above the ground.  And since you are already inside the 5000m height for full deployment, they would immediately inflate.

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51 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

It might be interesting to remove TweakChutes to see what happens.

Well, how would you feel if I said that removing TC changed everything, and now even the mains deploy? Granted, they're still set to risky, but they're also set to .04.  

Let me know if you'd like me to try anything else, I'm happy to tinker with this. I don't think mains should be opening in this case so I'll put TC back unless you'd like some more experimenting.

Spoiler

14q1aO5.png

 

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1 hour ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

... and now even the mains deploy?

That's normal in the stock game.  Parachutes will full-deploy when reaching the height setting regardless of whether the minimum pressure condition has been satisfied or not.  This is one of the things that TweakChutes was specifically designed to correct.

I'm going to run some tests now to see what happens on my end.
 

Edited by OhioBob
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@OrbitalManeuvers, I just ran a test and everything worked as expected for me.  No problems.

What version of JNSQ/TweakChutes are you using?  JNSQ v0.10.1 came bundled with TweakChutes v0.3.0.  JNSQ v0.10.2 upgrades to TweakChutes v0.3.1.  If you're using the older version, perhaps that's the problem.  If so, try replacing the TweakChutes in the JNSQ_Plugins folder with this one:

Release Sigma TweakChutes v0.3.1 · Sigma88/Sigma-TweakChutes (github.com)

 

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4 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

What version of JNSQ/TweakChutes are you using?

I'm using the latest JNSQ and haven't replaced anything.

I also got good/expected results with the new lander I built, and that's the truly puzzling part - how the same stock drogues with the same settings behave differently on different craft, yet the same planet. To me that screams "testing error" (I'm a programmer in a very different field but logic is logic) but I've reviewed the videos I took and don't see anything wonky.

Anyway, we've both separately ruled out JNSQ. Thank you again for the interaction and the info! 

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On 11/28/2021 at 12:09 AM, Terminator Shock said:

I'm using the 2nd latest version of scatterer and the sunflare isn't working, can anyone help me here?

Make sure it's v0.0772, and not just whatever the previous one was -- there were a couple rolling updates with this latest release.

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1 hour ago, RocketRyleigh said:

Is RemoteTech usable with JNSQ?

Supposedly, yes.  There's a config for it.

Quote

Assuming yes, if I wanted to get the intended balance etc, would the way to set it up be to disable CommNet and apply the 4x range increase instead to RemoteTech's Mission Control Range Multiplier?

I'm not familiar with RemoteTech, so I don't know.  Hopefully somebody with some RemoteTech experience can answer.

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From the JNSQ changelog, it looks like the antenna range modifier was added for RemoteTech. So I'd think that, if for CommNet you're just increasing the DSN range modifier, that increasing RT's Mission Control range would be equivalent since both sets of antenna ranges are already adjusted by JNSQ.

I think the important question then, from anyone who knows RemoteTech, is how RT's default Mission Control range compares to the default CommNet DSN range, so I know what multiplier to use. Also just tell me if I'm wrong about everything so far - I know they also model signals/connectivity differently.

Edited by RocketRyleigh
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So I'd definitely still like to know about how to set up RemoteTech with JNSQ to give the intended balance, but it's not compatible with Kerbalism for now. So new question:

How in the heck do I wrangle this DSN range modifier slider, or otherwise set the value, to actually get an exact number I want (like 4.00, for JNSQ)? I managed 4.02 with 120% UI scale lol, but it wasn't easy. IS there even a better way? Or should I be happy with .02 off the mark?

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5 hours ago, RocketRyleigh said:

So I'd definitely still like to know about how to set up RemoteTech with JNSQ to give the intended balance, but it's not compatible with Kerbalism for now. So new question:

How in the heck do I wrangle this DSN range modifier slider, or otherwise set the value, to actually get an exact number I want (like 4.00, for JNSQ)? I managed 4.02 with 120% UI scale lol, but it wasn't easy. IS there even a better way? Or should I be happy with .02 off the mark?

I always open the save file, search for 4.02 (or the closest number I can get) and make sure it's the DSN portion and set range and dsn to 1.0 and 4.0. 

 

I'm not sure about the disable comnet I always leave it enabled but honestly haven't made it far enough to know if it's working right. Just put my first satellite in orbit. 

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1 hour ago, Fihnakis said:

I always open the save file, search for 4.02 (or the closest number I can get) and make sure it's the DSN portion and set range and dsn to 1.0 and 4.0. 

Thank you! I had looked in my save folder once, but I don't always think to check weird file extension types with Notepad++, I think from dealing with Minecraft and obfuscated data and stuff. FYI the setting is called "DSNModifier", so for future reference, you could even just skip messing with the slider, and just start up that save and ctrl+f for "DSN" in the persistence.sfs.
 

1 hour ago, Fihnakis said:

I'm not sure about the disable comnet I always leave it enabled but honestly haven't made it far enough to know if it's working right. Just put my first satellite in orbit. 

I actually slightly misspoke. I was trying to find out how to set up RemoteTech to use with JNSQ such that it's as close to the same balance as the suggested CommNet+JNSQ settings (mainly the x4 DSN range modifier - how to replicate that with RT). But also I'm not using RemoteTech anymore until Kerbalism 4.0 adds compatibility, so I can kick the question down the road lol. Thanks anyways!

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If anyone is interested, I've created some custom configs for JNSQ that work with the latest version of scatterer.  I've tried to keep things similar to the default, but some things might be a little different. I've noticed that the main difference is that you no longer scale atmospheres by the experimental atmosphere scale, instead, atmosphere color and thickness is controlled by the betaR values, instead of pre-generated half files.

Here's the download link for anyone interested.

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3 hours ago, Flavio hc16 said:

Sorry, I was talking about Moho,and I still can't find them

The Voronoi Craters biome doesn't exist on Moho.  The biome name appears in the config, but it doesn't actually exist in the biome map.

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