Jump to content

[New] Space Launch System / Orion Discussion Thread


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said:

@ZooNamedGames

Can you get the core into a stable orbit?

whats the pic for? I wasn’t trying to criticise SLS

Probably, after all it's designed to throw massive amounts of mass into orbit. So therefore no mass and reduced throttle (which the RS-25 is capable of) should be feasible.

Pic is just relevant to the topic of the thread. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, jadebenn said:

I don't understand your argument. The Saturn V didn't bring people directly to the lunar surface either.

The LV moved a stack  to TLI capable of landing people on the surface, and returning them to Earth.

SLS cannot do this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Probably, after all it's designed to throw massive amounts of mass into orbit. So therefore no mass and reduced throttle (which the RS-25 is capable of) should be feasible.

Block 1 SLS core has to do a lot of maneuvering to avoid going into orbit, actually. SLS could easily be a two-stage to orbit design, which should be unsurprising when you consider what it's derived from. The RS-25s, however, cannot be relit once they're extinguished. That was a major hangup during the design of Ares I, and was what ultimately caused the ill-fated switch to J-2X.

Edited by jadebenn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, tater said:

The LV moved a stack  to TLI capable of landing people on the surface, and returning them to Earth.

SLS cannot do this.

It can't do it in one launch, but that's not really required, is it? What is required is getting people to cislunar space to begin with, which is something only a rocket as powerful as the SLS can do.

Edited by jadebenn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That rocket emporium image is pretty weak, argument wise. Save 11.8 whole million $! Wow. Whoever wrote that hasn't read the OIG GAO reports.

Just now, jadebenn said:

It can't do it in one launch, but that's not really required, is it? What is required is getting people to cislunar space to begin with, which is something only a rocket similarly as powerful as the SLS can do.

If the goal is the surface, NRHO is a poor place to go, as they need to get to LLO first. If they wanted distributed launch from the start, they should have designed a cost effective system to get multiple vehicles to LLO in the first place. They built SLS without any goal at all, which is my fundamental problem with it. I'm fine with building "capability" that can be used for multiple uses. If that was the goal, think of a wide range of possible uses, they design a system to do that. That includes cost, and it includes launch cadence.

Ares, for all its problems at least was designed as a system. Crew in 1 vehicle (Ares I), the craft that takes them places launched with another (Ares V). Yes, it wasn't going to work, but linking crew/cargo on one vehicle is pretty crippling for utility. "Gateway" is a thing entirely because it's what current SLS/Orion can do, not because it is needed for any other reason.

Pick desired throw weights to LEO and TLI, and do a clean sheet design, with not requirement of using anything at all (since none of the use of Shuttle related hardware has made it cheaper, or faster), and see if it looks like SLS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Probably, after all it's designed to throw massive amounts of mass into orbit. So therefore no mass and reduced throttle (which the RS-25 is capable of) should be feasible.

Hmmm, does the the SLS core have thrusters for orbital manoeuvring? docking/ refuelling etc? This seems like an unplanned extended capability that would need a new block design. (Thought it would be extremely interesting to give it that capability), I’m not sure if it’s likely at all. It would seem to require doubling down on the SLS program with even more funding and I haven’t seen anything about that possibility so far. 

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said:

Hmmm, does the the SLS core have thrusters for orbital manoeuvring? docking/ refuelling etc? This seems like an unplanned extended capability that would need a new block design. (Thought it would be extremely interesting to give it that capability), I’m not sure if it’s likely at all. It would seem to require doubling down on the SLS program with even more funding and I haven’t seen anything about that possibility so far. 

It's something that's theoretically possible, but would require a lot of design work to be made viable. So it almost certainly won't be done.

Edited by jadebenn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.space.com/orion-capsule-artemis-1-finished-photo.html

Spaceflight.com has also covered this story and mentions Pences' intent to utilize other commercial vehicles should SLS not be ready. Though he has also stated that "SLS has always been underfunded" and that this term will not reflect the same mistake. 

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/vice-president-unveils-nasa-spacecraft-for-artemis-1-lunar-mission-on-moon-landing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The images of Orion certainly don't seem like it's ready to go. There are missing tiles on the tiled sections, and are the solid panels covers to protect tiles, or instead of tiles, or covers where tiles will be? On the far side from where Pence was standing, there looks to be plastic. The hatch? Large areas with no tiles or whatever the large black things are?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, tater said:

The images of Orion certainly don't seem like it's ready to go. There are missing tiles on the tiled sections, and are the solid panels covers to protect tiles, or instead of tiles, or covers where tiles will be? On the far side from where Pence was standing, there looks to be plastic. The hatch? Large areas with no tiles or whatever the large black things are?

As far as I am aware it's largely complete minus the heatsheild attachment which already exists. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

As far as I am aware it's largely complete minus the heatsheild attachment which already exists. 

Yeah, I realize that, but I have seen tweets from Orion (official) I thought saying it was complete, yet the images clearly show missing tiles, etc. "Complete" is binary, it either needs some (even a tiny bit) of work, or it doesn't. That means ready to fly, IMO.

This is from ESA:

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, tater said:

Yeah, I realize that, but I have seen tweets from Orion (official) I thought saying it was complete, yet the images clearly show missing tiles, etc. "Complete" is binary, it either needs some (even a tiny bit) of work, or it doesn't. That means ready to fly, IMO.

This is from ESA:

 

 

 

Well as someone taking aviation maintenance course right now- a vehicle is never 100% complete. There’s enough tiny tasks to keep an engineer busy for multiple decades. Tiles can be replaced as flaws literally 1/1000th of the safety threshold limit are discovered- the tile won’t need to be replaced but can be replaced for a better tile, and that takes additional time, and makes it look in progress even though the vehicle is above the call of duty for flight. Or one of a 3 part redundant back up electrical system may be sticking in an ON/OFF position and not functioning perfectly leading to more work done- despite it being completely unnecessary and resolvable by the other present systems but it’s work to be done to ensure the vehicle is COMPLETE.

So it probably is complete- just not to the engineers who built it, and routinely tear parts off of it to fix one small issue, then rebuild it only to fix another issue, thus repeating the cycle ad nauseam. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mmmmm, that capsule is supposed to be a beast compared to dragon. I wonder if there’s a comparison anywhere.

Oooo I found this,

FF06-A658-FF97-420-A-B481-7-AEE6542532-A

5697be38fbb451d28075cd75fadac371.png

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Is the engine section attached yet?

No. They're still working on it.

18 minutes ago, Dale Christopher said:

Anyone know why Orion’s service module is smaller than the capsule? Seems like a waste of internal volume.

I don't really understand what you mean with the last part, but as for the first part, well... it's a long story.

Ready for the abbreviated version? Okay.

Ares 1 rocket. Upper stage SSME. This won't work. Change design. Upper stage J-2X. Now Ares 1 too weak. Orion needs less mass. Take from capsule. Ares 1 still too weak. Orion needs less mass. Take from service module. Ares 1 cancelled. Orion moved to SLS. Design stays same. President doesn't like Moon. NASA doesn't change service module. Election. New president likes Moon. Too late to change service module. Work around it.

That's the really compressed version of it.

Edited by jadebenn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

>_<

Spoiler

just meant that a shell the same diameter as the capsule would let you house more stuff inside (and look nicer ^.^ )

 

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

So it probably is complete- just not to the engineers who built it, and routinely tear parts off of it to fix one small issue, then rebuild it only to fix another issue, thus repeating the cycle ad nauseam. 

Complete in this context means ready to integrate to the stack for launch.

3 hours ago, jadebenn said:

Ares 1 rocket. Upper stage SSME. This won't work. Change design. Upper stage J-2X. Now Ares 1 too weak. Orion needs less mass. Take from capsule. Ares 1 still too weak. Orion needs less mass. Take from service module. Ares 1 cancelled. Orion moved to SLS. Design stays same. President doesn't like Moon. NASA doesn't change service module. Election. New president likes Moon. Too late to change service module. Work around it.

This is a nice shorthand and summarizes what I think is most wrong at the same time regarding mission goals vs capability. The short summary of that is that Constellation (and the comparison image of capsules above dates to that with the use of MPCV for Orion (Multi Purpose Crew Vehicle)) had crew launch to LEO in the kooky Ares I LV, and the precursor to SLS, Ares V, was for cargo. New admin sticks Orion on top of giant rocket, now giant rocket is used for a spacecraft designed for EoR operations.

Since they have a supposed roadmap for SLS Block 2 (advanced boosters added), they might as well make an Orion Block 2 plan with a SM that does what they might need one to do for proposed missions, vs doubling down on Gateway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, tater said:

Complete in this context means ready to integrate to the stack for launch. 

It probably is ready for stacking. It’s just until they get the call to ship it to the cape for the stack- they’ll continue to tinker on it. As tinkering on the small details does not mean it can’t be packed up and shipped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

It probably is ready for stacking. It’s just until they get the call to ship it to the cape for the stack- they’ll continue to tinker on it. As tinkering on the small details does not mean it can’t be packed up and shipped.

If it doesn't look identical to what it looks like right now when they stack it, it's not done yet. I'd be interested to see all of it, not just one side. Note that it should have been ready for a few years now, anyway given when it was supposed to have flown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

It probably is ready for stacking

It is not. I wish it was, but it is not.

They're aiming to have it complete by December.

Edited by jadebenn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...