KSP2 Hype Train Thread

[tstein]

58 minutes ago, Master39 said:

 

Not to interrupt the "KSP-2 flaws hunt train thread" with some hype and speculation, but is that spaceplane just painted black or is that ablative coating?

Among the thousands of people asking where's the anti-aliasing, why the misalignment, and where's the dust storms on Duna (let's not forget the most important the green-ish skybox), did someone ask that question?

That can be just color adjustment from where the image was taken. Green is complementary of Red so if they made any photoshoping and adjustment of the color they might have shifted the balance towards green.

[Luriss]

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

Obviously, at no one point did I state it as a fact.

"If I had to wager a guess"

"Might be"

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

It's not a bug if it is being done on purpose. You should take some time to learn a thing or two about how programming works rather than calling everything under the sun a "bug".

[Hutsul228]

47 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I don't think these planes are meant to be usable in any way. Look at the place where docking ports are. The whole structural parts they're attached to are larger than cargo bays when closed. This is just for show.

Sorry,  but where is cargo bay ?

[The Aziz]

Right there. Open Mk2 cargo bay. With 6-point connector inside.

[Stephensan]

"It gets worse every second"

[GoldForest]

You know, with how things are looking, I think this is what happened:

One of the devs built (under a rush possibly) the entire thing in the VAB, hence the shotty craftsmanship. (Node in the cargo bay, which the node is way too big for)

They then cheated it into orbit of Duna, or they cheated it to Ike or Kerbin orbit and used the engines to get a flyby of Duna.

Time warped.

The Time Warp Kraken happened as it does making everything jitter around. 

They didn't have time to go back to do it properly.

We ended up with this. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by GoldForest

[The Aziz]

That would mean the Kraken hasn't been slayed yet.

[obney kerman]

Ignoring the Great Spaceplane Alignment Debate for the moment, it looks like this assembly is one 3.75m(?) engine with 5 nozzles. There'd be no reason to place so many struts if they were 5 separate engines, and the way they're attached makes it look like one coherent part. Looking forward to using it in a month or so!

[MechBFP]

1 hour ago, Luriss said:

 

IF.

Keyword there.

[Snafu225]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Guess there's gonna be more work for people like myself sending feedback to the devs, while other players can just relax and find excuses for most bugs.

Thanks sheriff! 

 

 

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Didn't the devs themselves say we were getting that level of precision?

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

We're expecting sub-milimeter precision.

2 hours ago, MechBFP said:

You are expecting sub-millimeter precision.

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

Yes I believe so. I’ll believe it when I see it though because even back then I simply dismissed that statement as hype/PR/lofty goals type speak given how completely unnecessary/expensive it would be to actually attempt to meet that goal for a video game.

Yes they did say that, though I thought they were talking about the trajectories for interstellar travel, which require sub-millimeter precision and in that regard it makes a whole lot of sense and is kind of needed. I guess a millimeter left or right is quite the distance once you traveled several lightyears. 
For models and stuff, I think it's overkill and not really needed. At least I don't care that landing legs sink in a millimeter or two. 

For the missallignment on the crafts though, I'd like it to be snug and precise. No need for sub-millimeter precision but it should look straight and fitting, I do agree. No idea what could have been the issue/cause there.

[Vl3d]

12 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

The Time Warp Kraken happened as it does making everything jitter around. 

There should be no more time warp kraken. The whole spatial coordinate system is new. Weren't you saying that KSP2 is a complete code rewrite? And I've been getting a lot of flack for asking if we should expect KSP1 bugs..

[MechBFP]

Just now, Snafu225 said:

Yes they did say that, though I thought they were talking about the trajectories for interstellar travel, which require sub-millimeter precision and in that regard it makes a whole lot of sense and is kind of needed. I guess a millimeter left or right is quite the distance once you traveled several lightyears. 

Ya that could be what was being referred to. Wouldn't surprise me if people take certain things out of context and just apply it to everything because they also misremember the original context.

[GoldForest]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

We're expecting sub-milimeter precision. 

That only applies to TRAVELING. Not to parts or anything else. Sub-millimeter part placement is overkill and totally not needed, considering the offset tool will not be able to do sub-millimeter in the first place. Let alone the human eye can't really register sub-millimeter without special equipment. 

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

There should be no more time warp kraken. The whole spatial coordinate system is new. Weren't you saying that KSP2 is a complete code rewrite? And I've been getting a lot of flack for asking if we should expect KSP1 bugs..

It is a complete rewrite. And can it really be considered a KSP 1 bug if the timewarp system is completely brand new and totally rewritten? No. It can't imo. This is a KSP 2 timewarp bug. 

[Vl3d]

Just now, MechBFP said:

Ya that could be what was being referred to. Wouldn't surprise me if people take certain things out of context and just apply it to everything because they also misremember the original context.

Yeah, exactly what you're doing now. Sub-milimeter precision means spatial coordinates for the whole game, including trajectories and the rigid body physics. Don't interpret things in a way just to come up with arguments for your assumptions.

Just now, GoldForest said:

That only applies to TRAVELING. Not to parts or anything else. Sub-millimeter part placement is overkill and totally not needed, considering the offset tool will not be able to do sub-millimeter in the first place. Let alone the human eye can't really register sub-millimeter without special equipment. 

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on the forum.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on the forum

And yet his statement accurately reflects what the Developer was talking about. 

Submilimeter precision was a comment related to the game's orbital mechanics system - not part placement 

[GoldForest]

12 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Yeah, exactly what you're doing now. Sub-milimeter precision means spatial coordinates for the whole game, including trajectories and the rigid body physics. Don't interpret things in a way just to come up with arguments for your assumptions.

Again, sub-millimeter does not pertain to the ridged body physics. See my previous comment. 

12 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on the forum.

You're entitled to your opinion, but what I said was true. The sub-millimeter system is for space travel, not rigid body physics or part placement. 

[Snafu225]

11 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Sub-milimeter precision means spatial coordinates for the whole game, including trajectories and the rigid body physics. Don't interpret things in a way just to come up with arguments for your assumptions.

There's different tools for a reason. Abstracted household situation: you will want to use a small precise hammer for hanging up a picture on a nail, but you probably don't want to use it to tear down a wall.  Could you? Yes. Should you? No. 
 

12 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on the forum.

Sounds a bit dramatic.

I'm going to grab some lunch (and popcorn) and afterwards I'll try to find where they talked about that precision.

[Vl3d]

"To quote author Douglas Adams, space is “vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big”, and representing the relative locations of ships, planets, and distant star systems requires a bit of cleverness. Even on a modern CPU that can handle 64-bit math with ease, if we state that our lowest spacial resolution is 1mm (which, honestly, is not nearly small enough for what we do), the maximum signed distance we can represent is 9.2 Trillion kilometers, which is just shy of a Light Year. We could use double-precision floating-point values, but then we start to lose fidelity as the numbers grow larger, which leads to instability in physics and jumpy positioning as we move away from the origin. With interstellar travel being so important for Kerbal 2, we’ve solved this by implementing a Spacial Scene Graph at Interstellar Scales, which allows us to arbitrarily “break off” sections of space and simulate them with a high degree of precision while still fully understanding their physical and positional relationship to the stars and planets around them, and all while not sacrificing compute performance that might slow down frame rates or lead to spaceships that are more wobbly than our Kerbal Engineers intended!"

"An update on Kerbal Space Program 2 and how we're enabling players to travel from planet A orbiting star B to planet C orbiting star D, continuously, without any loading screens, pauses, faked out transitions, "warp drives", or other trickery. We're simulating a multi-light-year spanning 3D volume at a sub-millimeter level of resolution, and enabling players to travel to any point in that space if they can build a ship capable of making the journey. Unprecedented in gaming."

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/paul-furio_kerbal-space-program-2-episode-5-interstellar-activity-6920089169021014016-J_5I

Literally everything uses sub-milimeter precision. That's how the game is built, that is the scale used: from < 1 mm to > light years.

15 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

Sounds a bit dramatic.

 

31 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Let alone the human eye can't really register sub-millimeter without special equipment. 

When someone says the human eye can't register dimensions smaller than a millimeter, I don't think it's dramatic to consider the argument absurd.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Vl3d

[Pthigrivi]

32 minutes ago, obney kerman said:

Ignoring the Great Spaceplane Alignment Debate for the moment, it looks like this assembly is one 3.75m(?) engine with 5 nozzles. There'd be no reason to place so many struts if they were 5 separate engines, and the way they're attached makes it look like one coherent part. Looking forward to using it in a month or so!

I think the adapter above is 3.75m and the engine shown is 2.5m? It is a curious thing though given Nertea's engine logic breakdown. Any chance its a funky NERVA variant?

[Missingno200]

Things are heating up in the "little green men go to space in lego rockets" fandom...

[GoldForest]

15 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

I'm going to grab some lunch (and popcorn) and afterwards I'll try to find where they talked about that precision.

 

31 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Yeah, exactly what you're doing now. Sub-milimeter precision means spatial coordinates for the whole game, including trajectories and the rigid body physics. Don't interpret things in a way just to come up with arguments for your assumptions.

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on the forum.

0:28 to 0:38 

Paul Furio:

Quote

This is the only game where you travel continuously from multi-lightyear stars all the way down to the surface of an orbital body with sub-millimeter precision. 

@Vl3d  No mention of rigid-body physics. There is no sub-millimeter rigid body physics, because it would be ridiculous to implement such a thing.  Not to mention possible kraken territory having the parts THAT close.

 

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

"To quote author Douglas Adams, space is “vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big”, and representing the relative locations of ships, planets, and distant star systems requires a bit of cleverness. Even on a modern CPU that can handle 64-bit math with ease, if we state that our lowest spacial resolution is 1mm (which, honestly, is not nearly small enough for what we do), the maximum signed distance we can represent is 9.2 Trillion kilometers, which is just shy of a Light Year. We could use double-precision floating-point values, but then we start to lose fidelity as the numbers grow larger, which leads to instability in physics and jumpy positioning as we move away from the origin. With interstellar travel being so important for Kerbal 2, we’ve solved this by implementing a Spacial Scene Graph at Interstellar Scales, which allows us to arbitrarily “break off” sections of space and simulate them with a high degree of precision while still fully understanding their physical and positional relationship to the stars and planets around them, and all while not sacrificing compute performance that might slow down frame rates or lead to spaceships that are more wobbly than our Kerbal Engineers intended!"

"An update on Kerbal Space Program 2 and how we're enabling players to travel from planet A orbiting star B to planet C orbiting star D, continuously, without any loading screens, pauses, faked out transitions, "warp drives", or other trickery. We're simulating a multi-light-year spanning 3D volume at a sub-millimeter level of resolution, and enabling players to travel to any point in that space if they can build a ship capable of making the journey. Unprecedented in gaming."

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/paul-furio_kerbal-space-program-2-episode-5-interstellar-activity-6920089169021014016-J_5I

Literally everything uses sub-milimeter precision. That's how the game is built, those are the scale of the numbers used: from < 1 mm to > light years.

Everything you just quoted, is just about space travel. Nowhere in any of the quotes or the thread you link, do they mention rigid body physics. 

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

When someone says the human eye can't register dimensions smaller than a millimeter, I don't think it's dramatic to consider the argument absurd.

You do realize I said, "Without special equipment." Because it's true. A millimeter is about the thickness of your fingernail, give or take. Now imagine your fingernail cut into 10 pieces so they're sub-millimeter. That's how small a sub-millimeter is. That tiny amount of movement is not perceivable by most people without a microscope or at least magnification glasses. So putting sub-millimeter movement on parts is ridiculous and no human, imo, can do that in game, even if they use the offset tool and a DPI mouse set so low they're cursor takes years to move. 

My argument is not absurd. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by GoldForest

[Vl3d]

Just now, GoldForest said:

A millimeter is about the thickness of your fingernail, give or take. Now imagine your fingernail cut into 10 pieces so they're sub-millimeter. That's how small a sub-millimeter is. That tiny amount of movement is not perceivable by most people without a microscope or at least magnification glasses. So putting sub-millimeter movement on parts is ridiculous and no human, imo, can do that in game, even if they use the offset tool and a DPI mouse set so low they're cursor takes years to move. 

My argument is not absurd. 

Can you see the lines that mark millimeters on a ruler?

[obney kerman]

7 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I think the adapter above is 3.75m and the engine shown is 2.5m? It is a curious thing though given Nertea's engine logic breakdown. Any chance its a funky NERVA variant?

That'd make sense, yeah. I'm going on the assumption that it's the SWERV or some other nuclear engine, given the hydrogen tanks on the mothership and the shape of the engines. No idea what the big spherical tank is supposed to be, though.

[Snafu225]

9 minutes ago, Missingno200 said:

Things are heating up in the "little green men go to space in lego rockets" fandom...

Want some popcorn too? 

 

12 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I think the adapter above is 3.75m and the engine shown is 2.5m? It is a curious thing though given Nertea's engine logic breakdown. Any chance its a funky NERVA variant?

Oh you're saying the part(s) behind the tank are actually two? Now, that you'd said it, I think that's what we see here. 

Concerning the engine logic breakdown: Don't we have similar bell shaped dark greyish chambers in front of the nozzles in the near future atomic propulsion mod? So NERVA might come close.

Edit: mixed some terminology

 

7 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

No mention of rigid-body physics. There is no sub-millimeter rigid body physics, because it would be ridiculous to implement such a thing.  Not to mention possible kraken territory having the parts THAT close.

Was thinking the same, but since english isn't my native language I read it three times making sure I didn't misread/miss anything, that's when you swooped in and posted already.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Snafu225
seen above

[GoldForest]

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

Can you see the lines that mark millimeters on a ruler?

What does that have to do with the argument we're having?

If you're going to say "If you can see the marks on a ruler, you can see sub-millimeter" let me save you the time and say, no you can't. Sub-millimeter is not perceivable to most people. Our eyes are designed to see patterns and movement. Sub-millimeter is too small for us. You move a soda can sub-millimeter lengths away from where it started while having someone watch, I guarentee you they'll ask the scientists if they moved it after a couple of minutes. 

Sub-millimeter rigid body physics does not exist. 

Just now, Snafu225 said:

Want some popcorn too? 

 

Oh you're saying the part(s) behind the tank are actually two? Now, that you'd said it, I think that's what we see here. 

Concerning the engine logic breakdown: Don't we have similar bell shaped dark greyish nozzles in the near future atomic propulsion mod? So NERVA might come close.

 

Was thinking the same, but since english isn't my native language I read it three times making sure I didn't misread/miss anything, that's when you swooped in and posted already.

I used Ctrl+F (Find) To search the page.