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Buff the Juno, and other balance changes


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Current real life air breathing engines can generally be said to follow a certain progression of maximum speed vs efficiency:

Prop (turboprop or piston) (missing in KSP, unless you count BG rotors)

High bypass turbofan (goliath, wheesley)

Low bypass turbofan (panther)

Turbojet (Juno)

Afterburning turbine (panther-wet, Whiplash)

Ramjet (whiplash)... I could have added turboramjets as a category, but meh

Now, KSP mostly respects this, except the Juno has a thrust curve as if it was a high bypass turbojet. IMO, it should perform even better at >mach 1 than the panther in dry mode. A no bypass turbofan = a turbojet. The Juno already suffers from the poor fuel efficiency, it should at least get some better high speed performance. It could help the niche of tiny 0.625m SSTo spaceplanes. I'm also finding myself using it more with BG, such as 4 of them on swivels as a faux harrier. Before I mostly overlooked its poor stats like I overlooked the flea's: its something for early career, but not much more.... but I don't think parts should be made like that.

While we're at it:

*** The skiff nerf was too hard... a 60% increase in mass? that's rough. I propose giving it a 15% increase in thrust to offset such a huge nerf (if it needed such a nerf, why was it released with those stats in the first place?). It seems like its intended as a launch vehicle 2nd stage, but its thrust/cross section ratio is pretty bad. I do sort of envision its role as competeing with the skipper, unfortunately (much like mainsail vs mastadon)

*** Wolfhound still needs nerfing. The appeal of aerospikes was that you got close to optimum vacuum dV for a LFO, but now the optimum LFO vacuum Isp is 380? the aerospike's Isp is now closer to the vacuum Isp of 1st stage engines like the mainsail, than the vacuum Isp of the wolfhound. This engine seems to fill a role similar to the poodle. I suggest nerfing its Isp down to 350, at most 355, lower gimbal to just 1 degree, remove the alternator, reduce impact tolerance to 5 m/s, and make it lower weight than the poodle with the same thrust - Make it a lightweight, barebones version of the poodle. I'd even contemplate making it a mono-prop engine, as those are pretty lacking

*** nerf the cheetah Isp to 350, stop the power creep

*** +20% the skipper thrust, it will have a similar vacuum TWR to the Rhino, but a worse vac Isp, it would have a better TWR than the skiff, but a worse vacuum Isp

*** +50% to Aerospike thrust and mass? Its best used firing from the surface to space, but its thrust:cross section ratio is too low, it can't lift much of a stack

*** finally implement part upgrades (the code is there) for the reliant, swivel, flea, and hammer (maybe the BACC SRB, but less of a buff): These engines such compared to later unlocks, and are mostly only useful early in career. Buffing them straight away would make early career too easy, but without a later tech buffing them, they will cease to be used.

*** Aerospike closed cycle Isp buff, it has the thrust curve of an engine optimized for low altitude/sea level atmosphere. Its airbreathing mode is optimized for operation above 10 km, and so should its closed cycle mode. I suggest giving it the Skiff's Isp curve.

*** +50% to maximum torque of the robotic rotors... the old reactor wheel props should not be beating these so badly.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on this, other suggested balance changes (with reasons?)

 

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AFAIK, the Juno jet engine as a basic jet is based on the Junkers Jumo 004, which was one of the first operational (fitted on active combat aircraft) jet engines. They both share a horrible fuel consumption and limited power output, and I personally like the historical nod. I would agree to some extent that a power buff wouldn't harm them, but I wouldn't go any further than a 25% or so power increase.

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Well, it may be based on that... but when you have the other engines unlocked, it seems pretty bad to be operating something like the SR--71's J-58, alongside something as primitive as the Jumo 004.

In light of your comment, I'd modify my suggestion: "*** finally implement part upgrades (the code is there) for the reliant, swivel, flea,  Juno, and hammer (maybe the BACC SRB, but less of a buff): These engines suck compared to later unlocks, and are mostly only useful early in career. Buffing them straight away would make early career too easy, but without a later tech buffing them, they will cease to be used."

So when you unlock the panther, or maybe whiplash, its stats get upgraded, as if you've replaced your Jumo 004s with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_J85  /  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CJ610

So that your planes are now like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Flyable_reproductions

 

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1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

Well, it may be based on that... but when you have the other engines unlocked, it seems pretty bad to be operating something like the SR--71's J-58, alongside something as primitive as the Jumo 004.

Your relativation seems to accurately put the current Juno at the right spot, albeit that you seem to radiate you aren't much fan of it. Comparing to a SR--71's J-58 a Junkers Jumo 004 is ancient, thus that is the expectation in performance difference logically. The Juno is a low tech turbofan. What Squad did with the numbers is probably a little illogical. Haven't thought through if it's one of their strategic balancing acts that has a Squad illogical explanation that makes it a high bypass turbojet instead of a turbofan in actual sense.

Maybe that's what's to argue about. I love creative Juno SSTO's, difficulty wise they're already viable and shouldn't be made more easy. I know as I created some.

Why not recommend another 0.625m jet engine while we're at it, like for instance a proper "Turbojet" with more thrust obviously since that's a logical consequence.....
Since the Juno is the only 0.625m jet engine the recommendation would be another.

On 6/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, KerikBalm said:

*** +50% to Aerospike thrust and mass? Its best used firing from the surface to space, but its thrust:cross section ratio is too low, it can't lift much of a stack

*** finally implement part upgrades (the code is there) for the reliant, swivel, flea, and hammer (maybe the BACC SRB, but less of a buff): These engines such compared to later unlocks, and are mostly only useful early in career. Buffing them straight away would make early career too easy, but without a later tech buffing them, they will cease to be used.

I agree on the aerospike regardless, why not, it's not out of any realm. Certainly it seems more balancing. Besides tiny Eve stages (otherwise thrust is to low and vectors, mammoths and Twin boar's are of choice) aerospikes are usually spent on eve rocket space planes or Kerbin SSTo Hybrid space planes so this tweak will allow aerospike configurations to allow more versatility in Eve and Kerbin rocket/spaceplanes and to my liking the current model leaves little trickery to make full use of the aerospike. In any case, something should be done to them as there's little necessity ever using them besides those instances mentioned besides any uses I'm aware off.

I'm for part upgrades. As you say these early rocket engines become obsolete, however they do function as proper 1.25m engines. Squad is to assume people would only use 1,875m, 2,5m and 3.75m engines on later techs or sandbox so they keep the 1.25m engines low tech (apart form the Vector which is OP, HUH?). This certainly is a mistake. Without further adding parts a part upgrade function to upgrade early to mid tech parts to higher performance values seems gamey and understanding. Most of the early to mid tech engines fulfill a key role on 1.25m stacks and they are left to 3 choices mostly, the Terrier, Swivel and the Reliant. Only the Terrier seems to have proper performance ISP wise to be considered mid/high tech but only in vacuum so a part upgrade to boost it's Sea level ISP somewhat should be a gamey part upgrade if I say so. It would never ruin the entirety of the game as any later tech parts would still be better suited. A Terrier would then be better suited as a mid/high atmospheric 2nd stage engine with a little more weight perhaps of 0.65Ton.

Edited by Aeroboi
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