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KSP Loading... Preview: Grip Pads

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2019 at 10:43 AM, Jognt said:

It looks nice. But I have to admit I’m skeptical about whether or not it will play nice. Anything new at this point sounds like ‘another thing I’ll need to fix myself/with a mod’. 

Please.. give me a good reason to believe in you guys again. :( 

Edit: there are several mentions of people being excited about using these for landing legs/bases, yet on the first page there’s already a post that says these aren’t going to help (much) with that. Is this really just another disappointment waiting to be released?

How about we wait and see rather than assuming the worst?  

 

I guess I must be different, but I have not been disappointed by much of anything in KSP. Yes, there are some irritating bugs--bouncing landing gear has been a persistent annoyance--but overall, it is amazing game with a great community.  I'd be inclined to say it is a glass half-full vs half-empty mindset, but then I am reminded of the joke:

 

What is the difference between an optimist, a pessimist and an engineer?

 

The optimist sees the glass as half full.

The pessimist says it is half empty.

The engineer declares it is the wrong sized glass.

Edited by Klapaucius
typo

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, sh1pman said:

Wouldn’t it be great if there was a way to nail bases/landers to the ground? 

No. It would be great to not have to consider asking that question.

10 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

How about we wait and see rather than assuming the worst? 

Did you miss the part about a dev already saying we can't use these pads for the purpose of base stabilization? Feel free to keep running towards that carrot on a stick. But the past few carrots were an onion that looked like a carrot from an angle, and the stick was a cardboard cutout.

It'd be nice to get an actual carrot. But hey.. track record and such.

Edited by Jognt

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9 minutes ago, Jognt said:

Did you miss the part about a dev already saying we can't use these pads for the purpose of base stabilization? Feel free to keep running towards that carrot on a stick. But the past few carrots were an onion that looked like a carrot from an angle, and the stick was a cardboard cutout.

It'd be nice to get an actual carrot. But hey.. track record and such.

On 6/26/2019 at 11:34 AM, nestor said:

This isn't magic, it won't fix all sliding bases but should help a bit. 

I see the quote above. Sounds like it will do exactly what I expect it to do. It is not a pylon drilled into the ground.

Moreover, this and the improvements to the KAL 1000 Controller were announced not long after two threads were posted in the suggestions forum.  I was amazed that we were heard and it was acted upon so quickly.  So, yes, I do feel quite optimistic about where the game is and is going at the moment.  So I did get two carrots recently.

 

My suggestion is to be proactive and post that part suggestion on the suggestions page. I will wholeheartedly support it. It is a good idea, but it is not exactly the problem these parts are solving.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

I see the quote above. Sounds like it will do exactly what I expect it to do. It is not a pylon drilled into the ground.

Moreover, this and the improvements to the KAL 1000 Controller were announced not long after two threads were posted in the suggestions forum.  I was amazed that we were heard and it was acted upon so quickly.  So, yes, I do feel quite optimistic about where the game is and is going at the moment.  So I did get two carrots recently.

 

My suggestion is to be proactive and post that part suggestion on the suggestions page. I will wholeheartedly support it. It is a good idea, but it is not exactly the problem these parts are solving.

Post what part suggestion? I don't want a new shiny part. I want the shiny parts that I already have to be attached with solid rigging instead of duct tape. (metaphor)

Edit: I can feel a "If you're not going to suggest improvements, you cannot complain" coming: If the things I'd suggest were in need of being suggested, then the lack of attention to detail required to not realize these suggestions would be suggested means that my suggestions would not be properly interpreted, because they're not rocket science. Everything I can say has already been suggested and asked over and over and over again. If the ability to properly implement these suggestions was there, it'd have been done already. Therefore it's useless to spend the energy on repeating it, because the ability to properly implement it is missing.

Edited by Jognt

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2019 at 1:22 AM, sh1pman said:

Wouldn’t it be great if there was a way to nail bases/landers to the ground? 

How does KAS do it?

 

Edited by KerbMav

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Posted (edited)
On 7/1/2019 at 11:41 PM, KerbMav said:

How does KAS do it?

 

I dunno, maybe it glues them down with kraken eggs...

Edited by StrandedonEarth

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Posted (edited)

Lets remember that most games cant implement mods without risking some stability standards.So maybe KAS does it by playing around kraken playgrounds but that just cant happen in an official release.

Edited by Boyster

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We have a part in stock that is anchored to the ground - the launch clamps. Maybe KAS simply reused that code :)

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Posted (edited)

Sorry, did loose my ability to read and commented nonsense... Ignore please...

(i hope its temporary)

Edited by Frank_G

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26 minutes ago, Kerballing (Got Dunked On) said:

Heck yeah they are! Man, I wish I had enough $$ to buy BG... :(

I believe it’s on sale on Steam now for something like $8.

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So, they're like Rockler's Bench Cookies? They should use this stuff to replace the Teflon on the bottom of Kerbals boots so that a gentle slope doesn't send them send them hurtling at 100 m/s to their doom.

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:36 AM, YouCrackMeUp said:

So, they're like Rockler's Bench Cookies? They should use this stuff to replace the Teflon on the bottom of Kerbals boots so that a gentle slope doesn't send them send them hurtling at 100 m/s to their doom.

They tried but it won't stick to the bottom of the boot. Only teflon will stick there. 

Go figure.

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17 hours ago, Starwaster said:

They tried but it won't stick to the bottom of the boot.

Nothing will stick to teflon.

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4 hours ago, AVaughan said:

Nothing will stick to teflon.

except Kerbals!

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23 hours ago, AVaughan said:

Nothing will stick to teflon.

Then how do they stick it to the pans? ;)

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Posted (edited)
On 6/26/2019 at 11:34 AM, nestor said:

This isn't magic, it won't fix all sliding bases but should help a bit.

Uhh, how about fixing the damn sliding of landed craft instead of mucking about with new parts then? How about some landing legs that don't bounce around like a possessed slinky, while we're on the topic of landed things?
The very first reply containing a worthwhile question was one regarding this ever-present sliding-craft jank, does that not indicate that it might be worth prioritising?

 

On 6/30/2019 at 11:34 AM, Jognt said:

It'd be nice to get an actual carrot.

Boy, would it ever. I'd settle for having things in contact with the surface behave in an intuitive and vaguely realistic manner.

What do we actually look to be getting? A workaround for a narrow use-case that fails to fix the underlying physics issues. Again.
Like wheel-brakes gluing craft to the ground at weird angles. Like Mandatory autostruts on landing-gear. Like disabling kerbal-vs wheelcollider collisions. Like hours wasted fiddling with PAW sliders on gear trying to make them stop behaving like perpetual-motion machines.

Edited by steve_v

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I have made an interesting observation reading through this thread, and musing on some similar ones.

 

KSP:  We made a new toy for you to play with!!

Half of the forum:  This is the best thing EVER!  I can't wait to play with these and use them for all the things they aren't meant to do!  Streamers are going to break the space-time continuum with these!  YAY!

Other half of the forum:  I don't get it.  Why are you giving us more toys?  I hate fun.  This is the stupidest idea ever, you should do this other thing that makes more sense.  I scoff at your offering.

In short, I've surmised that half of Kerbal users have the mentality of dogs:  "OH BOY! I LOVE THIS!  THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!  OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY!" 

The other half have the mentality of cats:  "I am cynically indifferent to your efforts and will only under very grudging circumstances show any affinity to you, and then I will probably bite you for it."

Kerbal dogs and cats.  There you have it.

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33 minutes ago, steve_v said:

What do we actually look to be getting? A workaround for a narrow use-case that fails to fix the underlying physics issues. Again.

Like wheel-brakes gluing craft to the ground at weird angles. Like Mandatory autostruts on landing-gear. Like disabling kerbal-vs wheelcollider collisions. Like hours wasted fiddling with PAW sliders on gear trying to make them stop behaving like perpetual-motion machines.

They're not actually physics issues. They're logical consequences of how it was programmed.

Unity actually has built-in stuff to set the 'grip' for stuff. It's called PhysicMaterial. It's actually set for everything as far as I know, but the default is 0.4 (0 = ice, 1 = stuck like a nail) and set to average that of the object and surface.
That's what makes the new grippy pads grippy by the way. They just have their physicmaterial numbers cranked up.
Normal legs sliding isn't so much a bug as it is just them not having this value customized as far as I know. (Though I am not a game dev, so take that with a grain of salt)

Wheel brakes gluing craft to the ground at weird angles? That's due to how braking is implemented, causing torque in the pitch-down direction when braking, combine that with how the springs are programmed to auto-adjust and you get this behavior.

It's actually funny, because most of the 'bugs' we currently experience with landing legs and gear are because of the devs trying frantically to make it so they always work. Instead of there being a cutoff that says "they'll work with these loads, and otherwise they'll break", it's trying to do all sorts of adjusting to try and not break, which causes the stuff we see.

The code doesn't need fixing. The code needs a do-over with a mindset that is about making stuff behave within believable margins instead of trying to make stuff behave at all times.

4 minutes ago, MaxPeck said:

I have made an interesting observation reading through this thread, and musing on some similar ones.

 

KSP:  We made a new toy for you to play with!!

Half of the forum:  This is the best thing EVER!  I can't wait to play with these and use them for all the things they aren't meant to do!  Streamers are going to break the space-time continuum with these!  YAY!

Other half of the forum:  I don't get it.  Why are you giving us more toys?  I hate fun.  This is the stupidest idea ever, you should do this other thing that makes more sense.  I scoff at your offering.

In short, I've surmised that half of Kerbal users have the mentality of dogs:  "OH BOY! I LOVE THIS!  THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER!  OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY!" 

The other half have the mentality of cats:  "I am cynically indifferent to your efforts and will only under very grudging circumstances show any affinity to you, and then I will probably bite you for it."

Kerbal dogs and cats.  There you have it.

That's .... actually strangely accurate. :o

Though I can understand both the cats and dogs, and consider my own PoV more nuanced. (Though I admit everyone considers their own PoV more nuanced..)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MaxPeck said:

Other half of the forum:  I don't get it.  Why are you giving us more toys?  I hate fun.  This is the stupidest idea ever, you should do this other thing that makes more sense.  I scoff at your offering.

I don't really see how prioritising the fixing of existing toys over the introduction of new ones is "hating fun", I for one would have a lot more of it if the existing and often-used systems worked properly.
Quality over quantity my man, quality over quantity.

 

1 hour ago, Jognt said:

They're not actually physics issues. They're logical consequences of how it was programmed.

Surface friction, sure. The jankiness of the wheel/suspension system I'm not so sure about, all the discussion I've seen makes it sound like a problem with Unity's physics model. Either way it's a major pain in the ass.
 

1 hour ago, Jognt said:

Wheel brakes gluing craft to the ground at weird angles? That's due to how braking is implemented, causing torque in the pitch-down direction when braking, combine that with how the springs are programmed to auto-adjust and you get this behavior.

I'm referring to a fairly recent "fix" for stationary craft with landing-gear wheels slowly sliding down a gentle slope even with the brakes on - namely nailing them to the ground when brakes=1 and speed=0 .
The unintended consequence of this is that if I land a plane on 2 wheels, and it somehow comes to rest still on 2 wheels, it will stay that way in defiance of gravity until the brakes are released... Because apparently the solution to the sliding problem is yet another dirty hack rather than sorting out friction in general. :confused:
I was actually abusing this jank earlier today, while driving a rover up a far-too-steep slope. Front wheels lifting and about to go end-over-end? No problem, just apply the brakes flypaper.
 

1 hour ago, Jognt said:

It's actually funny, because most of the 'bugs' we currently experience with landing legs and gear are because of the devs trying frantically to make it so they always work. Instead of there being a cutoff that says "they'll work with these loads, and otherwise they'll break", it's trying to do all sorts of adjusting to try and not break, which causes the stuff we see.

The code doesn't need fixing. The code needs a do-over with a mindset that is about making stuff behave within believable margins instead of trying to make stuff behave at all times.

Indeed. IME the transition to the new wheel model was a case of just this - a simple system that either worked well or not at all depending on the craft design was replaced with a complicated auto-adjusting monstrosity that behaves unpredictably almost all the time.

The new spring system in particular is a nightmare to work with, we went from "my gear went poof, guess I'm too heavy" to "why the hell is my plane behaving like a pogo-stick/launching violently back into the air on touchdown?"
Add to this the ridiculous forces that springs generate when subjected to sudden changes in load, such as part of another craft (or until recently a kerbal) touching the surface collider or the suspension reaching end-of-travel, and you have a recipe for random, incredibly frustrating RUD.

Edited by steve_v

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3 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Surface friction, sure. The jankiness of the wheel/suspension system I'm not so sure about, all the discussion I've seen makes it sound like a problem with Unity's physics model. Either way it's a major pain in the ass.

I'm referring to a fairly recent "fix" for stationary craft with landing-gear wheels slowly sliding down a gentle slope even with the brakes on - namely nailing them to the ground when brakes=1 and speed=0 .
The unintended consequence of this is that if I land a plane on 2 wheels, and it somehow comes to rest still on 2 wheels, it will stay that way in defiance of gravity until the brakes are released... Because apparently the solution to the sliding problem is yet another dirty hack rather than sorting out friction in general. :confused:
I was actually abusing this jank earlier today, while driving a rover up a far-too-steep slope. Front wheels lifting and about to go end-over-end? No problem, just apply the brakes flypaper.
 

Indeed. IME the transition to the new wheel model was a case of just this - a simple system that either worked well or not at all depending on the craft design was replaced with a complicated auto-adjusting monstrosity that behaves unpredictably almost all the time.

The new spring system in particular is a nightmare to work with, we went from "my gear went poof, guess I'm too heavy" to "why the hell is my plane behaving like a pogo-stick/launching violently back into the air on touchdown?"
Add to this the ridiculous forces that springs generate when subjected to sudden changes in load, such as part of another craft (or until recently a kerbal) touching the surface collider or the suspension reaching end-of-travel, and you have a recipe for random, incredibly frustrating RUD.

Kinda like the shuttle. Overengineered to try and do as much as possible but resulting in something that is not very good in all of them. 

At least it means the devs are trying REALLY hard to make it work. I just hope they turn around and realize it doesn’t have to always work, it just has to give the player feedback on why it broke. (Landing gear wheel stress for example. I never really see it move..)

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jognt said:

Landing gear wheel stress for example. I never really see it move..

That's mostly a case of another knee-jerk quick-fix for a release-day problem as far as I recall. When the new wheels first appeared they were rather easy to break and the aforementioned spring jank made them do so constantly for no apparent reason.
People complained, so SQUAD buffed the load tolerance into the stratosphere, presumably because it's a simple config change and doesn't require delving into the spring physics code.

Edited by steve_v

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Just now, steve_v said:

That's mostly a case of another knee-jerk quick-fix for a release-day problem as far as I recall. When the new wheel system first appeared gear were rather easy to break and the aforementioned spring jank made them do so constantly for no apparent reason.
People complained, so SQUAD buffed the load tolerance into the stratosphere, presumably because it's a simple config change and doesn't require delving into the spring physics code.

 

Yeah the irony isn’t lost on me that I -a member of the community- am basically saying Squad should listen to me to improve the game, when this kind of problem is exactly what happens when a dev.. listens to the community too much. 

And though I’d like to think my ideas are better than some of those of others, I am also aware of the fact that.. EVERYONE thinks that. :D 

Im just going to go back to building my space station :) 

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Just now, Jognt said:

 

Yeah the irony isn’t lost on me that I -a member of the community- am basically saying Squad should listen to me to improve the game, when this kind of problem is exactly what happens when a dev.. listens to the community too much. 

And though I’d like to think my ideas are better than some of those of others, I am also aware of the fact that.. EVERYONE thinks that. :D

I know, I know, and I don't disagree. I've just been watching KSP accumulate quick not-really-fixes for a long time, and they never seem to get sorted out properly, just plastered over with more quick-fixes and buried under a mountain of "shiny new stuff" hype.
I'm not claiming to know better than anyone, and I sure don't know how to fix this stuff myself or I would have done so already. It's just frustrating the number of years I've been waiting and hoping for this game to loose it's early-access jank and stop shipping new bugs with every release.

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