Jump to content

KSP Unofficial Official Computer Building/Buying Megathread. (All Questions Acceptable.)


Recommended Posts

On 3/19/2021 at 10:39 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

Okay, headache time. My son has been saving up his money and buying a desktop PC, piece by piece. That last piece arrived today (the water cooling assembly) and we put it together. It still needs a video card, but running on the onchip GPU will do for now to make sure everything is working. The moment of truth arrived: We powered it on and things started whirring, the screen  came alive, and we were able to get into BIOS. Yay! It's aliiiiive! The POST LEDs show all systems go!

But something is abby-normal. When I try to install Windoze from a thumb drive, it reads the drive for a few seconds, the windows logo comes up,  and then it does one of three things: freezes up, throws the blue screen of death (thread exception not handled) or the screen glitches like a graphics problem.

So Mikes Computer's figured it out, nailing it down to the to RAM channel B being dead. I could have figured that out myself and saved $35 if I had thought to try a single stick of RAM in each RAM slot. But hey, it works with the full 16GB of RAM, just in single-channel mode. Not sure how much of a performance hit that really makes, especially since it's running on integrated graphics for now.

Now just waiting for the RMA to get authorized...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I use a Saitek X52 Pro flight joystick and have had issues with axis recognition, not limited to KSP. Is anyone else having this issue?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

so i got a big fat stimulus check and i have no idea what to do with it and it is a terrible time to buy computer stuff. replacing the 8086k is still difficult. even going with the ryzen 7 5800x seems like more of a sidegrade. i get a couple more cores at a cost of a couple hundred mhz on the base clock. high end video card is out of the question due to stock issues and my 2070 super is still pretty solid for gaming (recent interest in some light crypto mining would be the main driver for that if it was possible).  only real rule is the machine has to be improved. 

one of the driving forces in this upgrade is reducing my vr latency. doing the core components i can get this mobo and the 5800x, which will give me the better usb and 2.5 gig ethernet port wifi 6, and usb 3.2 in a type c plug, all of which will help that problem. i can hardwire to the router (recently upgraded) and go wireless, jack in for desk bound sessions. i can kind of do both of these already, but some games have nauseating latency. full atx users would just use add in cards for this, but im a crazy mini-its sff builder. 

i did want a storage upgrade and will swing for a 2tb m.2 as part of the upgrade no matter what. the performance of the drives is the only real question. the mobo above also gives me pcie 4 which means i can go nuts on the high performance storage. but such drives usually are about $80-100 more than tlc or pcie3 drives. alternatively i could save money with slower drives or pci3 drives, this might mean more capacity also.  lack of storage on this machine has been the bane of my existence for the last 6 months, 1.5tb is not enough anymore. 

if i get the afore mentioned cpu, storage and mobo, i spent about $1k, for a partial core components upgrade. i still have to use the cryorig c7 cu which i believe is compatible with am4 and probably wont get much turbo out of it, it might even perform worse out the gate. it also means re-using my existing ram, which is slow standard speed non overclockable ddr4 at 2666. i did find a 32 gig kit at 3600 for another $200. but that seems a bit steep. less memory, less fancy memory, or less fancy storage might get it under the 1k mark and these can be future upgrades. 

alternatively i can try to upgrade the stuff i got. best way would be to address the thermodynamics limits of the system. seeing as its running on a 115tdp cooler i cant get anywhere near the theoretical maximum turbo of 5ghz on this 8086k. it tops out at around 4.2ghz right now.  that usually requires drastic measures. this plan would involve parting with the elite 110 for something bigger or more optimized for an aio or big honkin air cooler. something like the cm nr200 would give me slightly more volume, and it supports dual 120mm aios or a bigger air cooler. also provides room for future video card upgrades. to facilitate that i would probibly upgrade to a 750w sfx supply (current supply is 600w and rock solid, but i dont think that would support 3xxx series nvidia cards). storage upgrade would be cheaper here as i would just buy gen3 drives and possibly at a higher capacity. this would only come in about $600, leaving funds for a monitor upgrade and perhaps some new input devices. 

big question is what would you do? starting with these specs:

8086k with cryorig c7 cu
2070 super (mini)
16gb 2666 ddr4
asus b360i mobo

would you prefer core components upgrade (full or partial) for $900-1200 or the everything else upgrade path for $600-800? note that saving the money is not an option (entropy calleth). 

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/1/2021 at 8:31 AM, Opteryx said:

I use a Saitek X52 Pro flight joystick and have had issues with axis recognition, not limited to KSP. Is anyone else having this issue?

some joysticks dont work well with all games. especially with many games using xinput or rawinput instead of the long deprecated direct input that most hotas controllers rely on. there is usually middleware you can use to fix that, though it always feels clunky and likely adds some latency. i blame ms for trying to kill the hotas (which makes no sense because flightsim).

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nuke said:

one of the driving forces in this upgrade is reducing my vr latency. doing the core components i can get this mobo and the 5800x, which will give me the better usb and 2.5 gig ethernet port wifi 6, and usb 3.2 in a type c plug, all of which will help that problem.

I dont realy understand your Problem with the PC. You complain about VR-Latency, but why should faster Ethernet help with that? 1gbit Ethernet is allready fast enough for everything with gaming, similary as far as i know the video signal to VR setups comes from the GPU, so faster USB on your mainboard isnt solving any bandwidth-problem since there is none. The i7 8086k is quite fast, while the 5800X is even better i doubt you will notice much of an improvement in almost all games, as they are usualy limited by GPU-Speed. But even if you are CPU-limited the 5800X is just about 17% faster in those games, not worth such an expense.

If i were you i would just buy a bigger SSD, with PCIe 3.0 as 4.0 only yields theoretical improvements, none noticeable in usage. Upgrading the RAM would also be moot then since the B360 chipset doesnt support higher clocks. Better save the remaining money for an Upgrade at the end of the year. Alder Lake by Intel and maybe also AMDs next CPUs will offer DDR5, PCIe5, way more CPU Performance and thus are more worthy of doing a whole platform upgrade.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you'll see a good improvement moving from the 8086K to a Ryzen 5800X.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8086K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5800X/3279vs3869

Frequency is really only one of a number of factors, don't worry too much about one vs another. Look towards real-world independent benchmarks instead.

Agree that PCIe gen 4 won't really give a real-world performance improvement over gen 3 so don't let it skew your motherboard choice etc. Definitely stick with the 2070 for now, if you want to keep the old PC working (not sure if that CPU has integrated graphics?) then a 1030 will suffice to give reasonable day-to-day use.

Yes DDR5 is coming but I think it will be 12-18 months before its a worthwhile upgrade.

Full rebuild and "declutter" also improves performance, so you'll see a big uplift in the old vs new for that reason too - but then you could rebuild your existing PC for a lift in performance.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, paul_c said:

Look towards real-world independent benchmarks instead.

You say that and then post a theoretical benchmark. I got my 17% from here:

http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/launch-analyse-amd-ryzen-5000/launch-analyse-amd-ryzen-5000-seite-2

Its in german, but the tabels are easy to read with that. Its averaged over lots of tests by hardware-magazines/websites.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Elthy said:

You say that and then post a theoretical benchmark. I got my 17% from here:

http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/launch-analyse-amd-ryzen-5000/launch-analyse-amd-ryzen-5000-seite-2

Its in german, but the tabels are easy to read with that. Its averaged over lots of tests by hardware-magazines/websites.

I know, I couldn't find a test which puts 8086K vs 5800X, what with the difference in age of about 2 1/2 years.

I don't see how you came to 17% - its not the German, but there's about 3478 figures on that page you linked. Its main thrust is comparing a bunch of Ryzen processors to 10th gen (not 8th gen) Intel CPUs?

What is a "theoretical benchmark"?  A benchmark is the numbers from some or other real-world test. Whether that test is relevant to your use case, is what's important. For example, if you found a test of eg CS:GO at 1080p with a 2070 video card, and wanted to know how the two perform at CS:GO at 1080p with a 2070 video card, great! If its a different game, or another resolution, or using a different video card (note that CPU tests are typically done with a high end card to not encounter a GPU-limited situation, rather it tests the CPU at more intensive loads), or productivity tasks instead of games, or some other use, then it will always need interpreting to some degree or another.

This is why I took my own linked benchmark with a pinch of salt and restricted my description to "a good improvement". Not "a 100% improvement" or "a 17% improvement" - I accept that the CPU benchmark alone doesn't directly correlate to real-world (including playing the latest games) frame rates achievable, for many reasons including if it becomes GPU-bound (which is not a big issue with a 2070 if you are sensible with resolution and settings).

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, paul_c said:

I don't see how you came to 17% - its not the German, but there's about 3478 figures on that page you linked. Its main thrust is comparing a bunch of Ryzen processors to 10th gen (not 8th gen) Intel CPUs?

It compares the 5800X against an i5 10600k, which is almost identical to an i7 8086k. On average over 51 tests by 7 websites the i5 has 82,2% (of an 5900X), the 5800X 96,5%. 96,5/82,2 = 1,174 -> 17% faster in games. Those are all proper CPU benchmarks (in modern games) which try to ensure there is no GPU limit, otherwise 3DCenter wouldnt list them.

Even with overclocked RAM there wont be more to gain than 25% over his current setup, which is not much for such a high price. In more theoretical benchmarks as the one from your link there might be a bigger improvement, but that will show in computing-workloads. 3DCenter measured about 50% improvement over the i5, which may justify an upgrade if computing workloads are common for a user.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we're more or less in agreement - a CPU benchmark score (of say 28637 vs 14728) will result in a real world performance increase of less than that - around 17-25%. I am hesitant to put a definite figure on it. I think you'd notice a 20% difference. You'd notice the difference if the computer was just rebuilt anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Elthy said:

I dont realy understand your Problem with the PC. You complain about VR-Latency, but why should faster Ethernet help with that? 1gbit Ethernet is allready fast enough for everything with gaming, similary as far as i know the video signal to VR setups comes from the GPU, so faster USB on your mainboard isnt solving any bandwidth-problem since there is none. The i7 8086k is quite fast, while the 5800X is even better i doubt you will notice much of an improvement in almost all games, as they are usualy limited by GPU-Speed. But even if you are CPU-limited the 5800X is just about 17% faster in those games, not worth such an expense.

If i were you i would just buy a bigger SSD, with PCIe 3.0 as 4.0 only yields theoretical improvements, none noticeable in usage. Upgrading the RAM would also be moot then since the B360 chipset doesnt support higher clocks. Better save the remaining money for an Upgrade at the end of the year. Alder Lake by Intel and maybe also AMDs next CPUs will offer DDR5, PCIe5, way more CPU Performance and thus are more worthy of doing a whole platform upgrade.

because the router has a 2.5 gig port. that means i can jack my pc directly into that high throughput channel. the router is wifi 6 and can connect to the quest 2 wirelessly through a very fast channel. id need to re-arrange some things for that arrangement. right now im not really using the wifi6 capabilities and its on a different floor (wifi6 likes line of sight). so i would have to move it down here and run some cat6. this arrangement would give me the best wireless experience possible. 

as for the usb3 side, i have one usb-c port and its stuck at usb 3.1. to keep the quest fully powered id need usb 3.2. i do have a link cable and the latency on it is fine, but im running through the battery in a few hours. its a minor nitpick since thats more than enough for your typical vr session. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, paul_c said:

I think you'll see a good improvement moving from the 8086K to a Ryzen 5800X.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8086K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5800X/3279vs3869

Frequency is really only one of a number of factors, don't worry too much about one vs another. Look towards real-world independent benchmarks instead.

Agree that PCIe gen 4 won't really give a real-world performance improvement over gen 3 so don't let it skew your motherboard choice etc. Definitely stick with the 2070 for now, if you want to keep the old PC working (not sure if that CPU has integrated graphics?) then a 1030 will suffice to give reasonable day-to-day use.

Yes DDR5 is coming but I think it will be 12-18 months before its a worthwhile upgrade.

Full rebuild and "declutter" also improves performance, so you'll see a big uplift in the old vs new for that reason too - but then you could rebuild your existing PC for a lift in performance.....

ive been declutterng for awhile. when i built it there were like 4 cables in it. 3 were the usual power cables for mobo, cpu and gpu. the fourth was the fan header. i bundled it and sleeved it with the front panel header so i only count it as one cable even though it splits off 4 ways when it gets to the mobo. when i upgraded the video card (which took drastic measures to install) i added a pair of 92mm fans to the side of the case (a dremel was involved) to help dump some of the heat from the cpu cooler. the front fan was also flipped because i felt a fully negative pressure config would let the gpu, cpu and psu breathe better. cool air is drawn over them on the way to the fans so they always get external air. i spliced those fans together into a single cable (pwm signal split to both, and only one tach signal back, everything else in parallel).

i was investigating a way to get a larger than 120mm radiator in the front. 120 is the max the case officially supports (i went with the 140mm fan option). mods to the front panel would place the fan(s) inside it with the rad inside the case.  i was looking for something like either a deep 140mm rad or something exotic like a160mm with quad 80s (if such a thing exists). i dont think any aios do this and it would need to be a custom loop.  id probably use a cpu block with integrated pump, and the only place for a res is above the video card.  after some measurements, i no longer think its possible and i dont think a 120mm aio would do much better than the cryorig. 

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding AIO, a handy rule of thumb is that 120mm doesn't really do much benefit, you'll see the benefits (more stable temperature, less severe peaks, because the water has a much bigger heat capacity to absorb the heat/energy when the CPU makes spikes on demand/power) with 240mm and upwards.

And if you do use one, install the tubes the right way round!

a 2.5GB (or faster) ethernet is only really a benefit when you have 2 or more devices connected using it, and you need to make fast comms over the network to that device, eg if you had a file server or something. As a home user I don't have much call for it. Also, a wired network connection (of any speed) has a small latency advantage over wireless (of any speed).

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/11/2021 at 2:46 AM, paul_c said:

Regarding AIO, a handy rule of thumb is that 120mm doesn't really do much benefit, you'll see the benefits (more stable temperature, less severe peaks, because the water has a much bigger heat capacity to absorb the heat/energy when the CPU makes spikes on demand/power) with 240mm and upwards.

And if you do use one, install the tubes the right way round!

a 2.5GB (or faster) ethernet is only really a benefit when you have 2 or more devices connected using it, and you need to make fast comms over the network to that device, eg if you had a file server or something. As a home user I don't have much call for it. Also, a wired network connection (of any speed) has a small latency advantage over wireless (of any speed).

i really dont trust water cooling that much myself. i did look and found a 140mm, 45mm deep rad that would just barely fit between the inside of the elite 110 and the mobo (and were talking an 80% chance of proper fitment). id like to keep the negative pressure config and such a radiator would need the fan placed on the outside with some mods to the faceplate. im not sure a fan can draw air through a radiator with the same efficiency as pushing it through. putting the rad on the outside would require a rad <34 mm without more aggressive mods. a 140x140x45 single rad has slightly more volume as a 120x240x30mm unit (its actually the fin area that counts but that should scale with volume assuming the same fin density). as much as id like it they dont seem to make a 160mm unit. either way this would still require getting a water block, pump and res, and space for those. i think i saw some combined block/pump units, and im wondering if i even need a res.

a further examination of the power supply situation seems to indicate i have at least an extra 3cm of clearance between the intake of the cryorig and the bottom of the sfx supply. the case is made for atx supplies and im using an adapter plate. this case has a bump out power supply mounting solution i could replace that with a machined aluminum plate (more likely drill and file because im cheap and like grinding metal into dust), or i can 3d print something and run a ground strip, or even use a peice of fr4 pcb. this would allow me to offset the power supply a bit and give me another cm of clearance. so i keep a couple cm above the fan free for feed air, then i can get a cooler that is 67mm high (cryorig is 47mm iirc). so a better air cooler is an option.  or just switch cases and use a proper tower cooler. 

the router situation is interesting. as its an asus rt-ax86u. this thing has dual usb3.2 ports. so i kind of use it as a nas for bulk storage. thats one use case for the 2.5 gig lan i didnt mention. keeping spinning disks in my sff case wont work (especially since the mounts for those are something i dremeled away in the name of superior airflow), there just isnt space. also the ssd upgrade would effectively double my capacity anyway with the router drives mostly backups and media.

i still dont know what im going to do with this thing. but i need to make a decision soon because its slowly getting spent on pizza and beer runs. 

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

think i decided to go with plan f. this plan is deciding that  my case is too fat and needs to be slimmed down to an 12l ncase m1. plan also involves a better cooler and new fans. still getting the ssd as planned. some of the parts are going to become my next ryzen pc, so i made sure i got a cooler that supports both lga1151 and am4. 

i think im going to get the 32 gig memory kit that is going to go into my ryzen build when i get around to doing it. i plan on doing the mobo/cpu later on unless gpus suddenly become available again. i kind of want to use the memory in the mean time, but it is rated at 3600 and my mobo can only handle 2666. what do you figure my chances are of being able to run that? probibly wont try to overclock it, i just want it to run stable is all, likely an improvement over whats in here right now. 

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nuke said:

probibly wont try to overclock it

I don't think you even can overclock RAM on a B360 board. It'll definitely run. The question is if you can get it up to 2666 if it's not specified for that speed. Otherwise you might end up at 2400 or 2133 as an automatic fallback. You should probably look up what options your board is actually offering.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Harry Rhodan said:

I don't think you even can overclock RAM on a B360 board. It'll definitely run. The question is if you can get it up to 2666 if it's not specified for that speed. Otherwise you might end up at 2400 or 2133 as an automatic fallback. You should probably look up what options your board is actually offering.

i was thumbing through the manual and it said that higher memory will be limited to 2666, but thats kind of vague. it only does 2133/2400 and 2666 only with an 8th gen processor and doesnt have any oc speeds listed at all. but that doesnt say anything about being able to run at 2666. i mostly want to buy it for a future core components upgrade and use it in the mean time, but not at the expense of performance. the current memory is at the limit. not sure if running twice as much slower memory is a good idea. 

anyway i actually ordered the case, as its a very low volume production unit and hard to get, bloody expensive too. was about to buy a bunch of other components but the memory thing was bugging me.  

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

ordered the case, fans and new cooler and ssd. the cooler is a noctua nh-c14s, as much as i like the cryorig, this thing boasts a 140mm fan to its 92mm and will cover the entire mobo. i know it will fit the case because they had one in one of the build photos for the ncase m1.  in retrospect i could have fit the cooler in my existing chassis, but its time to slim down. also since the case can support a 3 slot card, i can use the 3rd slot to address my usb port shortage. i just have to steal the usb dongle from moms machine, shes not using it. new case design also makes it easier to get access to the rear ssd a sabrent rocket q 2gb. might even be enough space to put a heat sink on it.

i got a bunch of new noctua fans, 4 nf-a12x15 slim 120mm and a nf-a9x14 slim 92mm, which should fill out all the slots in the new case nicely, assuming there are no fitment issues. opted for slim fans because of how close quarters everything is. probibly gang them up in banks of 2 with splitters like i did with the dual 92s i added to my current case. mobo only has 2 fan connectors though. so im either going to run the 92 at full tilt, or im going to gang up the banks and let the 92 have its own port. not sure about running 4 fans off one connector though. case fans really dont use that much power, but if the trace on the mobo is too thin for the current it can vaporize and cause who knows what kind of mess. i could omit the 92 (and may have to if the new cpu cooler gets in the way). or i could just get one of those fan hubs, but that seems like a waste of space. its unlikely i will find room for all of them, but i got other machines with old dying fans that they can go into.

positive pressure seems to be the way to go with this one. the elite 110 got a mild cooling buff from switching it to a negative pressure config, which drew fresh air into the video card and psu, also theoretically the cpu cooler, though there is a lot of stuff in the way. the ncase m1 is designed like a normal tower, all be it greatly miniaturized, and i dont think a negative pressure would work. the lower fan mounts would be working against the gpu, and the cpu cooler can be run in either a push or pull configuration. the fan mounts are bottom and side and pushing through the upper grate working with the rising heat, should run cool as a cucumber.  im probibly going to run some benchmarks to see how much gain i can get just from addressing the thermodynamic changes.

if i dont get the ram i should probibly get a beefier sfx supply, corsair has a 750w sfx now i think. i dont need it per se but when i upgrade my graphics to a 30xx card or better its going to need the juice. this might be a buck it down the road type thing too like the ram. but with over $500 bucks left i could still order the cpu, buy the mobo with bitcoin, use my current ram and upgrade it at a later date. 

Edited by Nuke
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...