ManEatingApe

Community Caveman Jool 5 mission

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4 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

We've made it to Kerbin, but better this time! The PR has been updated, and the updated album is in the same place it was last time.

Excellent! That is one nice looking intercept :cool:
I've merged your changes and tagged them as "v27". Everybody please pull the latest changes.

KILO is far enough from Kerbin that we can tweak the intercept relatively cheaply, for example:

  • Burning anti-normal to a flat inclination
  • Burning anti-radial to lower the PE to around 80km
  • We then have enough fuel to brake into LKO without needing aero-braking (although we could chance it to save some fuel)

As a suggestion, I would love to finish the mission with style and parachute Jeb onto the roof of the VAB!
(We just have to re-enter near the KSC then use Jeb's personal parachute to glide onto the roof)

@Jacke Would you like to bring us home?

Edited by ManEatingApe

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I've only recently discovered this thread and I'd just like to say I am amazed at your collective skill at this game and your determination to get Jeb back home. While I still have to fully catch up, I am eagerly awaiting every new update. Congrats on getting Jeb back to Kerbin's SOI!

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Thanks to @IncongruousGoat for a good capture back at Kerbin.

10 hours ago, ManEatingApe said:

Excellent! That is one nice looking intercept :cool:
I've merged your changes and tagged them as "v27". Everybody please pull the latest changes.

KILO is far enough from Kerbin that we can tweak the intercept relatively cheaply, for example:

  • Burning anti-normal to a flat inclination
  • Burning anti-radial to lower the PE to around 80km
  • We then have enough fuel to brake into LKO without needing aero-braking (although we could chance it to save some fuel)

As a suggestion, I would love to finish the mission with style and parachute Jeb onto the roof of the VAB!
(We just have to re-enter near the KSC then use Jeb's personal parachute to glide onto the roof)

@Jacke Would you like to bring us home?

Thanks, I will.

 

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Hadn't done anything with Caveman since September.  I've moved my screenshots to two galleries for my TANGO launch and rendezvous and my KILOLIMA launch, rendezvous, and docking.  Will later note them and put them up on Imgur.

I've downloaded v27.  I see "KILO", the remainder of the mission spacecraft, with Jeb 12km off.  I assume they're both on a similar hyperbolic trajectory around Kerbin.

So with the ~3500m/s of delta-V (assuming that's displaying correctly), I need to:

1.  Capture Jeb with KILO and get Jeb hanging off that ladder inside KILO.

2.  Change the inclination to 0.  (Need to do that as far away as possible to minimize delta-V.)

3.  At periapsis, burn to capture with a new periapsis below 100km.

4.  Circularize under 100km.

5.  At an appropriate point, deorbit aiming to get Jeb over the VAB.

6.  Switch to Jeb and exit KILO.

7.  Parachute Jeb onto the VAB.

Possible....  Pushing my KSP skills, though, especially the last few.

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14 hours ago, Jacke said:

So with the ~3500m/s of delta-V (assuming that's displaying correctly), I need to:

It's not, unfortunately. As @ManEatingApe pointed out above, the staging sequence is a bit screwed up, and besides that calculation isn't accounting for the weight of Jeb.

14 hours ago, Jacke said:

1.  Capture Jeb with KILO and get Jeb hanging off that ladder inside KILO.

Having Jeb grab the ladder tends to result in uncontrolled shaking and rotation. I.e., it's a non-useful Kraken drive. What we've been doing so far is just sticking Jeb in the fairing and using the tank end opposite the fairing as a pusher plate. This also means we have to be careful to conserve fuel, because we're going to need a hefty de-orbit burn to allow Jeb to re-enter in his EVA suit alone.

14 hours ago, Jacke said:

2.  Change the inclination to 0.  (Need to do that as far away as possible to minimize delta-V.)

3.  At periapsis, burn to capture with a new periapsis below 100km.

Probably better to lower the Pe using a radial burn while you're still far out. Or rather, move the Pe to the other side of Kerbin using a radial burn - the trajectory Jeb & KILO are on right now is going around the wrong side of Kerbin, IIRC.

Aerobraking down may also be necessary, depending on what the delta-V budget looks like.

Edited by IncongruousGoat

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7 hours ago, Jacke said:

I've moved my screenshots to two galleries for my TANGO launch and rendezvous and my KILOLIMA launch, rendezvous, and docking.  Will later note them and put them up on Imgur.

Great, much appreciated...now for the fun part!
 

@IncongruousGoat has hit the nail on the head, so combining their advice with your plan, I'd say the steps are:

  1. Fix the staging on KILO. Right now the dV indicator is not showing the correct figure. We have ~1850 m/s remaining taking Jeb's mass into account.
    Enough to give us plenty of flexibility, but not so much that we can be careless.
  2. Bring KILO close to Jeb (or vice-versa). As we're so far away from Kerbin the rendezvous technique is simpler.
    • Point KILO directly at Jeb using the target marker (relative velocity is already zero)
    • Burn 10 m/s prograde towards Jeb (this is plenty, as we need to conserve dV)
    • Timewarp for (10,000m) / (10 m/s) = 1000 seconds = 16 minutes
    • Once closer than 200m from Jeb bring relative velocity to 0
  3. Use Jeb's RCS pack to get inside KILO's fairing. This will be a little tricky due to the narrow gap, but be very conservative with RCS fuel. If we run out then Jeb is toast!
    • I would recommend quick-saving here and trying a few times. It took me a little practice to get the hang of it
    • One tip is to orient KILO prograde/retrograde. This is the best orientation to fit Jeb through the narrow gap.
    • Once inside the fairing don't forget to disable RCS!
  4. As IncongruousGoat already mentioned, we can't grab the ladder, so instead we must push Jeb carefully with KILO. There are some tricks to this:
    • Be very gentle on the throttle - slowly increment the thrust from zero
    • As Jeb's weight is not completely centered this will throw off the craft's balance. The probe core's reaction wheels are weak meaning that SAS is not able to hold an off-balance craft steady at full throttle
    • Slowly increase the throttle until the craft is just stable (e.g SAS is just able to keep the craft from rotating)
    • I found that between 1/3 to 1/2 of full throttle was the best I could do with the Spark
    • It helps to cut engine thrust when adjusting KILOs orientation e.g to change the heading to stay on prograde, cut thrust to 0, change heading, then increase slowly again.
  5. Per IncongruousGoat's advice, Oberth effect means that a braking burn at 80km is much more efficient than doing the same burn at 1,600km. So spending a little fuel to make our intercept closer to Kerbin will result in big savings when braking at Kerbin PE.
    • Our velocity relative to Kerbin is so high that while on the edge of Kerbin's SOI burning prograde/retrograde will not affect the orbit much
    • Instead we can use normal/anti-normal and radial/anti-radial burns to tweak the orbit.
    • I would start with anti-normal first and gently burn until our orbit is a flat as can be (and passes through Kerbin's equator).
    • Orienting the camera side on the Kerbin will help judge this.
    • While making this anti-normal burn our PE will increase in a sunwards direction. No need to panic, as we will fix this next.
    • Orient KILO anti-radial then gently burn until PE is on the night side of Kerbin at about 80km altitude. We want to enter into a prograde orbit of Kerbin, not a retrograde one.
    • This will affect the inclination a little so you may need to repeat the normal/radial burn sequence one or two time more using smaller and smaller burns.
    • Show visually in this spoiler:
      Spoiler

      Burning anti-normal to fix KILO's intercept inclination. Original orbit is shown passing over the north pole.

      WaceY0i.png

      Burning anti-radial to bring PE to Kerbin's night side. Original orbit is still visible passing over north pole.

      Gz5po9Y.png

       

  6. Once you are finished then orient KILO normal and let Jeb settle for a few second before warping close to PE.
    I found that this reduces Jeb's drift relative to the craft to very low amount.
Edited by ManEatingApe

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And I'm flying the finale right now.

I've rendezvous KILO with Jeb and Jeb has flown inside the craft.

baHlqK5.png

I had Jeb grab onto the ladder and the craft rotated until Jeb let go.  So as others have found, Jeb has to ride loose.  And to keep him in the craft, I'll have to fly with the Ant engine only.  If I use the Spark engine, I'm afraid Jeb will fall out the side.  Appears all fuel is available to the Ant.

Next up, adjust the periapsis pass to around 45-55km equatorial for an aerobrake pass.  Aiming to get into an equatorial prograde orbit around 80km circular.

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Important safety note:  When loading a quicksave or switching from the Tracking Station to KILO, the startup of physics tends to send Jeb flying out of KILO.

Upon loading, immediately tap SHIFT *once* to turn on the Ant to push Jeb back in.  Then tap X to stop the Ant.

The 48-7S is disabled.  As well, crossfeed on both decouplers has been enabled.  The tank directly connected to the Ant has about 20% of its propellants burned off (using the Ant before turning on crossfeed).   Can't transfer fuel to fix that, but the other tanks have higher priority and they will empty first.

Anyhoo, the only information on orbit inclination is by eye in Map mode.  From that, KILO is approaching from below Kerbin's equator a bit (inclination of Jool's orbit likely cause).

Here I've made the periapsis pass as equatorial as possible and at about 51km.

N4eoIys.png

JZH06ZG.png

The following to burn at periapsis is more tricky.  Getting a Jeb reentry so he can parachute onto the VAB even moreso.

I'll give a try at getting a good Kerbin orbit.  However, my skills at getting such a reentry (without the assistance of a mod like Trajectories) are nil, as are my skills at parachute gliding Kerbals.

So, I'll see if I can get a good orbit.  But I will turn the reentry over to someone with better skills, as I think we should try to have Jeb land on the VAB.

Edited by Jacke

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Note I've updated the post just above to include more details on what I've done to KILO.

As well, loading "quicksave_11" (going for periapsis with KILO pointing the Ant forward) and a pulse of the Ant to settle Jeb knocks the periapsis from 55km to 45km.

I've tried time warping and I've discovered the tricky bit about it: Jeb drifts on whatever relative velocity he has with respect to KILO.  So, I did a quick estimate of how long until the periapsis pass.

KILO is about as far out as Minmus right now.  An elliptical orbit from that as apoapsis to periapsis would take about 53 hours.  Being on a hyperbolic orbit, will take less time, but not that less.

So, without timewarp, it'll be 2+ days to get down to periapsis.  So, I'll try to timewarp to lower without letting Jeb get too far away.  Problem is burning more fuel to rendezvous and using up more EVA fuel (currently 1.63 of 5.00) to do that.

What does everyone else think?  I'll try some feathering of timewarp (only 5x), with disengaging it to catch Jeb before he moves out.  Problem is it's hard to get him reseating in the forward compartment when he hangs up on the craft parts.

UPDATE

Currently on 10x time warp with Jeb staying put.  This should get me down to periapsis in under 1 hour in my estimate.

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And I let Jeb drift too far.  I had a quicksave from about 40,000km above Kerbin, but on load Jeb was stuck with his body outside and his head inside.  Craft was flung around and after a while, Jeb was ejected.

So it's back to 48,500km and give it another try, just remembering I can only make a quicksave when Jeb is really inside the craft.  And I have to exit from time warp before he drifts too far out.

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Feathering timewarp, I got down to just about 32,000km.

LN8Wwej.png

But this is exhausting.  The periapsis gets kicked around sometimes on going out of timewarp, but especially when loading a quicksave.  Currently under 44km, but this is easy and low in delta-V to adjust.

So, I'm going to leave KSP running, go to bed, see where it is in the morning (unlikely to have even crossed Mun's orbit), then do an upload and a pull request.

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Welp, I left KSP running, but didn't go to bed.

After a few hours, checked on Jeb and KILO and they were 20,500km above Kerbin.  From here I feathered the timewarp again.  Was easier for the first while, as Jeb was very still with respect to KILO.

Then the periapsis pass.  Oh, the lessons I learned.  Only took me 5 tries (beside losing Jeb on a quicksave load and having to reload; that was fixed by using quicksave_18, which was very forgiving at that).

  1. First attempt, deep aerobraking, down to around 43km.  Jeb and parts of KILO started exploding around 48km.  Hmmm, that Ant ain't slowing things down very fast.
  2. Second attempt, tried to raise the periapsis too close to Kerbin.  Without any signs of heat on the sideways craft, Jeb exploded about 65km due to the hyperbolic velocity.
  3. Third attempt, raised the periapsis between 990km and 600km to 60km.  Started burning the Ant retrograde at about 100km.  Jeb still exploded about 65km.
  4. Fourth attempt, tried using the 48-7S to raise the periapsis.  I think someone turned down its max thrust, as it was only getting 3.8kN instead of its usually 20kN, which wasn't much more than the Ant's 2kN.  And it was hard to keep Jeb balanced to stay in the craft.
  5. Fifth attempt, back to the Ant.  Raised the periapsis to 80km starting at 990km, but I knew I could put the Ant to full throttle and keep control.  Started burning the Ant retrograde at 200km.

Passed through periapsis about 77km.  Just under 110km after periapsis, exhausted the tanks attached to the 48-7S and decoupled.  As expected, the dumped stage collided with the remainder of KILO but didn't knock it too far off axis.  Kept buring retrograde.

Stopped to reassess with an apoapsis just beyond Mun's orbit at 10.4Mm.  Burned retrograde angled out to raise the periapsis, which was now under 64km.

And I have Jeb and the remainder of KILO in a 75.6km x 7800km orbit, with 1506km/s delta-V showing on the gauge, the Oscar-B tank being about half-full.   Orbit is inclined what looks to be about 5 degrees.

fG6qPWn.png

I9gtee7.png

OEXlUMn.png

 

I figure I could land Jeb now somewhere on Kerbin, but I'd prefer to turn it over to a more experienced Caveman to give this Grand Adventure a proper conclusion.

I'm off to bed now.  I'll do the upload of my 20 quicksaves (with some notes on what's what in them) and put in a pull request.  Want to give whoever takes over a chance to back up if something should have been done differently.

Edited by Jacke

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15 minutes ago, Jacke said:

And I have Jeb and the remainder of KILO in a 75.6km x 7800km orbit, with 1506km/s delta-V showing on the gauge, the Oscar-B tank being about half-full.   Orbit is inclined what looks to be about 5 degrees.

<snip>

I figure I could land Jeb now somewhere on Kerbin, but I'd prefer to turn it over to a more experienced Caveman to give this Grand Adventure a proper conclusion.

I'm off to bed now.  I'll do the upload of my 20 quicksaves (with some notes on what's what in them) and put in a pull request.  Want to give whoever takes over a chance to back up if something should have been done differently.

Nice work! Looking forward to the PR :)

Don't worry about including the backup saves in the PR, that's what the Git repo does, just update the "latest.sfs" save.
We can always revert to a previous point, however I don't think that's necessary.

Now that you've done the hard work, I'm happy to take it from here :sticktongue:

Edited by ManEatingApe

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I decided to push on and do the upload and PR.

24 minutes ago, ManEatingApe said:

Nice work! Looking forward to the PR :)

Don't worry about including the backup saves in the PR, that's what the Git repo does, just update the "latest.sfs" save.
We can always revert to a previous point, however I don't think that's necessary.

I already created the PR adding in my 20 quicksaves (40 files).

https://github.com/maneatingape/community-caveman-jool-5/pull/27

Here's the notes on the quicksaves, included in the PR.

Spoiler

20 quicksaves taking Jeb and KILO on approach to Kerbin into an elliptical orbit.

quicksave_01
to
quicksave_09
Rendezvous of KILO with Jeb
Burn to change the hyperbolic orbit around Kerbin

quicksave_10		tends to be stable on load
Jeb within KILO
51,530km alt
periapsis 60km

quicksave_11
48,880km alt
periapsis 53km

quicksave_12		tends to be stable on load
32,180km alt
periapsis 54km

quicksave_13
to
quicksave_17
Rough stable saves along the timewarp

quicksave_18		tends to be stable on load
1,242km alt
periapsis 43km
The quicksave where I raised the periapsis

quicksave_19
888km alt
periapsis 80km
Aligned to burn prograde

quicksave_20
744km alt heading to apoapsis
75.0km x 7785km orbit

 

 

24 minutes ago, ManEatingApe said:

Now that you've done the hard work, I'm happy to take it from here :sticktongue:

It was an education.  But bringing Jeb in and landing him via parachute on the VAB is going to be a tad challenging too, I'd say. :)

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4 hours ago, Jacke said:

I decided to push on and do the upload and PR.

KILO and Jeb's orbit looks good.
Ascending node is at AP so that will make it cheap to fix inclination.
Around 800 m/s dV left which is plenty.

I have:

  • Cherry picked your "quicksave_20"
  • Fixed KILO staging
  • Deleted debris
  • Committed save file as "latest.sfs" and tagged as "v28"

Looking forward to messing around with re-entry :)

Edited by ManEatingApe

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Looking forward to the KSC landing !

And much kudos to Jacke for bringing our little dude back home with all the ladder shenanigans involved :cool:

 

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Community Caveman successfully completed. We have managed to push a Kerbal all the way from Jool to Kerbin, a feat that surely no-one has been insane enough to attempt before :)

Repository is updated with 2 tags:

  • "v30" Jeb on the roof of the VAB
  • "v29" KILO in LKO (in case anyone else would like to try re-entry for fun)


Well done to all our contributors for making this happen! Please pickup your badge link from the OP.

@Jacke @Pds314 @IncongruousGoat @dvader @Muetdhiver @Rakaydos

Edited by ManEatingApe

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3 hours ago, ManEatingApe said:

Community Caveman successfully completed. We have managed to push a Kerbal all the way from Jool to Kerbin, a feat that surely no-one has been insane enough to attempt before :)

Repository is updated with 2 tags:

  • "v30" Jeb on the roof of the VAB
  • "v29" KILO in LKO (in case anyone else would like to try re-entry for fun)


Well done to all our contributors for making this happen! Please pickup your badge link from the OP.

@Jacke @Pds314 @IncongruousGoat @dvader @Muetdhiver @Rakaydos

Wow. That's the most conservative KILO reentry I have seen. My own tests involved zero fuel, 4000+ m/s reentries at high inclinations, and no use of parachute, just deploying the fairing and slamming into the ground at 47 m/s or whatnot.

Edited by Pds314

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11 hours ago, Muetdhiver said:

And much kudos to Jacke for bringing our little dude back home with all the ladder shenanigans involved :cool:

It was mostly lack-of-ladder shenanigans.  As @ManEatingApe showed in his video, when Jeb grabs onto the ladder, phantom forces spin KILO.  Jeb often lets go himself.  My part of the mission was easier than @ManEatingApe's, as I had that next-to-last stage to keep Jeb contained both during the ladder testing and maneuvers, and when I staged it, KILO was under thrust that kept Jeb inside.

I wonder what it would take to not have those phantom forces.  I have asked for more information about ladders and timewarping in the main Caveman topic here.

Spoiler

I didn't realise that physics timewarp would keep Jeb contained until I saw @ManEatingApe do it in his video.  Getting 4x would help during planetary maneuvers, but you'd want more during interplanetary.  Even if it was allowed, I can't remember if timewarp mods offer higher physics warp.  And warping without putting things on rails is likely fraught with its own perils.

 

6 hours ago, ManEatingApe said:

Community Caveman successfully completed. We have managed to push a Kerbal all the way from Jool to Kerbin, a feat that surely no-one has been insane enough to attempt before :)

Repository is updated with 2 tags:

  • "v30" Jeb on the roof of the VAB
  • "v29" KILO in LKO (in case anyone else would like to try re-entry for fun)


Well done to all our contributors for making this happen! Please pickup your badge link from the OP.

@Jacke @Pds314 @IncongruousGoat @dvader @Muetdhiver @Rakaydos

Kudos, @ManEatingApe, for bring Jeb home in style!  BTW, did the remainder of KILO survive splashdown?

And I've had a few issues with trying out a Table in my Signature.  Turns out I can't figure out how to adjust the Table after making it, nor how to delete the Table or the whole Signature.  Any ideas?  I've asked about that here.  Reported my post to the moderators and one went behind the scenes and deleted my sig.

Spoiler

EDIT: And now have a groovy new signature.  Key with Tables is to make sure you have text above and below them so you can hilight the lot to delete them to fix.  I also rescaled the Community Caveman badge to 20% of its original 480x425 (96x85) so it and a single line of text can fit into the signature space.  Put that image link in a 1x1 Table 110-pixel table 0-width border with Align Left and then hilighted the image to put in a link to this topic. :)

 

2 hours ago, Pds314 said:

Wow. That's the most conservative KILO reentry I have seen. My own tests involved zero fuel, 4000+ m/s reentries at high inclinations, and no use of parachute, just deploying the fairing and slamming into the ground at 47 m/s or whatnot.

Wow, a lithobraking re-entry! :)  During my tests of aerobraking, ol' Jeb cooked off many a time at those hyperbolic re-entry speeds.  Don't know how you didn't get 'im fried. :)

Edited by Jacke

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Congratulations and many thanks to everyone involved; it wouldn't have been possible without you.

If you all don't mind, I'm going to go post this in the Jool 5 thread. I feel it deserves at least a mention over there.

Edited by IncongruousGoat

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2 hours ago, Jacke said:

It was mostly lack-of-ladder shenanigans.  As @ManEatingApe showed in his video, when Jeb grabs onto the ladder, phantom forces spin KILO.  Jeb often lets go himself.  My part of the mission was easier than @ManEatingApe's, as I had that next-to-last stage to keep Jeb contained both during the ladder testing and maneuvers, and when I staged it, KILO was under thrust that kept Jeb inside.

I wonder what it would take to not have those phantom forces.  I have asked for more information about ladders and timewarping in the main Caveman topic here.

  Reveal hidden contents

I didn't realise that physics timewarp would keep Jeb contained until I saw @ManEatingApe do it in his video.  Getting 4x would help during planetary maneuvers, but you'd want more during interplanetary.  Even if it was allowed, I can't remember if timewarp mods offer higher physics warp.  And warping without putting things on rails is likely fraught with its own perils.

 

Kudos, @ManEatingApe, for bring Jeb home in style!  BTW, did the remainder of KILO survive splashdown?

And I've had a few issues with trying out a Table in my Signature.  Turns out I can't figure out how to adjust the Table after making it, nor how to delete the Table or the whole Signature.  Any ideas?  I've asked about that here.  Reported my post to the moderators and one went behind the scenes and deleted my sig.

  Reveal hidden contents

EDIT: And now have a groovy new signature.  Key with Tables is to make sure you have text above and below them so you can hilight the lot to delete them to fix.  I also rescaled the Community Caveman badge to 20% of its original 480x425 (96x85) so it and a single line of text can fit into the signature space.  Put that image link in a 1x1 Table 110-pixel table 0-width border with Align Left and then hilighted the image to put in a link to this topic. :)

 

Wow, a lithobraking re-entry! :)  During my tests of aerobraking, ol' Jeb cooked off many a time at those hyperbolic re-entry speeds.  Don't know how you didn't get 'im fried. :)

Grab the ladder and don't force Jeb against a wall. That's how it can survive a 15 degree Jool reentry as well. Although you're still dead from gravity.

Edited by Pds314

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1 hour ago, Pds314 said:

Grab the ladder and don't force Jeb against a wall. That's how it can survive a 15 degree Jool reentry as well. Although you're still dead from gravity.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to do this.  Reloaded a quicksave with Jeb inside KILO and had him grab the ladder.  Couldn't move him up or down at all.  Somehow it seemed to reduce or increase the phantom forces, but couldn't eliminate them.

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I have a favor to ask. Can all contributors put photos of their craft design/testing/assembly/missions into one or more Imgur albums and post on this thread with the link to the album and a short description. If you have videos too then that's great - please include a URL to the video (not embedded). I will then update the OP with everyone's photo & video links so that future visitors to this thread can marvel at your accomplishments in one easy to find location. :)

For example my post would look like:

Community Caveman Jool 5 https://imgur.com/a/gcxb6rz
Community Caveman Mothership assembly https://vimeo.com/360111385
Community Caveman Finale https://vimeo.com/380077525

In the meantime, to keep you amused, here are some fun statistics:

[GAME]
Unique craft designs: 11
Launches: 24
Total cost: 264,523
Net profit: 3,636,056
Mission duration: 24 years, 317 days

[REAL LIFE]
Contributors: 7
Mission related posts: 367
Mission related DMs: 68
Duration: 4 months, 8 days

[GITHUB]
Commits: 65
Tags: 30
Pull requests: 27

Edited by ManEatingApe

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