REMEMBER: A KSP Collaborative Game based on Forgotten Space Program (modpack finalized (mostly))

[ruiluth]

13 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

I haven't had time to work out the details of this yet. Hopefully I will.

Thanks for your suggestions. I agree that complicating things really is a bad idea, and your suggestions both make a lot of sense and don't really diverge far from my system. My reasons for not doing this include:

• The "call home and ask for a rescue" aspect doesn't quite jibe with the "turn all antennas off" aspect, because what are they calling home with? @Geschosskopf mentioned that the original Forgotten space program had communication protocols between different cycles be different enough that no calls could be placed at all (honestly I'd forgotten (hah!) that aspect). I feel like keeping antennas on would rapidly change the game to "move the probes around using the last guy's antenna network" (could probably be mitigated by tracking station upgrades, but still an issue).
• On a related note, what if someone sends a mission beyond comms range? It seems unreasonable that they'd get a one-shot "boost" of comm power to get a rescue request through
• These could be explained by radar or something, but the feel I was trying to capture was one of exploring the relics of the past, finding out what's up there. Getting to play as all the other programs instantly is... not what I had in mind. (Admittedly, this aspect is already in the dumpster because people can just read the Forum thread)

Summary: I have some issues with giving each new player control over all the old ships.

How about a compromise, though? After their turn is over, each player gets a short amount of time for their ships to "react" to the news. Go through all your ships, describe what the Kerbals see and think if you want to, and make any burns to get them home if possible. The ships will be marked as "unknown" but controllable (I think I can do that) so that new players can easily filter them out but can control them for emergencies, like if they're about to hit a maneuver node or the atmosphere. This is JUST FOR EMERGENCIES though - the understanding is still that you don't get to play as everyone else's Kerbals.

The issue with some player launching a long mission, and then everyone else having to play on their behalf, is still there, but that's relatively far off, and by then the Kerbals will have figured out the Crash cycle so it makes sense to do it in a more community fashion.

What do people think about this?

I think that sounds fair, but also, I hate building relay networks! Also, I really liked in the first few posts of the original FSP when they launched their first relay, and to their surprise the signal starting bouncing all around LKO off of all kinds of debris. I think that was what originally clued them in to something being there in the first place. Of course, since he was using remotetech, the dishes had to be aligned and that added some challenge. Still though, I hate building relay networks and the save could quickly get very bogged down if every cycle has a whole new wave of commsats. That was one of the major problems with the original, craft overpopulation.

That said, I definitely don't think giving new players control is a good idea. My idea was more that if the crew can get in contact they'd ask for a rescue. Granted, I don't know how they wouldn't be in contact given my suggestion for commsats, but I think preventing overpopulation is more important. What's the point of playing this collab if it's chugs too hard to be fun? Therefore, there needs to be some way to clean up old craft. Kerbals wanting to return home seems like a good mechanism for that to me, but I'd be happy as long as there was some way to address that issue.

 

Also, have you seen CommNet Constellation? It's specifically made to prevent certain satellites from talking to certain other satellites. If each space program had their own constellation, they wouldn't be able to use old networks until they found them and made an adapter relay that could talk to both. That might be the best of both worlds. It would also mean that stranded kerbals wouldn't be able to call home immediately--they'd have to wait until someone discovered and connected to their old relays.

[greenTurtle1134]

35 minutes ago, fulgur said:

It is updated, actually. You're in the wrong thread, look here.

I agree that it would complicate things. It's a shame though, because NO NOT THAT ARGUMENT NOT IN THIS THREAD and therefore if I fly with autopilot it's the one I wrote myself. And I really do like having kOS do my manoeuvre nodes for me.

I'll look into it

12 minutes ago, ruiluth said:

I think that sounds fair, but also, I hate building relay networks! Also, I really liked in the first few posts of the original FSP when they launched their first relay, and to their surprise the signal starting bouncing all around LKO off of all kinds of debris. I think that was what originally clued them in to something being there in the first place. Of course, since he was using remotetech, the dishes had to be aligned and that added some challenge. Still though, I hate building relay networks and the save could quickly get very bogged down if every cycle has a whole new wave of commsats. That was one of the major problems with the original, craft overpopulation.

That does sound like an interesting aspect... hm

21 minutes ago, ruiluth said:

That said, I definitely don't think giving new players control is a good idea. My idea was more that if the crew can get in contact they'd ask for a rescue. Granted, I don't know how they wouldn't be in contact given my suggestion for commsats, but I think preventing overpopulation is more important. What's the point of playing this collab if it's chugs too hard to be fun? Therefore, there needs to be some way to clean up old craft. Kerbals wanting to return home seems like a good mechanism for that to me, but I'd be happy as long as there was some way to address that issue.

Craft that are in Kerbin's SOI will probably just burn for home under my rules. (Every new space program would have to deal with a dozen things re-entering just as it starts, though). Craft on interplanetary missions... eh. My main problem is that it doesn't really jibe with the "no communication" case we've established.

23 minutes ago, ruiluth said:

Also, have you seen CommNet Constellation? It's specifically made to prevent certain satellites from talking to certain other satellites. If each space program had their own constellation, they wouldn't be able to use old networks until they found them and made an adapter relay that could talk to both. That might be the best of both worlds. It would also mean that stranded kerbals wouldn't be able to call home immediately--they'd have to wait until someone discovered and connected to their old relays.

Oh yeah, that's a great idea. This solves all the things. The goal is to locate and power up a relay from an older network so you can talk things over with the prior Cycle's Kerbals. We'll probably go with this.

[greenTurtle1134]

Spoiler

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1987/Kerbal%20Attachment%20System%20%28KAS%29

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1909/Kerbal%20Inventory%20System%20%28KIS%29

• https://github.com/dkavolis/Ferram-Aerospace-Research/releases/tag/v0.15.11.1_Mach

• https://github.com/TriggerAu/KerbalAlarmClock/releases

• https://github.com/Kopernicus/Kopernicus/releases/

• https://github.com/Poodmund/Outer-Planets-Mod/releases/tag/2.2.5

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1746/ScrapYard

• https://spacedock.info/mod/128/DMagic%20Orbital%20Science

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1911/Surface%20Mounted%20Lights

• https://spacedock.info/mod/2086/OSE%20Workshop%20Reworked

• https://spacedock.info/mod/557/Near%20Future%20Propulsion

• https://spacedock.info/mod/558/Near%20Future%20Electrical

• https://spacedock.info/mod/559/Near%20Future%20Solar

• https://spacedock.info/mod/563/Near%20Future%20Construction

• https://spacedock.info/mod/708/Near%20Future%20Spacecraft

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1434/Near%20Future%20Launch%20Vehicles

• https://spacedock.info/mod/1682/Stockalike%20Station%20Parts%20Expansion%20Redux

• https://spacedock.info/mod/710/Kerbal%20Atomics

• https://spacedock.info/mod/537/Heat%20Control?ga=%253CGame+3102+%2527Kerbal+Space+Program%2527%253E

• https://spacedock.info/mod/709/Cryogenic%20Engines

• https://spacedock.info/mod/792/M.O.L.E.

• https://spacedock.info/mod/336/Pathfinder

• https://spacedock.info/mod/442/Bluedog%20Design%20Bureau

• https://spacedock.info/mod/2098/Restock

• https://spacedock.info/mod/2106/RestockPlus

• https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/USI-LS/releases

This is the current modpack. Does anyone feel it's a bit bloated? I tested it and it runs MUCH better with BDB stripped out, but I don't want to make that decision unanimously. It was one of two runner-ups in the mod poll, though, and the other was MK4 Spaceplane which hasn't been updated to 1.7 yet.

[Barzon]

I think we should keep BDB, as it provides a lot of different LVs in a single mod, and we dont need MOLE. BDB has parts for that now.

[fulgur]

I don't really like WBI. It's good but it just feels a little bit too complex and introduces lots and lots of extra resources. I think BDB is quite cool but I do prefer spaceplanes to rockets, although of course that is just me (and we're unlikely to get to spaceplanes anyway) so I would prefer MkIV Spaceplanes + NF Aeronautics for the 2.5m RAPIERS.

[The Minmus Derp]

I sense this is going to be awesome.

Edited December 12, 2019 by The Minmus Derp

[The Minmus Derp]

Also, what version is this in?

[LittleBitMore]

I'm game with this! Once the rules and modlist are set, I'll set up my GameData and wait for the original post. Then I'll probably go second or third (but since I have no idea how this should start, I'll leave first save to one of you).

Another note: @greenTurtle1134 , does your PFP have a part of an xkcd comic on it?

[Kerbalstar]

I'd be interested in this, @greenTurtle1134!

[The Dressian Exploder]

Has this done an oof? If it's going to dead then I'll join.

Spoiler

 

[fulgur]

It's not dead, it just takes a lot of time to write a Python program to do the auto-Forgetting which means that we must REM∃MBER, which is what @greenTurtle1134 has said he is doing.

Edited December 31, 2019 by fulgur

[greenTurtle1134]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:05 AM, The Dressian Exploder said:

Has this done an oof? If it's going to dead then I'll join.

I've gotten sidetracked by (various, unrelated) projects starting in late December, so I haven't had time to work on this until now, sorry. It's not dead.

Edited February 18, 2020 by greenTurtle1134

[Vagrant203]

I am in love with this concept. Especially since a lot of my own space program is geared towards developing self-sufficient ships that can operate outside radio contact by design, with probe support options. Eagerly awaiting news on this.

[greenTurtle1134]

So looking through the thread, the general consensus seems to be to keep Bluedog Design Bureau, drop MOLE and Pathfinder, and add MK4 Spaceplane. Looks good - after all, this game will be mostly about building rockets, not colonizing things. (I'll keep OSE Workshop so we have some off-Kerbin construction/repair capability). I don't really have a good idea of the relative computer loads of each of these mods, so I'll compile that pack now and see if it needs to be pared down more to be playable.

On 12/22/2019 at 10:47 PM, LittleBitMore said:

I'm game with this! Once the rules and modlist are set, I'll set up my GameData and wait for the original post. Then I'll probably go second or third (but since I have no idea how this should start, I'll leave first save to one of you).

On 12/29/2019 at 10:23 PM, Kerbalstar said:

I'd be interested in this, @greenTurtle1134!

On 2/18/2020 at 5:56 PM, Vagrant203 said:

I am in love with this concept. Especially since a lot of my own space program is geared towards developing self-sufficient ships that can operate outside radio contact by design, with probe support options. Eagerly awaiting news on this.

Thanks for expressing your interest! I'll update you as soon as some progress happens.

On 12/22/2019 at 10:47 PM, LittleBitMore said:

Another note: @greenTurtle1134 , does your PFP have a part of an xkcd comic on it?

My profile picture is indeed a panel from xkcd #889: Turtles

 

As to the actual "forgetting" program - do you think it would be easier to 1. Copy the VESSELS list into an entirely new save file, or 2. Reset everything but the VESSELS node? I'm leaning towards 1 because in that case I only need to worry about copying "background" info like the current time and ore distribution, while for 2 I'd need to also generate default values for contracts, World's Firsts, etc.

[LittleBitMore]

Let's go for 1. Seems generally easier and more versatile. I'm really excited for this!

[Vagrant203]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wouldn't know how to approach the problem. 1st option certainly seems simpler at a glance. I think limited testing would need to be done before YOU decide. Or whoever is managing the file.

[greenTurtle1134]

I'm going for 1. The main issue will be making sure I keep ALL the data - current time, vessels, ore distributions, and Kerbal list are the only thing I can think of right now.

I'm also not interested in storing the module structure of parts in a vessel or anything, so I think I'll make it literally just copy the VESSELS node into another file. Anyway, I don't have any of this yet. The next step is making a test save with the mods I want and seeing what the .sfs looks like.

[LittleBitMore]

On 2/21/2020 at 7:51 PM, greenTurtle1134 said:

I'm going for 1. The main issue will be making sure I keep ALL the data - current time, vessels, ore distributions, and Kerbal list are the only thing I can think of right now.

I'm also not interested in storing the module structure of parts in a vessel or anything, so I think I'll make it literally just copy the VESSELS node into another file. Anyway, I don't have any of this yet. The next step is making a test save with the mods I want and seeing what the .sfs looks like.

Good luck!

I'm new to save file editing, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but what I think you're saying is all we would need to do is go to the VESSELS section of the save file and copy the VESSELS section from a previous loop over to the new one?

[greenTurtle1134]

Okay, I have a new problem.

The Kerbals that get Forgotten are going to stay on the roster list, which is bad both for immersion (because you're supposed to have no idea what's up there!) and for gameplay (because it limits your hire options). So the options are:

• Bite the bullet and just let it happen - means new saves won't be able to hire for quite some time
• Remove hire restrictions with a mod or something - looks weird because each new save can see all the Kerbals, also removes a fairly large restriction on Career mode
• Give up and play in science mode. Same problems as the option above but even worse
• Somehow make the Kerbals not appear in the Astronaut Center but still be controllable in space - can setting them to Missing or Killed work, or can a mod be used?

So:

1. @Cydonian Monk did you find out a way to handle this, and
2. Does anyone know of a method to make Kerbals not show up in Astronaut Center

[LittleBitMore]

27 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Bite the bullet and just let it happen - means new saves won't be able to hire for quite some time

Or each new save will have a maxed out Astronaut Complex. Unless you're not talking about that kind of hiring issues.

But if we do this, and we don't upgrade the Astronaut Complex, we should somehow make the 4 starting kerbals are procedural and not Jeb, Bob, Bill and Val somehow. That way instead of 99% of all Kerbals being Jeb, we could have 0 Jebs. Maybe we could write a python script to auto-edit the save file for this.

This also adds another way to lose the game: kill all kerbals and not have enough money to hire more. This would be a fun new aspect and would cut some loops short.

27 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Remove hire restrictions with a mod or something - looks weird because each new save can see all the Kerbals, also removes a fairly large restriction on Career mode

I say nope. If we are gonna use a mod or something, then we should go all the way with this mod or something and have it fix ALL our problems.

27 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Give up and play in science mode. Same problems as the option above but even worse

I say "really nope".

27 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Somehow make the Kerbals not appear in the Astronaut Center but still be controllable in space - can setting them to Missing or Killed work, or can a mod be used?

I think Killed would make the kerbal disappear or have some ill effects. As for Missing, this might work. I just don't know how to edit save files, so i really can't test.

But you're missing an option! This option is:

• Kill all kerbals on loop.

This may cause problems with specific part mods, but after some testing is done, this could work. I don't know if it's our best option, but we can say they were forgotten long enough for life support to run out.

Speaking of mods, here's a list of mods I think would be great for this:

Spoiler

MechJeb2 (don't hate me. I'm good with this being excluded.)

TweakScale (don't hate me. I'm less good with this being excluded. How else am i going to build stages smaller than an Oscar B tank? Or larger than 5m?)

HullCamVSExtended (I CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THIS. Amazing footage and pictures, taken from realistic places. Great for photo ops.)

RLA Reborn (Has some parts I really think KSP is missing.)

Restock+ (Also has a few parts that I really think KSP is missing.)

Both DLC (not really a mod but I don't exactly know how to disable a DLC, and I'll subconsciously add MakingHistory or BreakingGround parts. Unless we're doing a version earlier than the DLC. I mean I'd really like 1.7.3 or later but you know you do you.)

Various visual mods (Not strictly required. Even less required in 1.9.x versions.)

Kerbal Alarm Clock (pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasePLEASEPLEASEPLEA--)

KIS/KAS (this would be really useful for scavenging and utilizing debris and past craft.)

Kerbal Construction Time (makes time matter early on in career. Make sure to set a default preset.)

SCANsat

Near Future Solar (Stock is missing a lot of good solar panels.)

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by LittleBitMore

[Vagrant203]

Could the Forgotten be modded to act like a rescue contract when it comes to the roster? Maybe even replace all rescue contracts with the Forgotten and tweak the reward to instead grant the appropriate amount of science data. This could also work to keep them hidden until players have reached milestones roughly equivalent to that specific Forgotten vessel.

But for the love of Kerbal don't kill them.

Also, if you include DLC content, that immediately excludes me from playing. Rude.

[LittleBitMore]

2 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

Could the Forgotten be modded to act like a rescue contract when it comes to the roster?

Amazing idea! I hadn't thought of this. This would be ideal.

2 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

Maybe even replace all rescue contracts with the Forgotten and tweak the reward to instead grant the appropriate amount of science data.

Well, the Forgotten have... well, been forgotten. Nobody remembers who they were or why they're up there. They wouldn't be up for the stock rescue missions, since nobody remembers enough about them to set up that kind of contract. In stock, they leave them up there on accident and since they remember that, they put a contract up for you.

As for science, the science should either (hopefully, ideally) be saved as is, or (probable and safer) deleted altogether.

But this implies an interesting new idea: we could work on a Forgotten contract pack that includes things such as "Investigate Forgotten Object A24" (flyby), "Rendezvous with Forgotten Object A24" (rendezvous), "Move Forgotten Object A24" (move it somewhere else), and "Recover Forgotten Object A24" (recover on Kerbin).

Or maybe I just have really high hopes.

8 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

This could also work to keep them hidden until players have reached milestones roughly equivalent to that specific Forgotten vessel.

I see your reasoning, but there should be a way to internally edit a craft to be like in a rescue mission without actually having a rescue mission.

9 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

But for the love of Kerbal don't kill them.

I hear you. Killing them would be upsetting for those of previous loops, but it has to remain an option if all else fails. I don't hope it becomes the plan, but it might be the only way depending on how things work out.

10 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

Also, if you include DLC content, that immediately excludes me from playing. Rude.

I'll figure out how to disable DLC, then.

But you're really missing out. It's well worth the money.

[Vagrant203]

58 minutes ago, LittleBitMore said:

 

But you're really missing out. It's well worth the money.

Imma be straight with you. 

I am [adjective synonymous with adult activities] POOR.

I got KSP for ten bucks on the Steam New Year's sale because I lucked out enough to look longingly at the page after trying to run my only other Steam game on my old potato butt laptop. That I got for free. Because it's old as [previous adjective].

I KNOW I'm missing out. Thank you SO MUCH for reminding me.

[Cydonian Monk]

2 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

@Cydonian Monk did you find out a way to handle this

I experimented with giving them an "unowned" status, similar to rescue contracts, but eventually decided it was too much hassle for what I was doing. And I think the astronaut management process has changed considerably since.
 

Treating them as rescues might work better now for y'all, so it's worth a shot!

[LittleBitMore]

43 minutes ago, Vagrant203 said:

I KNOW I'm missing out. Thank you SO MUCH for reminding me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

42 minutes ago, Cydonian Monk said:

I experimented with giving them an "unowned" status, similar to rescue contracts, but eventually decided it was too much hassle for what I was doing. And I think the astronaut management process has changed considerably since.

Interesting. So you theorize the way you did it is no longer doable in this version?

I hope we discover a more doable way to do it.