Harmonic Fictional Civilizations

[Spacescifi]

3 minutes ago, WinkAllKerb'' said:

this might be of some interest:

 

It seems like a scifi color chart that indicates the subjects or themes that are covered in certain scifi works.

[WinkAllKerb'']

yup so now it's about to fill it with "harmonic fictionnal civilizations" where could it be included, does it need another additonnal colors & etc.

[Spacescifi]

4 minutes ago, WinkAllKerb'' said:

yup so now it's about to fill it with "harmonic fictionnal civilizations" where could it be included, does it need another additonnal colors & etc.

 

It would be infinite then. As the ideas of mankind are as deep as the bottom of the sea.

However, this idea was merely a demonstration of how easy it is to create a fictional race that does not act like your average person.

As I have said before, why make fictional aliens if they only behave like an average person?

[YNM]

19 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

What is the common goal that all of your human civilization is working toward?

Making more compromise ? Or at least take out those that don't agree. Which isn't "ideal", but eh.

 

But anyway, if your question is "what would an alien be", you don't have to look far - the real world is more bizzare than you think. You could take inspiration from existing beings.

[WinkAllKerb'']

furthermore let's take a concrete exemple: matrix 

it could the ia, making revive to the human it enjail & enslave it's birth period, cute and poetic somehow ; ) just a layers amongst the others ; )

as ynm said it's always about the many layers you see and don't see ... each individual gonna see different thing in a book/movie

the sum of all those point of view is what's interesting and that's also what's gonna make a book famous or not

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by WinkAllKerb''
froggy approx translate & typo

[kerbiloid]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:08 PM, Spacescifi said:

As I have said before, why make fictional aliens if they only behave like an average person?

And here we are getting to another question: why use elves, dwarves, gnomes, and other hobbits in fantasy settings?
(It's ok with orcs and goblins: they are real, everybody had seen them somewhere.)

Prior to XX century they were a part of that lace/dolls/artsy-phartsy cultural background.

But why keep sticking those idiotic tips to their ears now, in the post-Tolkien epoch.
And why at all invent non-human humans where they can be just human tribes without any loss.

Also, it's cheaper to portray them in movies, when all those fantasy races are just callnames for local humans.

[DDE]

On 6/12/2019 at 8:45 PM, WinkAllKerb'' said:

this might be of some interest:

Quote

Starship Troopers

new fascism

That’s how you know the chart-maker is full of crap.

Anyway, we have to do something that @Spacescifi crucially neglected to do:

Quote

Definition of harmony

1a: the combination of simultaneous musical notes in a chord

She taught him how to sing harmony.

b: the structure of music with respect to the composition and progression of chords a song with complicated harmonies and rhythms

c: the science of the structure, relation, and progression of chords

2a: pleasing arrangement of parts : CONGRUENCE

a painting exhibiting harmony of color and line

b: AGREEMENT, ACCORD

when a woman's desires are in harmony with those of her husband

c: internal calm : TRANQUILITY

a period of relative harmony

3a: an interweaving of different accounts into a single narrative

b: a systematic arrangement of parallel literary passages (as of the Gospels) for the purpose of showing agreement or harmony

4 (archaic) : tuneful sound : MELODY

Because right now, from what I’ve skimmed, this satisfies your working definition of harmony:

I am sure totalitarian dictatorships enforcing conformity are not what you had in mind.

[WinkAllKerb'']

responsive demographia inter species anyone ? *shrug*

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, DDE said:

 

When all harmonic persons have defeated all not harmonic ones.

[Spacescifi]

13 hours ago, DDE said:

That’s how you know the chart-maker is full of crap.

Anyway, we have to do something that @Spacescifi crucially neglected to do:

Because right now, from what I’ve skimmed, this satisfies your working definition of harmony:

I am sure totalitarian dictatorships enforcing conformity are not what you had in mind.

 

Actually I had looked up the definition.

Of course, perhaps I used the wrong word, since my idea of harmony was a group working together for one goal, which is what humans already do.

 

A lot. The main difference is that these harmononic aliens would specialize in this to a degree that your average human nowadays won't.

 

And yea, I admit such aliens could make compelling villains if written right, but they also do not have to be placed in a villain role.

They could be allies, even heroes in a story, even if readers do not agreer nor adhere to how they act.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Spacescifi

[StrandedonEarth]

7 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Of course, perhaps I used the wrong word, since my idea of harmony was a group working together for one goal, which is what humans already do.

There are different groups of humans working together towards different goals, but not all humans working towards one goal. In fact, some groups work towards opposite goals, and I’m not talking about sports. 

So I would not call human civilization a harmonic one 

[Spacescifi]

21 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

There are different groups of humans working together towards different goals, but not all humans working towards one goal. In fact, some groups work towards opposite goals, and I’m not talking about sports. 

So I would not call human civilization a harmonic one 

 

I agree with you. I was just saying that the concept of working together harmoniously is not an alien concept to humans. They understand it quite well, but in practice it can be difficult though not impossible to achieve because as you said, everyone, myself included, has different goals.

That said, the alien individuals as I envision them would have different individual goals.

But by far the majority of them would give priority to the current goal of their race. Despite their individually different goals. 

Who would decide that? So many options I could choose. Political? Commercial? Religious?

Those are the human movers and shakers of human events. I mean you could add science but that is tied to all three.

Or make something up.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

harmony was a group working together for one goal, which is what humans already do.

 

A lot. The main difference is that these harmononic aliens would specialize in this to a degree that your average human nowadays won't.

As the whole human history shows, any predefined global goal at last appears to be either wrong, or unachievable, but never gets along without decimation.

[Spacescifi]

41 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

As the whole human history shows, any predefined global goal at last appears to be either wrong, or unachievable, but never gets along without decimation.

 

Indeed. So much bloodshed.

That said, it would be still fascinating for humans to encounter a race who did not achieve global harmony as so much as work to.maintain it.

Yet, given the differences between aliens and these harmonic aliens, I do not see them wanting billions of humans living living alonside them. Since that would make maintaining harmony among each other harder (yes alien individuals CAN be influenced).

They may allow tourism, and I would suspect that any alien individuals that wanted to know humanity better would have to just immigrate to earth.

There would be no allowance of return to the homeworld, as that would risk contamination of the alien harmony with human disharmony. Or even goals opposed to the main goal of the alien race.

There is a song that describes humanity quite well I think. For all our faults and positive qualities (our greed and creed is all we have to share), we still have love and are capable of showing it to anyone and everything.

 

Humans can be heroes in any fictional setting. Just let them show love in some way that the audience can root for. 

 

Even fictional aliens could like humanss for this, as individual humans have shown a remarkable ability to dedicate their short lives to all sorts of activities.

Make it an alien agenda and suddenly wow! They are allies with aliens!

Edited June 16, 2019 by Spacescifi
Humans and aliens

[DDE]

2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

I was just saying that the concept of working together harmoniously is not an alien concept to humans.

Yes and no. Humans generally cooperate due to the convergence of their own selfish goals, which creates an illusion of harmony - and illusion of harmony that falls apart as soon as those goals diverge.

An alien civilization would have to consist of highly specialized individuals that are perfectly satisfied with their lot in life, a condition unknown to humans, and one that corresponds, to our minds, as a brutal dystopia. Since readers are humans and, since the early XXth century at least, accustomed to reviling groups with ideologies that clash with theirs, such an alien society will be tough to sell as anything but villainous.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

Yes and no. Humans generally cooperate due to the convergence of their own selfish goals, which creates an illusion of harmony - and illusion of harmony that falls apart as soon as those goals diverge.

An alien civilization would have to consist of highly specialized individuals that are perfectly satisfied with their lot in life, a condition unknown to humans, and one that corresponds, to our minds, as a brutal dystopia. Since readers are humans and, since the early XXth century at least, accustomed to reviling groups with ideologies that clash with theirs, such an alien society will be tough to sell as anything but villainous.

 

Perhaps. But I really do not write to appease the sensibilites of the masses.

If snyone thinks I am writing the Federation 2.0 with humanity and Earth being the center of everything think again! Because surely other races won't see it that way. Everybody kinda views their homeworld as the best, given how alien life is uniquely designed for alien worlds... not our earth. They would need a breathing apparatus to live here, or go in a room with alien atmosphere.

I well know that the differences between humans and aliens would and should create plenty of plotting and character of it's own.

That really is the point.

Take an alien or human, then expose them to things alien to them personally.

Then sit back and enjoy the reactions and the later proactive action taken to achieve what they desire.

[DDE]

52 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Everybody kinda views their homeworld as the best, given how alien life is uniquely designed for alien worlds... not our earth.

I see you’ve entirely missed the astropolitical standpoint of the book you’re badmouthing.

[radonek]

My take would be "post-scarcity anarchistic meritocracy". In short, the Culture. 

[kerbiloid]

52 minutes ago, radonek said:

anarchistic meritocracy

anarchistic meritocracy

Isn't here some contradiction?

Also, if anarchistic, then who is selecting merito? And should a non-merito be under their cracy?

So, looks like "anarchistic meritocracy" = "free lords are equal, and thou shalt obey them"

Edited June 16, 2019 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

15 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

such aliens could make compelling villains if written right, but they also do not have to be placed in a villain role.

They could be allies, even heroes in a story, even if readers do not agreer nor adhere to how they act.

 

3 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

... with humanity and Earth being the center of everything think again! Because surely other races won't see it that way. Everybody kinda views their homeworld as the best, given how alien life is uniquely designed for alien worlds...

Actually, before we all get ahead of ourselves, do you want to insert some messages into your story ?

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, YNM said:

 

Actually, before we all get ahead of ourselves, do you want to insert some messages into your story ?

 

Primarily I like scifi because for me it is a what if fantasy.

I like when it is honest about mankind and aliens. Not pretending that we would be exactly the same in behavior or goals.

Or even needs.

Messages? None in particular that I will mention, as I will let the reader judge the work as I know they will.

 

 

[YNM]

51 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

I like when it is honest about mankind and aliens. Not pretending that we would be exactly the same in behavior or goals. Or even needs.

Messages? None in particular that I will mention, as I will let the reader judge the work as I know they will.

Most good stories inadvertently have them. Difficult to think of any good story that doesn't share a message.

Edited June 16, 2019 by YNM

[radonek]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

So, looks like "anarchistic meritocracy" = "free lords are equal, and thou shalt obey them"

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. "Free lords" being superintelligent AI's to whom other citizens defer simply because superintelligent AI's are much more able to run the show. Except its quite a bit  more complicated, suffice to say it's outright utopistic, yet I don't find it  naive or idealistic, just Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

Most good stories inadvertently have them. Difficult to think of any good story that doesn't share a message.

 

Well... I tend to think that sci-fi can be a medium to share messages to the world. If I would send messages to the world then they had better be worthwhile.

Fictional aliens vs humans is a study of cultural tolerance and intergration. Or lack thereof.

Characters themselves would represent possible paths and outcomes that would occur in the scenarios if that stuff were actually real.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Spacescifi

[DDE]

7 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

anarchistic meritocracy

Isn't here some contradiction?

Also, if anarchistic, then who is selecting merito? And should a non-merito be under their cracy?

So, looks like "anarchistic meritocracy" = "free lords are equal, and thou shalt obey them"

It's interesting that almost everyone who goes all in on meritocracy is an authoritarian. That's the opposite of anarchy.