Harmonic Fictional Civilizations

[Spacescifi]

 

Most all fictional civilizations, human and otherwise are based on reality.

Real civilizations throughout history often have the support of their citizens in the beginning. But later such support fragments as citizens balkanize into their own factions. Then they split, new civilizations form, and the cycle repeats it self. Over and over. Barring that,  a civilization is merely absorbed by another (read conquered).

So... what do you think an actually harmonic fictional civilization would be like?

Such words as these come to mind, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

A simple solution would be to implement the exact opposite of this. Where the primary goals of the average citizen and the government are one and the same. Thus having full support.

Yet, to fully implement it, rebels would have to be dealt with swiftly. Thus the reason why many view utopias as dystopias under a paradisiac veneer.

 

Of course, my ideas on how a harmonic fictional civilization could be are not the only ones. What are yours?

Edited June 10, 2019 by Spacescifi

[WinkAllKerb'']

while waiting for my daily 25 like to come back.

A nice start for a great book movies series and all ^^

[Spacescifi]

9 minutes ago, WinkAllKerb'' said:

while waiting for my daily 25 like to come back.

A nice start for a great book movies series and all l

 

Daily 25? What is that?

A great start? Perhaps. It all comes down to the execution.

The concept is really not a new one. It is really just one possible end result of a civilization.

As opposed to the static evolution/revolution cycle that humanity knows as their reality.

Fictional civilizations need not be that way.

[WinkAllKerb'']

most writers, after some time, fear the white page, so it's an exercice to write a few each days, from a "stephen king" interview when he was writing the "green line" he said that before writing this novel that was the second time he reminded lacking that much inspiration in his carreer (first was that book i don't remind the title where a woman trap a writers in a house, one of it's most known classic , but i just don't remind the title right now) and that's why he tried that exercice of writing and publishing a book on a regular monthly basis schedule interactively with the public return month after months : )

Edited June 10, 2019 by WinkAllKerb''

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

what do you think an actually harmonic fictional civilization would be like?

Extinct.

[StrandedonEarth]

Like the “Octospiders” from “Rama Revealed “ and “ Garden of Rama”

[Spacescifi]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Extinct.

 

Why do you think?

2 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Like the “Octospiders” from “Rama Revealed “ and “ Garden of Rama”

Not familiar with either. Could you tell me about them? Did they thrive and prosper? Or not?

Edited June 10, 2019 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Why do you think?

Because any action is an opposition of "before" and "after", so the source of any action is a conflict between the existing and the desired.
So, any activity requires a discomfort causing the conflict.
So, any development, any investigation, any evolution require a (preferrably) controllable inner discomfort.Like they say "the only stable form of motion is rotation", any stable system requires an inner set of conflicts causing an inner looped competition between its parts, and its evolution and development.

Upd.
At least an annual rock-paper-scissors championship.
The main idea is, it should have no stable state, and no team may stay an eternal champion .
Let them compete for some limited resource in any game like rock-paper-scissors.
Next month/year the losers will take a revenge, but currently they should lack that resource. (Say, just should wear only white clothes while the current champions are wearing colored ones).

Edited June 10, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Because any action is an opposition of "before" and "after", so the source of any action is a conflict between the existing and the desired.
So, any activity requires a discomfort causing the conflict.
So, any development, any investigation, any evolution require a (preferrably) controllable inner discomfort.Like they say "the only stable form of motion is rotation", any stable system requires an inner set of conflicts causing an inner looped competition between its parts, and its evolution and development.

Upd.
At least an annual rock-paper-scissors championship.
The main idea is, it should have no stable state, and no team may stay an eternal champion .
Let them compete for some limited resource in any game like rock-paper-scissors.
Next month/year the losers will take a revenge, but currently they should lack that resource. (Say, just should wear only white clothes while the current champions are wearing colored ones).

A fictional harmonic civilzation does not eliminate the challenges inherent to the fictional universe they live within.

That is your source of conflict right there.

Challenge is always present. Whether conflict is present or not. Man vs his environment is like a never ending battle. Since nature does not give man what he wants for zero effort. Or for fictional aliens for that matter, unless their homeworld coddled them, in which case the universe will be a very scary place for them.

I do not believe that harmony prevents progress in general. But it does prevent certain types of social change. 

 

This music is a product of harmony. Just think of what an ENTIRE civilization could do! In harmony.

Does harmony prevent technological progress. Not so much.

As tech is more a means to an end.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Spacescifi
Challenge alien edit

[kerbiloid]

20 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

This music is a product of harmony.

It's a product of resonant frequencies of human electric circuit.

Also without a competition between the composers it would never achieve its nowadays complexity.

25 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

A fictional harmonic civilzation does not eliminate the challenges inherent to the fictional universe they live within.

A harmonic civilization is by definition a system based on a positive loopback. It will become a sticky ball of colored chewing gum, degrade and fall.
A stable system (including the civs) should be built on negative loopbacks.

[MaxxQ]

9 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Daily 25? What is that?

People can only give out 25 "likes" per day on this forum.

In this case he's used up all his 25 likes for the day and needs to wait for the count to reset, otherwise, and I'm just guessing here, he would have given your initial post a like.

Edit for on-topic:  Personally, I can't think of a harmonized civilization that would work, either in reality or fiction.  If it DID exist, it would be pretty stagnant, and it certainly wouldn't be humans populating it, since we're all too cranky to get along all the time.

Edited June 10, 2019 by MaxxQ

[Spacescifi]

9 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

It's a product of resonant frequencies of human electric circuit.

Also without a competition between the composers it would never achieve its nowadays complexity.

A harmonic civilization is by definition a system based on a positive loopback. It will become a sticky ball of colored chewing gum, degrade and fall.
A stable system (including the civs) should be built on negative loopbacks.

 

Oh, I you think that harmony means an absence of competition?

It really does'nt. I have seen people who get along have competitions and still be in harmony afterward.

I think you are assuming more to the harmony than I was.

As for negative feedback, harmony does not prevent that either.

The diligent and intelligent would generally get to enjoy things that those who are less industrious and intelligent would not. There is your negative feedback.

Because they work for it. And others do not or not as hard, so they do not get the good things others have.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Spacescifi
Fix

[Spacescifi]

13 minutes ago, MaxxQ said:

People can only give out 25 "likes" per day on this forum.

In this case he's used up all his 25 likes for the day and needs to wait for the count to reset, otherwise, and I'm just guessing here, he would have given your initial post a like.

Edit for on-topic:  Personally, I can't think of a harmonized civilization that would work, either in reality or fiction.  If it DID exist, it would be pretty stagnant, and it certainly wouldn't be humans populating it, since we're all too cranky to get along all the time.

How well do you think a human could get along with a harmonic civilization?

Example: Humans and aliens do a cultural exchange.

A navy guy is chosen to serve aboard an harmonic civilizations star cruiser, while a harmonic alien is chosen to serve aboard a human aircraft for a month.

After a month, what is the result for the human?

I can tell you that the alien would feel disturbed if he heard any sailors badmouth their own human government or superiors behind their backs.

He would suggest to the complaining human sailor that he speak to his commanding officer directly. To make peace between them.

How does it go for the human sailor on the alien star cruiser?

Edited June 10, 2019 by Spacescifi
Sailor

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

harmonic civilizations star cruiser

"The Good will defeat the Evil, imprison it, and brutally kill."

[StrandedonEarth]

5 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Not familiar with either. Could you tell me about them? Did they thrive and prosper? Or not?

Well, given they were a multi-planet species, I'd say they prospered. They had also learned a valuable lesson during a near-extinction event.

Their leaders were called "Optimizers" since their job was to keep everything optimized. They used other creatures as technology as a sort of symbiosis. Since war was decidedly non-optimal, it was only used as a very last resort, with none of these silly rules of war that humans insist on. War is war, after all.

The original Rendezvous With Rama by Arthur C Clarke was written in 1973 as a stand-alone, but ended with a big hook suggesting more to come. Starting in 1989 a follow-on trilogy was written by Arthur C Clarke and Gentry Lee. Rama II set the stage for Garden of Rama (which takes an in-depth look at the differences between Human and Octospider cultures) and Rama Revealed, which wraps it all up.

I suggest giving them a read. The original was a classic hit, while the follow-on trilogy fell into the love-it-or-hate-it category. The main difference being that Clarke didn't spend as many words on in-depth character and social commentary as Gentry Lee did. But I liked them, aside from some of the character-backstory-development in Rama II. If you really want to just cut to the octospiders you can skip straight to Garden of Rama; you should be able to pick up the tale there.

[YNM]

On 6/10/2019 at 4:50 PM, Spacescifi said:

actually harmonic

A little bit of problem here, a little bit of fix there, compromise, more compromise...

 

Look no further.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

A little bit of problem here, a little bit of fix there, compromise, more compromise...

 

Look no further.

 

I think that people are thinking this is a case of the author thinking "If only humans were this way everyting would be utopia!"

I do not think that at all. Humanity as is will never have utopia, nor can they.

This concept is merely fun for fictional aliens interacting with humans and the inevitable culture clash that results. With humorous results as well.

 

17 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

"The Good will defeat the Evil, imprison it, and brutally kill."

What? You think they would kill the human exchange sailor? Unlikely.

As for musical harmony, if you watched the video you no doubt saw that all the players either stopped in unison, or waited their turns to play.

That is harmony. Indeed. All the great acomplishments of mankind have required harmony among men.

 

Especially... space travel.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

2 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

What? You think they would kill the human exchange sailor?

Isn't the cruiser a battleship? Why does a harmonic civilization keep battleships?

Edited June 11, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Isn't the cruiser a battleship? Why does a harmonic civilization keep battleships?

As I said earlier, just because a race is harmonic, it does not change the fact that the universe has challenges and conflict that exists... beyond their immediate world.

 

Aliens my friend. Aliens. That is why.

EDIT: For that matter even their world has challenges and conflict. But rebels on their world are swiftly dealt with, so civil unrest and crime is not a major problem for them. Prevention is even more instituted, to prevent it in the first place.

 

Indoctrination from an early age is important in their society. It also helps that the aliens have some peculiar quirks we do no have.

 

Words do not hurt their feelings. At all. Also, they do not resent being told what to do by their equals or even their inferiors. 

Unlike us.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Spacescifi

[YNM]

7 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

I think that people are thinking this is a case of the author thinking "If only humans were this way everyting would be utopia!"

I do not think that at all. Humanity as is will never have utopia, nor can they.

Sorry, but harmony isn't about getting everyone's desires fulfilled, it's about making compromises.

And so far, we're doing exactly that.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

Sorry, but harmony isn't about getting everyone's desires fulfilled, it's about making compromises.

And so far, we're doing exactly that.

 

Then perhaps we are viewing the word harmony through different lenses?

Harmony for them simply means working in unison for a common goal. Like the musicians again.

Not everyone getting exactly what they want all day everyday (indeed they would likely be unhappy if they did).

 

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Spacescifi

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Harmony for them simply means working in unison for a common goal.

What's the common goal then, if I may ask ?

 

Leaving everyone to their own stuff is persistent. Goals comes and goes.

[Spacescifi]

14 hours ago, YNM said:

What's the common goal then, if I may ask ?

 

Leaving everyone to their own stuff is persistent. Goals comes and goes.

 

What if the goal was one that was virtually infinite or impossible in scope?

For that matter, the harmonic civilization could ask a human "What is the common goal that all of your human civilization is working toward?"

You may say, "To evolve and become better men than we were. If not that, we wish to become no worse than what we feared."

 

Really what goal they are working toward currently as a race matters little to me, as that is easy for me to create. And their collective goal as a race WILL change over time. 

I mean I could be silly and say their goal is to teach every sapient alien being alive how to cook like a gourmet chef. And I could still make it work!

What matters most to me is their story role.

Are they better than humans? Worse? Or kind of like us?

I prefer a mix of better than us yet kind of like us.

Not gods or galactic angels who do no wrong, just different and advanced.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Spacescifi

[WinkAllKerb'']

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