KSP2 Hype Train Thread

[The Aziz]

Sure, but marketing campaign costs money. And budget for it was probably set a long time ago. Spreading it over 2 years would cause a financial disaster for the publisher - especially since KSP is not exactly the most known or anticipated game of T2. Also, look around. If you keep posting about one thing all the time, people get bored and move on. Same would happen on overextended campaign.

Quality over quantity. You don't need a looong campaign to be successful, you need a good one. One or two booths at gaming events (if such things even exist anymore), some ads in various media, youtube ads (the announcement trailer was indeed an ad), then a bunch of trailers neatly spreaded out over few months, and final hype up weeks before release and a lot of people will know about it. 

Part of those people will then learn about the whole story with delays, studio changes etc, claim that it's a failure and will boycott it, but that's beyond anyone's control.

[t_v]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Why do you read the news? Why do you follow Starship development?

I have another question: why do people blame the fans for wanting to know more about a game they care about?

Whoa whoa whoa. This is a big false comparison. Look at the post, @Pthigrivi is saying that for other areas of life, people are interested in the actual thing. For starship, people are interested in seeing starship. For the news, people are interested in seeing the news. Here and in other games, people are interested in seeing games and also become negative if it isn’t promoted “correctly”. Anyone who complains that starship isn’t getting enough coverage and Elon musk should spend more money to have more promotion and more coverage isn’t seen as promoting starship’s success - because the PR has basically nothing to do with how good of a rocket it is. 
 

Getting closer to KSP, you might be interested in a news organization. Like a video game, the success of this news organization depends on publicity. But, it doesn’t impact the quality of the organization. If you care about the news, then you don’t necessarily care about how many other people are watching it. You don’t demand that the news organization advertise itself to others better. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, let’s say your reason for wanting more promotion is less selfish: you want lots of people watching the news so that you can watch the news with them and talk about the news together. That still doesn’t mean that you should complain about the lack of advertisements the company is buying; if they want to stay a small, local news channel, that is on them, and they will broaden their reach when they feel like it. 
 

In short, these two examples are false comparisons, and I hope you recognize the difference between being excited for a game and hoping it will be a good game, and wanting the game to advertise itself more so that it will have more players. The developers are putting in the same work whether they announce it or not, and we will be getting the same game at release no matter the marketing strategy, and the developers have the final say on when they start their real marketing campaign again. 

[Vl3d]

Am I the only one that missed this?

So Nate started he doesn't need to promote KSP 2. Grrr.. :))

And what's with the weird Amongus comparison? Could there be similarities in the multiplayer aspects?

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

3 hours ago, t_v said:

the difference between being excited for a game and hoping it will be a good game, and wanting the game to advertise itself more so that it will have more players

So for me personally the marketing campaign is useful only in the amount of new information it gives me about the game. That's why I'm not satisfied with just knowing "it's coming". I want to know more about it. I can only hold this perspective.

The sneaky interview in the Matt Lowne episode is great PR. But it still tells me nothing about the game. I'm at square 2019.

I guess we really have to wait to play the game in order to decide if it's better than amogusz.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Vl3d

[Pthigrivi]

6 hours ago, Xelo said:

That's true but a point to consider is that a film's development mostly stops at the theater release date. Speculative but, perhaps for games a better marketing campaign could provide a strong signal of future support/updates with more players buying the game?
I feel people also tend to internally correlate the intensity of the PR and marketing with the expected release date i.e."more PR-> closer to release, less PR-> doubt its going to happen".  

4 hours ago, pss88 said:

I want them to sell KSP-2 to as many players as possible. That way the game will be more popular, more money will go to its development - so, more updates, DLCs, sequels, etc.

I think these are good arguments. I was also thinking that the interactive nature of games might make players feel like input and involvement is part of the gig, as opposed to more passive spectator activities. 

[Vl3d]

It's Fr... 2 months since the last video featuring the game.

[whatsEJstandfor]

My calendar isn't working; does anyone happen to know what day of the week it is?

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

The sneaky interview in the Matt Lowne episode is great PR. But it still tells me nothing about the game. I'm at square 2019.

That's ignoring several videos and countless posts telling you everything you need to know about KSP 2.

17 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It's Fr... 2 months since the last video featuring the game.

Please cease your caviling by virtue of the aforementioned behaviour not being of productive use within the contemporaneous discussion 

4 hours ago, t_v said:

Getting closer to KSP, you might be interested in a news organization. Like a video game, the success of this news organization depends on publicity. But, it doesn’t impact the quality of the organization. If you care about the news, then you don’t necessarily care about how many other people are watching it. You don’t demand that the news organization advertise itself to others better. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, let’s say your reason for wanting more promotion is less selfish: you want lots of people watching the news so that you can watch the news with them and talk about the news together. That still doesn’t mean that you should complain about the lack of advertisements the company is buying; if they want to stay a small, local news channel, that is on them, and they will broaden their reach when they feel like it. 

To add, Take Two and Intercept know that if they say just one too many words, a not too small and very loud minority of the forum will erupt at them. Plus, development isn't instant - the team has already talked about planetary architecture, recently shown 15 minutes of footage pertaining to interstellar vessels, propulsion and tutorials, and made too many posts here to remember, and it likely won't be until something substantial is completed and in a presentable state before we hear that much again. Again, it's worth noting that 2 months isn't long in A. the grand scheme of development and B. in the eyes of someone whose recent life has not been built around a possibly unhealthy obsession over KSP 2 content.

The length of Aziz' post here is already enough evidence that "I'm at square 2019" is a disgusting exaggeration; the team might as well cease news till release campaigns begin and this would be enough information to put me on.

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Please cease your caviling by virtue of the aforementioned behaviour not being of productive use within the contemporaneous discussion 

Love it!

[SciMan]

Has it really already been 2 whole months since the last promotional video about KSP 2?
I'm intentionally not counting the announcement of the projected release date, which I continue to believe is "not a delay, but a clarification".
(allow me to elaborate why, in a spoiler so you don't have to read it if you don't want to or already know what I'm talking about):
 

Spoiler

Previous to that announcement, the best estimate we had for the release date of KSP 2 was "FY2022" which was gathered from the Take Two Interactive earnings report.
Now the current announcement states "Early 2023". But there's an interesting thing to know. Calendar years aren't financial years. They each start on different dates.
How does that make a difference? I take "Early 2023" to mean "Q1 CY2023". OK, but what financial year is that in, since I just said they don't start on the same dates?
Well, FY2022 lasts until I think April of 2023! That's right, Q1 CY2023 and Q4 FY2022 overlap almost to-the-day. So, all the recent announcement did was clarify that the financial report was STILL CORRECT, just that they expect to release closer to the END of FY2022.

In any case, to be honest I hadn't even noticed that so much time had passed. As the saying goes, "a watched kettle never boils" (factually false, because physics don't work like that but it sure feels like it's true).
To more concretely link that saying to an actual statement about my feelings about KSP 2, for me KSP 2 is the "kettle", and I'm not watching it every waking moment of the day because I have plenty of other games I like to play and other content I like to watch. I do stay up to date, but I limit my interaction by only visiting the forum at most once a day to see what's new. And ever since the recent announcement I've noticed that there's a lot less activity on the KSP 2 discussion subforum, not that it's a bad thing just that we seem to have covered all the discussion we can given the limited amount of data we have to discuss.

So if you're tying yourself in knots because KSP 2 won't be released tomorrow, or because it's been 2 months since the last proper video update about the development process of KSP 2, I have some advice. Go untie yourself, and then go pick up another hobby or videogame or series to watch. If that's not enough to keep you busy, pick up more stuff.
I know you won't forget about KSP 2, I haven't either.
But right now for me personally I default to "I don't expect any new news for a while now", so when there IS some new official news, I'm pleasantly surprised, rather than demanding them to let me see every new line of code that's written and complaining on the forums when they don't give it to me, and when a new piece of info does come out only being "not angry" rather than "happy".

Being angry IS a choice you can make. I'm lazy, and being angry or hateful takes a lot of energy, so usually I choose to remain calm and just ride out the bad situations, ESPECIALLY the ones I know for a fact that I can't change anything about.
It might take a lot of training to do, but it's worth it.
That way, when you DO get angry, you can focus every ounce of your being into figuring out how to make a change happen to remove or otherwise negate the source of your anger (maybe sign up for a job at Intercept?), instead of ineffectually complaining on some forum that the actual developers (not the CM) might or might not actually see (and to be honest I'd warn them to stay away if I was the CM).

[Bej Kerman]

4 hours ago, SciMan said:

Has it really already been 2 whole months since the last promotional video about KSP 2?
I'm intentionally not counting the announcement of the projected release date, which I continue to believe is "not a delay, but a clarification".
(allow me to elaborate why, in a spoiler so you don't have to read it if you don't want to or already know what I'm talking about):
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Previous to that announcement, the best estimate we had for the release date of KSP 2 was "FY2022" which was gathered from the Take Two Interactive earnings report.
Now the current announcement states "Early 2023". But there's an interesting thing to know. Calendar years aren't financial years. They each start on different dates.
How does that make a difference? I take "Early 2023" to mean "Q1 CY2023". OK, but what financial year is that in, since I just said they don't start on the same dates?
Well, FY2022 lasts until I think April of 2023! That's right, Q1 CY2023 and Q4 FY2022 overlap almost to-the-day. So, all the recent announcement did was clarify that the financial report was STILL CORRECT, just that they expect to release closer to the END of FY2022.

In any case, to be honest I hadn't even noticed that so much time had passed. As the saying goes, "a watched kettle never boils" (factually false, because physics don't work like that but it sure feels like it's true).
To more concretely link that saying to an actual statement about my feelings about KSP 2, for me KSP 2 is the "kettle", and I'm not watching it every waking moment of the day because I have plenty of other games I like to play and other content I like to watch. I do stay up to date, but I limit my interaction by only visiting the forum at most once a day to see what's new. And ever since the recent announcement I've noticed that there's a lot less activity on the KSP 2 discussion subforum, not that it's a bad thing just that we seem to have covered all the discussion we can given the limited amount of data we have to discuss.

So if you're tying yourself in knots because KSP 2 won't be released tomorrow, or because it's been 2 months since the last proper video update about the development process of KSP 2, I have some advice. Go untie yourself, and then go pick up another hobby or videogame or series to watch. If that's not enough to keep you busy, pick up more stuff.
I know you won't forget about KSP 2, I haven't either.
But right now for me personally I default to "I don't expect any new news for a while now", so when there IS some new official news, I'm pleasantly surprised, rather than demanding them to let me see every new line of code that's written and complaining on the forums when they don't give it to me, and when a new piece of info does come out only being "not angry" rather than "happy".

Being angry IS a choice you can make. I'm lazy, and being angry or hateful takes a lot of energy, so usually I choose to remain calm and just ride out the bad situations, ESPECIALLY the ones I know for a fact that I can't change anything about.
It might take a lot of training to do, but it's worth it.
That way, when you DO get angry, you can focus every ounce of your being into figuring out how to make a change happen to remove or otherwise negate the source of your anger (maybe sign up for a job at Intercept?), instead of ineffectually complaining on some forum that the actual developers (not the CM) might or might not actually see (and to be honest I'd warn them to stay away if I was the CM).

I couldn't have put it better myself. I completely relate in getting sick of posts that solely exist to rile people up over the fact that the KSP 2 information drops aren't coming out every day - so much so that I'd be willing to petition for a rule that prevents people from filling the forum with angry complaints about how long (implying 2 months is long) it's been since the last KSP 2 info drop.

[Vanamonde]

Some remarks removed. Stick to the subject, please. 

[SciMan]

[snip]

As far as "news about KSP 2 from the developers" goes, like I said in my previous post, I'm pretty much in the "We'll get what we get when we get it, and not a bit extra or a bit before" camp, because I mean what are we going to do storm Intercept Games office and demand answers? We'd get intercepted by the security staff, and that's the best outcome. So we're effectively powerless to change it.

And over the years, there's one thing I've mastered about my life that has served me EXTREMELY well.
Some might say it's a martial art of the mind.
Going with that theme, I call it "The art of not giving a crap".

It's pretty simple. If you realize that you're worrying a lot about something, you can take a step back and analyze your options.
If you find that none of your options have enough leverage to make a difference in the current situation, there's a way to eliminate a lot of stress from your life that you might be overlooking, and it's at the core of "The art of not giving a crap".
That option is extremely simple in concept, but it does take a long time to master: You simply need to stop worrying about things you can't change, and things that don't affect you.
Is it selfish? Sure, maybe it is at times. But I can't help others if I can't help myself first.
For me to help others, I have to be of sound mind and body first, and if I'm a nervous wreck because I'm worrying about stuff I cant' change then I'm of no use to anyone.
Besides, 99% of the stuff on the news (and even this KSP 2 discussion sub-forum) these days falls in one of two categories:
First there's "Stuff that affects you but you can't change",
and secondly there's "Stuff that doesn't affect you in the first place".
Now if you think of yourself as an activist, or there's someone other than yourself that you're taking care of, I guess sometimes you would need to worry about some of the things that fall in that 2nd category, if they affect people you care about.
But that first category? You can just delete that whole category from your brain and be a lot happier for it.
Heck most of politics can be lumped into that first category too, because what ACTUAL difference is a single vote gonna make 99% of the time? Not a bit. Not saying you shouldn't go out and vote when it's your time to do so, but don't get so wrapped up in it that you start acting hateful towards the "other side" whatever side of any particular issue you may be on.
At the end of the day, we're all humans, (or at least I think so? , I can't say I'm correct with 100% certainty but it's the most likely case for sure by a long shot).

Edited June 5, 2022 by Vanamonde

[Compsagnathus]

I hate it - but apparently I was right.  I guess being a software developer myself for 30 years, my instinct were dead on.  I said this pre-Covid..

 

 

Compsagnathus

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Posted October 10, 2019

Don't flame me or anything, but having spent a few person-years in hours playing KSP - I have concerns that the stated features in KSP 2 might be too far reaching.  I have seen the videos and interviews and am very excited, but my excitement is tempered with real fear (ala No Man's Sky v1).  To name a few points

• The shared videos of "Not Actual Gameplay" look incredible.  I would suspect it would take a lot of effort to beautify all of those assets and add effects such as "unique" explosions based on the parts involved.  Lets face it - KSP's stock graphics have always just blown - If it weren't for mod collections such as KSPRC, the game is pretty unappealing graphically.
• The new development team is tackling multiplayer and claim to have solved one of the biggest challenges - the physics behind it.
• Inter-stellar travel to new systems sounds awesome - but the development team needs to properly manage time warping features to make this work well - which I suspect is another serious challenge they have been wrestling with.
• Base building anywhere on bodies with solid surfaces, and then being able to launch from them - this is huge - and again something I suspect the development team has had to do a lot of work on.
• Making a game that is easily approachable for new gamers AND veterans to feel challenged.  I can't help but think that things might be too limited or dumbed down.
• The development team has said in interviews that they started off with the KSP code base and essentially tore everything out and rebuilt it.  This is a massive task.
• The new code base is allegedly designed from the bottom with modders in mind - this is also another massive task, but they say they have it.

I will say I would be very very happy to be wrong!  If they can accomplish all of these things I would be stoked.  I don't mean to be a debbie downer or anything.  Am I being overly pragmatic about this?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Compsagnathus

[SciMan]

Nobody saw Covid lasing until present day when you made that post. And Covid alone probably tacked on an extra year or more to the projected release date, because most of the world was in lockdown for at least a year before we collectively said "we can't do this forever, guess we'll just have to let the virus run its course" (not a decision I'm a fan of, but I wasn't in a place to make that choice for anyone but myself).

That aside, I find a further flaw with your argument: You're arguing from a position of "nothing new will ever be invented because it's too hard".
That didn't work for people who said humans would never invent flying machines (wright brothers proved them wrong).
Or for people who said we'd never break the sound barrier. (Chuck Yeager and the Bell X-1)
Or when they said we'd never have human beings able to live in space. (Mercury/Gemini programs)
Or when they doubted we'd ever be able to set foot on the Moon. (Apollo program).
Or when they said computers would never be usable for most things. (Development of the Apollo program, integrated circuits allowing the first "normal-sized" desktop general-purpose computers)
Or when they said we'd never be able to rapidly and affordably reuse the first stage of a rocket that can reach Earth orbit. (Falcon 9, I'm sure you're well aware that it caused a large revolution in the space launch industry).

I could keep going, but the general idea is that any time someone says "that's impossible" or "that's too hard", some crafty group of humans seems to make it their mission to make the "impossible" possible.

The only time this doesn't happen that I'm aware of is when the thing that someone says is "impossible" is in fact firmly against the known and proven laws of physics.
Of course, even that doesn't stop people from trying, and at least a few times in the past this has resulted in revolutionary advances in science and engineering, tho I feel that those days are largely beyond us (I'm fully aware that I could be proven wrong, and I'll happily eat my words if that case proves to be true).

Game developers especially are crafty people, and since the laws of physics as a whole largely don't apply to video games (beyond the limits they place on the amount of computing power you can dedicate to a game), they're able to pull off some incredibly impressive feats.

So in short, I don't agree with your statement that any of the features of KSP 2 are too far-reaching. Not even multiplayer.

Besides, you gotta remember that KSP 1 was developed back when the typical PC used for gaming was MAYBE a 2-core 32 bit machine, because we didn't even have 64 bit operating systems yet.
Now that 64 bit operating systems are the norm, and the typical gaming PC has roughly 4 times as much RAM and at least 8 CPU cores that are each capable of natively doing 64 bit operations, all at higher clock speeds than ever before, and I'd say that the average gaming computer of 2022 is capable of performing perhaps 4-8 times more computational work in the same time frame as a PC from when KSP 1 was initially being developed, and that's not even factoring in the GPU which could probably be brought in to help with some of the calculations (along with doing graphics I mean).
Dyson Sphere Program is another Unity engine game, it was developed by a really small team (if not just one person) and it uses the GPU to do most of the factory simulation work. I'm not sure how well that transfers over to doing physics simulations, but it can't be that it has zero overlap.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:32 AM, Compsagnathus said:

I have concerns that the stated features in KSP 2 might be too far reaching

 

On 6/8/2022 at 1:07 PM, SciMan said:

Game developers especially are crafty people

You guys both bring up good points - and I'm not quoting either wholesale b/c long posts.  Still, I like what you have written. 

I'm not a game developer, but I read a lot and have paid attention to several people who do have game development experience and extensive coding backgrounds.  Based on this, my intuition is that the combination of multi-player and warp is the bridge too far. 

I respect that the team is taking extra time to make good on the promised intended features they have advertised, but the game is due in a year and within the next 6 months they will have to S-or-get-off-the-pot with the decision of what features will be in the published game.

If in fact MP is the conflict, the sooner they S-can the feature the better the end product will be. 

Think about it. 

KSP2 can be a wholly realized success w/o MP. 

But - what of the other features can be scrapped without the game ultimately being a failure? 

[SciMan]

I fail to see how multiplayer and warp is a bridge too far when BOTH of the multiplayer mods for KSP 1 have quite soundly put that particular issue to bed.
And like I said, game developers are crafty people. But I should have said some more.

Game developers are also lazy. Now before you jump on me for saying that, let me explain why it's a good thing.
Bill Gates is often credited with the quote, “I will always choose a lazy person to do a difficult job because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it.”
(It's a great quote, but it actually came from Frank B. Gilbreth Sr.)
Now why does that mean good things for KSP 2 multiplayer and the ability to time warp whenever you want for however long you want? Well, it's like I said, the work's done already at least conceptually (might have to re-code the implementation to handle how KSP 2's code works differently to (and hopefully better than) KSP 1's code)

That means the solution is easy. Hire the devs of both of the 2 KSP 1 multiplayer mods, and if possible pick the best non-conflicting ideas from each to use for the multiplayer code of KSP 2.
That provides an excellent starting point. If things need to get more complex than that, at least you have something that worked that you can start from, which is a far sight better than starting from a blank sheet scratching your head.

I sincerely believe that the users commenting on the "KSP 2 discussion" subforum have blown this whole "issue" with multiplayer entirely out of proportion to the actual difficulty of solving the problem, because let's face it the majority of us on the forums are not in fact people with a history of creating mods, and so we as a group have no real understanding of how hard or easy any particular coding task in the confines of KSP is in reality.
Case in point: Sometimes simple things like " I want to have more than one docking port connect my ship together at a certain point to make it stronger" are next-to-impossible, sometimes extremely complex things (just take a look at KSP Interstellar Extended, or the RSS/RO/RP-1 suite of mods) can be implemented as a series of rather simple changes (lots of different changes sure, but each one conceptually and code-wise simple).

And for that reason I believe that the problem of how to implement KSP 2 multiplayer is firmly in the "this can be solved within a reasonable time frame" category, and absolutely nowhere else.

[t_v]

For some reason I thought you were talking about the FTL kind of warp and then realized you meant time warp. I don't think the problem is difficult to solve from a coding standpoint; in fact, I think your solution of getting two different mods and mashing them together would be harder than the actual solution. The problem is preference. 

Every other solution that was proposed is a matter of preference in how people play, and people have strong preferences. Some people prefer having what is essentially a single player experience with the builds of your friends popping up over time, some people want everyone playing to interact in real time, and there are different ways that it has been proposed, there are some who don't prioritize IRL time spent and have a Civilization-like system, etc. 

All of these preferences are the reason why this discussion has gone on for so long, because people really stick to them, because people want multiplayer KSP to be "good." 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

19 hours ago, SciMan said:

fail to see how multiplayer and warp is a bridge too far

You may be 100% correct.  I freely admit that I don't know what the technical limitations of coding both of these into the overall game might be.  

However I do think it's worth reiterating that of all the planned / hoped for features MP is the one thing that can be scrapped w/o ruining the game. 

 Kerbal Space Program 2 has been fully redesigned from the ground up to meet the demands of modern and next-generation space exploration, all while maintaining the monumental foundations of the first game. Build a space program, construct powerful spacecraft, design resource-gathering colonies, and much more

... 

Improved Onboarding 

Next Generation Technology

Colonies

Interstellar Travel

Multiplayer/Modding

 

 

FWIW - 'modding' support is one of most 'thrown away / delayed features from any studio / publisher... At least as far as I've seen in watching the industry over the past 30 years. 

I think it's a toss up whether "improved onboarding" or "multiplayer" are going to prove to be the feature that brings more people to the game and keeps them (including those features is as much a business decision as it is anything - the game can be KSP2 without either, but gaining and maintaining marketshare & new players is likely impacted by both) - my guess is that 'improved onboarding' is the better bet, and more economical given that you can hire writers and artists cheaper than you can software engineers. 

But if the studio fails to provide next gen tech, colonies or interstellar? 

There are a few features that are needed for KSP2 to be KSP2... And some that are just 'nice to haves' 

[mcwaffles2003]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:59 PM, Pthigrivi said:

Just a general question, why do folks care how a game’s PR/marketing campaign is going? It seems unique to gaming, but maybe Im wrong? I get why Intercept would care, and why T2 would care, but fans? Like Im never sitting around thinking “Gee the Red Sox really aren’t running enough promos this month” or “Damn how is Thor Love and Thunder going to hit its opening weekend targets on just two trailers?” All that really interest me is if the movie is good or not when it comes out? Is that weird?

Better PR = more people know about the game and find it attractive = more players= more players in multiplayer = more friends with a mutual very specific niche interest that I am excited to meet.  

[Rutabaga22]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:59 PM, Pthigrivi said:

Just a general question, why do folks care how a game’s PR/marketing campaign is going? It seems unique to gaming, but maybe Im wrong? I get why Intercept would care, and why T2 would care, but fans? Like Im never sitting around thinking “Gee the Red Sox really aren’t running enough promos this month” or “Damn how is Thor Love and Thunder going to hit its opening weekend targets on just two trailers?” All that really interest me is if the movie is good or not when it comes out? Is that weird?

It's because gaming is more community based, and people want the game they love to have a large community so it continues to expand. But that's just a theory, a GAME theory , thank for reading.

[Superluminal Gremlin]

12 hours ago, Rutabaga22 said:

But that's just a theory, a GAME theory , thank for reading.

i see what your doing their, mister

[Wizard Kerbal]

While "Intro" by M83 was used for the release cinematic, I believe "Wait" by M83 as well would have been more fitting.

[Vl3d]

Actually it was "Outro".

[WelshSteW]

Anyone else got a funny feeling about this Friday? Maybe it's the heat, but I think something might happen