benjee10

[1.7.X] Shuttle Orbiter Construction Kit | Stockalike Space Shuttle Orbiter! | (Initial Release!) | v1.0.0

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6 hours ago, benjee10 said:

 

Locking the arm parts either in flight or in the VAB basically allows autostrut to run past the robotic joints, so you also need to turn autostrut on on the end effector part, otherwise it doesn’t have any effect other than to prevent the robotic parts actuating actively. When the parts are unlocked autostrut is ignored.

Sorry to be a bother Benjee but I was in the VAB and in flight with the robotic arm. I don't see an option to lock the joints. It only gives me options regarding the motors. Forgive me for being so lost on this. 

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5 hours ago, Thomas Edison said:

Just tried that, No success. Any suggestions? Im going to try maybe something like KJR.

(UPDATE)

Kerbal Joint reinforcement- Next, Has fixed the problem as I can see. 

Hmm, not sure what to suggest, but glad KJR has helped.

7 minutes ago, Gunslinger1 said:

Sorry to be a bother Benjee but I was in the VAB and in flight with the robotic arm. I don't see an option to lock the joints. It only gives me options regarding the motors. Forgive me for being so lost on this. 

The lock in VAB option is only available in 1.7.2+. In 1.7.1 you’ll need to assign the ‘lock joint’ option to an action group and trigger it before launch.

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6 hours ago, benjee10 said:

Hmm, not sure what to suggest, but glad KJR has helped.

The lock in VAB option is only available in 1.7.2+. In 1.7.1 you’ll need to assign the ‘lock joint’ option to an action group and trigger it before launch.

I have 1.7.3 and for some reason I do not see 'lock joint' on any part. I have looked at this both in the VAB and on the launch pad. I don't see a 'lock joint' option to add to an action group either. I attempted to link images but for some reason it won't load...

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Seems that I might of found an issue with the airbrakes. You can see here they dont deploy correctly normally with just hitting extend or with an action group. But when I invert the left one it works fine. Hope you maybe can fix this.  https://imgur.com/gallery/PfaTndj

EDIT!

In the photo it shows me inverting the right one. when I invert the left not the right it works fine.

Edited by Thomas Edison

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14 hours ago, Gunslinger1 said:

I have 1.7.3 and for some reason I do not see 'lock joint' on any part. I have looked at this both in the VAB and on the launch pad. I don't see a 'lock joint' option to add to an action group either. I attempted to link images but for some reason it won't load...

 

 

Are you using breaking ground or do you have infernal robotics installed?

29 minutes ago, Thomas Edison said:

Seems that I might of found an issue with the airbrakes. You can see here they dont deploy correctly normally with just hitting extend or with an action group. But when I invert the left one it works fine. Hope you maybe can fix this.  https://imgur.com/gallery/PfaTndj

EDIT!

In the photo it shows me inverting the right one. when I invert the left not the right it works fine.

This is known and expected. It’s a limitation of how control surfaces are implemented in KSP.

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9 hours ago, benjee10 said:

Are you using breaking ground or do you have infernal robotics installed?

This is known and expected. It’s a limitation of how control surfaces are implemented in KSP.

I am using breaking ground. I do not have Infernal Robotics installed. Do either of these conflict? I don't believe I've seen them as dependencies. 

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Posted (edited)

Hello!
Just wanted to add that fans of this pretty cool  Add-on might want to take a look at the video in the link bellow, in which A.Savage visits the actual retired Discovery Space Shuttle:
 

 

Edited by Cataclism

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Posted (edited)

Any plans for an IVA for this bad boy?
Cracking job on the -15 degree control point!  I automatically added one to the craft and then read the forums and saw there was no need!  (Does it auto-switch control perspective when you activate/deactivate the OMS?)

I'm also having RMS/Auto Strut/Lock Joint wobble issues at liftoff.
I was going to simply try an explicit strut part and see if that helped at all.
** It didn't. It just made it completely immobile.

It's stated that this addon will work best with a 2.5x sized system (proportionate to Kerbin's), but I see the MechJeb2 Autopilot is using PVG?
How can this be, as I was fairly well certain that only works in an RSS situation?
Are there already RSS/RO configs for this beast?!

This is a magnificent looking shuttle.  And I love the manual.

Thank you for this project!

***Update:***
Figured out the RMS issue.
There's 11 separate parts that make up the RMS.
They must all be auto-strutted, and the joints must be locked.
There are more joints than you think.
3 Axial Servo Joints (These are tiny!)
3 Servo Pitch Joints
1 Elbow Servo Joint

Edited by slaintemaith

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On 8/12/2019 at 5:40 AM, Gunslinger1 said:

I am using breaking ground. I do not have Infernal Robotics installed. Do either of these conflict? I don't believe I've seen them as dependencies. 

Infernal robotics will override breaking ground if installed, but since you’re not using it I’m not sure what the cause of your problems is. I can’t replicate the issue unfortunately.

37 minutes ago, slaintemaith said:

Any plans for an IVA for this bad boy?
Cracking job on the -15 degree control point!  I automatically added one to the craft and then read the forums and saw there was no need!  (Does it auto-switch control perspective when you activate/deactivate the OMS?)

I'm also having RMS/Auto Strut/Lock Joint wobble issues at liftoff.
I was going to simply try an explicit strut part and see if that helped at all.

It's stated that this addon will work best with a 2.5x sized system (proportionate to Kerbin's), but I see the MechJeb2 Autopilot is using PVG?
How can this be, as I was fairly well certain that only works in an RSS situation?
Are there already RSS/RO configs for this beast?!

This is a magnificent looking shuttle.  And I love the manual.

Thank you for this project!

Glad you like it! There is already an IVA for both the cockpit and the docking module so not sure what you mean by that - hoping to include support for RPM/MAS in future but otherwise pretty happy with the IVA as it stands.

PVG is included with stock MechJeb but works better the larger the system you play on. 2.5x works pretty nicely, and JNSQ (which is natively 2.7x) works with the shuttle flawlessly (in fact, 2.7x is probably the best system scale for the shuttle with a reDIRECT stack).

I’m going to look into the joint wobble issues when I get a bit more free time since lots of people seem to be having issues with it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, benjee10 said:

I’m going to look into the joint wobble issues when I get a bit more free time since lots of people seem to be having issues with it.

See my above (edited) post.
I fixed it.  It's tricky.

8 minutes ago, benjee10 said:

There is already an IVA for both the cockpit and the docking module so not sure what you mean by that - hoping to include support for RPM/MAS in future but otherwise pretty happy with the IVA as it stands.

Hrm.  I guess I meant "fully-able-to-run-a-mission-from-inside-of-the-cockpit" IVA.
That's a lot more work.
I wonder if there's some way to add Kermantech's IVA to this?  (I know it's designed for the Mk3 Cockpit--but if it could be converted, it seems like most of the work is done for you  Unless, of course, that -is- the work-part.)

These might still work, too?
 

 

Edited by slaintemaith

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33 minutes ago, slaintemaith said:

See my above (edited) post.
I fixed it.  It's tricky.

Hrm.  I guess I meant "fully-able-to-run-a-mission-from-inside-of-the-cockpit" IVA.
That's a lot more work.
I wonder if there's some way to add Kermantech's IVA to this?  (I know it's designed for the Mk3 Cockpit--but if it could be converted, it seems like most of the work is done for you  Unless, of course, that -is- the work-part.)

These might still work, too?
 

 

Ah yes, that makes sense - although you should only need to autostrut the outermost part to get it stable, not all of them.

In terms of IVAs, it would be more work to convert those mods for this IVA than doing it from scratch. As the dimensions of the shuttle cockpit are different from the mk3 cockpit the interiors don’t match up.

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Is there a way to make the PVG in mechjeb2 work better with the stock scale? Ive been having issues with mechjeb deciding the shuttle should go prograde in PVG.

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59 minutes ago, Thomas Edison said:

Is there a way to make the PVG in mechjeb2 work better with the stock scale? Ive been having issues with mechjeb deciding the shuttle should go prograde in PVG.

PVG is based off of realworld guidance algorithms and is optmised for RSS. Even at 2.5x/2.7x it often ends up pointing radially down around15 degrees with most rockets if the upper stage TWR isnt very very low. Perhaps turning off OmitCoast so that it doesnt try a single burn to orbit might help? Maybe cutting down the thrust on the main engines in the VAB such that you have no more than 1:1 TWR at booster sep might be another option. At least that way your twr is going to be a bit lower at the end of the ascent which would help I think.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/14/2019 at 1:12 AM, Thomas Edison said:

Is there a way to make the PVG in mechjeb2 work better with the stock scale? Ive been having issues with mechjeb deciding the shuttle should go prograde in PVG.

I've had zero luck with the PVG outside of RSS/RO, and with Space Shuttles, I've had crap luck even with RSS/RO.
I've had great luck with these settings, though, using the classic ascent program.
Granted, I'm using a 2.5x Stock sized RSS, but it should still be close for Kerbin.
The image (barely) shows the resultant almost-orbit you want with a Shuttle. (This one is 201.577 x 44.647)  Less than 90m/s to circularize!

*Note: I neglected to set "Stop At Stage #:" to 3.  Your results may vary depending on how you set up your .craft.

**Note:  Also all gimbals and control surfaces are ON, and all are set for Roll, Pitch, and Yaw.  Use the Hybrid version of Attitude Control. (In the Attitude Adjustment Program)

ZKxRDEY.png

Edited by slaintemaith

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My issue now is how to avoid flat-spinning from around 1200m/s at 30km until I get down to about 9km where the air is thick enough for the control surfaces not to cock everything up.
I still have issues even after dumping all the aft propellants.

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9 hours ago, slaintemaith said:

I've had zero luck with the PVG outside of RSS/RO, and with Space Shuttles, I've had crap luck even with RSS/RO.
I've had great luck with these settings, though, using the classic ascent program.
Granted, I'm using a 2.5x Stock sized RSS, but it should still be close for Kerbin.
The image (barely) shows the resultant almost-orbit you want with a Shuttle. (This one is 201.577 x 44.647)  Less than 90m/s to circularize!

*Note: I neglected to set "Stop At Stage #:" to 3.  Your results may vary depending on how you set up your .craft.

**Note:  Also all gimbals and control surfaces are ON, and all are set for Roll, Pitch, and Yaw.  Use the Hybrid version of Attitude Control. (In the Attitude Adjustment Program)

ZKxRDEY.png

PVG works nicely with this shuttle, certainly in 2.5x. The procedure for it is in the manual, you have to be sure to control from the -15 degree control point after booster sep, and hen roll heads up.

12 minutes ago, slaintemaith said:

My issue now is how to avoid flat-spinning from around 1200m/s at 30km until I get down to about 9km where the air is thick enough for the control surfaces not to cock everything up.
I still have issues even after dumping all the aft propellants.

Transfer propellant backwards when landing without a payload, you want to maintain some mass at the back to remain stable high up. Also be sure to reset the 15 degree offset prior to entry, and don’t pitch up too hard! I’ve found around 30 degrees works nicely as an initial AoA (real shuttle was around 40, but I couldn’t get everything to quite match up to real life), slowly dropping down as you dip into the atmosphere. I’ve flown over 40 test flights with the shuttle now and can get PVG to work very reliably and keep complete control down to the runway - you just need to find the technique, and when you do it becomes pretty repeatable. I’ve tried to outline it best I can in the manual.

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11 hours ago, slaintemaith said:

 

11 hours ago, slaintemaith said:

I've had zero luck with the PVG outside of RSS/RO, and with Space Shuttles, I've had crap luck even with RSS/RO.
I've had great luck with these settings, though, using the classic ascent program.
Granted, I'm using a 2.5x Stock sized RSS, but it should still be close for Kerbin.
The image (barely) shows the resultant almost-orbit you want with a Shuttle. (This one is 201.577 x 44.647)  Less than 90m/s to circularize!

*Note: I neglected to set "Stop At Stage #:" to 3.  Your results may vary depending on how you set up your .craft.

**Note:  Also all gimbals and control surfaces are ON, and all are set for Roll, Pitch, and Yaw.  Use the Hybrid version of Attitude Control. (In the Attitude Adjustment Program)

ZKxRDEY.png


Thanks!

 

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If you really launch with stock scale kerbin, GravityTurn is a good autopilot but, there is no mode for target.

Set Roll to 180

Set Turn angle to 20.00

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11 hours ago, benjee10 said:

PVG works nicely with this shuttle, certainly in 2.5x. The procedure for it is in the manual, you have to be sure to control from the -15 degree control point after booster sep, and hen roll heads up.

Is it possible to attach the control-point switch to an action group?  When I add -15 degree offset pieces to other shuttles, I always do a "control from here" in an action group that activates the OMS engines.  Then switch it back to the cockpit when I disengage them.
It'd be nice to be able to do that with this as well.
Consider it a "respectful feature request."  =)

11 hours ago, benjee10 said:

Transfer propellant backwards when landing without a payload, you want to maintain some mass at the back to remain stable high up.

Heh.  This goes against everything I was ever taught regarding CoG and RC airplanes.  ("A nose-heavy plane flies sluggishly, a tail-heavy plane flies once.")
I'll give it a go!  Thanks for the info!

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7 minutes ago, slaintemaith said:

Is it possible to attach the control-point switch to an action group?  When I add -15 degree offset pieces to other shuttles, I always do a "control from here" in an action group that activates the OMS engines.  Then switch it back to the cockpit when I disengage them.
It'd be nice to be able to do that with this as well.
Consider it a "respectful feature request."  =)

Heh.  This goes against everything I was ever taught regarding CoG and RC airplanes.  ("A nose-heavy plane flies sluggishly, a tail-heavy plane flies once.")
I'll give it a go!  Thanks for the info!

Unfortunately there’s no way of binding the control point switch to action groups - I wish you could, but this is a feature request you’d need to take up with squad. 

You’re not making the shuttle tail-heavy per se, just bringing the CoM back far enough to maintain control authority. If it’s too far forward you lose the ability to pitch up, which is fairly crucial to a shuttle ;) and at high AoAs, the CoM can slip ahead of the CoL and cause loss of control.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, benjee10 said:

Unfortunately there’s no way of binding the control point switch to action groups - I wish you could, but this is a feature request you’d need to take up with squad. 

You’re not making the shuttle tail-heavy per se, just bringing the CoM back far enough to maintain control authority. If it’s too far forward you lose the ability to pitch up, which is fairly crucial to a shuttle ;) and at high AoAs, the CoM can slip ahead of the CoL and cause loss of control.

I'm used to other shuttles which handle CoG ...differently.

 

PVG does work.  Only it also puts the ship in the 300x100 orbit, which means the ET doesn't burn up.
300x70 works just as well for 2.5x and will grab the tank.  
Guess I should have looked at the manual a bit closer--I was appreciating the aesthetic more than the actual content when I looked over it before.  =)

Re: Control Group: So if I just add a small control core in the nose, turn it the requisite -15 degrees AND rotate it 180 degrees, I can tie that to an action group and perform the roll and pitch at SRB sep with the touch one one button.
(The fact that this is also tied with OMS just means I get an OMS Assist as well--something the real shuttle did later on.)  Orbital ops were typically done with the orbiter on its back anyway to keep the sun off the bay doors--which had a tendency not to want to close due to the heat expansion.

 

Edited by slaintemaith

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1 hour ago, slaintemaith said:


Re: Control Group: So if I just add a small control core in the nose, turn it the requisite -15 degrees AND rotate it 180 degrees, I can tie that to an action group and perform the roll and pitch at SRB sep with the touch one one button.
(The fact that this is also tied with OMS just means I get an OMS Assist as well--something the real shuttle did later on.)  Orbital ops were typically done with the orbiter on its back anyway to keep the sun off the bay doors--which had a tendency not to want to close due to the heat expansion.

 

 

1 hour ago, benjee10 said:

Unfortunately there’s no way of binding the control point switch to action groups - I wish you could, but this is a feature request you’d need to take up with squad. 

 

I believe there is a mod for it! I havent tried it myself yet but plan to for the next shuttle mission.

 

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1 hour ago, benjee10 said:

Unfortunately there’s no way of binding the control point switch to action groups - I wish you could, but this is a feature request you’d need to take up with squad.

 

25 minutes ago, Zorg said:

I believe there is a mod for it! I havent tried it myself yet but plan to for the next shuttle mission.

 

Indeed there is.  ;)

That mod is designed specifically to support exactly this type of scenario (i.e. spaceplane-style reentry where you want to hold a slightly-nose-up attitude).

Not only does it allow you to use action groups to switch control points, but it also implements a "Pitched" control point whose angle you can control with a menu slider or axis binding.  So, if you choose to use the mod,

  • you don't need to add any extra parts rotated 15 degrees or whatever-- you can just use the stock parts mounted pointing :prograde:
  • you can toggle between :prograde: and nose-up with an action group
  • you can use a right-click menu slider, or axis binding keys, to adjust the nose-up angle you want, in flight (anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees)
  • you can patch it with ModuleManager to adjust the limits of the sliders, if you don't like the default choices

Sorry, don't mean to plug the mod, just that it may be helpful since it's designed for exactly this.  It's very lightweight and doesn't add any UI other than new part actions and a new right-click menu slider when the "pitched" control point is active.

(And yeah, it would be nice if the stock game had something like this, no argument there!)

[EDIT] Pinging @slaintemaith, since that's the person who asked the original question and may be interested.  ;)

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22 minutes ago, Snark said:

Pinging @slaintemaith, since that's the person who asked the original question and may be interested.  ;)

I never knew this was a thing!  Thank you so much!

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