Lach_01298

Mining, ISRU and Resources

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With KSP 2 new focus on Colonization and future tech do you think mining and ISRU is going to get a complete overhaul?

If so what do you want and expect of the new system? What new Resources would you like? What type of ISRU you want realistic, simplified, Kerbalized or a mix?

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

With KSP 2 new focus on Colonization and future tech do you think mining and ISRU is going to get a complete overhaul?

If so what do you want and expect of the new system? What new Resources would you like? What type of ISRU you want realistic, simplified, Kerbalized or a mix?

 

 

 

Resources are going to play a big part, and so the system is getting an overhaul. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

With KSP 2 new focus on Colonization and future tech do you think mining and ISRU is going to get a complete overhaul?

If so what do you want and expect of the new system? What new Resources would you like? What type of ISRU you want realistic, simplified, Kerbalized or a mix?

Hope we would need to go into particular places in order to mine specific ressources. 

Could be cool if certain fuel types were very expensive, so we could want to send an expedition onto that planet, make a mining base etc... 

Edited by Kaerbanogue

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Here's my personal opinion:

KSP 1 system of just "ore" is to simple. I don't find it enjoyable, its quite vague scientifically and doesn't inspire investigation into the technologies and resources of real life Space Exploration and ISRU.

So I want a vastly expand system that would cover things like fuel making, rocket and colony building and possible controversially life support.

Here I propose a rough template of the resources (names not finished) and ISRU i want. It is inspired by Classic Stock Resources, Pathfinder, MKS and Near Future Tech. It is based around the idea of simplified real resources that are possibly kerbalized. This may be overly complicated and possibly needs simplification. But this is a first draft and i would like other peoples opinion. And hopefully after the community has somewhat made the system they want that star theory may take ideas from it. (so everybody is happy :P)

Mineable Resources:

Basic resources (super common just what the ground is made of):

  • Regolith: for bodies with little to no atmosphere. Contains Small quantity of the ore materials like metallic ore, oxides. Also contains tiny amounts of Hexagen
  • Soil: for bodies with atmosphere. Contains Small quantity of the ore materials like metallic ore, oxides, nitronite.
  • Ices: For cold bodies and poles it is sort of a mixture of different kinds of ices like water, carbon dioxide, ammonia.

Ore Resources(These are more localized and some might not appear on some bodies)

  • Metallic ore: Common metals like iron, aluminium, titanium. It's for making metals for construction.
  • Radioactive ore: for nuclear fission fuels for reactors(and Orion drives!)
  • Oxides: for ceramics
  • Nitronite:  nitrogen containing minerals for a variety of things from Fertilizer to monopropellant and solid fuel.
  • Minerals: contains small amounts of rare materials and can make silicon.
  • Rare Materials: this is things like rare earths, gold, silver and platinum.

Atmosphere and Exosphere Resources:

  • Carbon dioxide: can be turned into fuel (Methane)
  • Nitrogen
  • Noble gases: these are things like Xenon and Argon for ion engines
  • Hydrogen: a fuel
  • Hexagen: a helium like stuff for fusion fuels (e.g. Deuterium, He3)

Oceanic Resources

  • Water:on kerbin and lathye like bodies. can be split into Hydrogen and Oxidizer (Liquid Oxygen)
  • Methane: on titian like bodies. literally free fuel just bring Oxidizer!
  • Explodium: what ever eves oceans are made of currently have no idea what to do with 

 

Processed Resources:

Construction Resources to build parts out of:

  • Metals: pretty general building material
  • Plastics/Polymers: another pretty general building material more for habitation parts
  • Rare Materials: for Electronic and special parts
  • Silicon: for Electronic parts
  • Ceramics: for heat shields and more permanent habs (Think concrete)

 

 

I  will probable post more info but that's it for now.

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17 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

Mineable Resources:

Basic resources (super common just what the ground is made of):

  • Regolith: for bodies with little to no atmosphere. Contains Small quantity of the ore materials like metallic ore, oxides. Also contains tiny amounts of Hexagen
  • Soil: for bodies with atmosphere. Contains Small quantity of the ore materials like metallic ore, oxides, nitronite.
  • Ices: For cold bodies and poles it is sort of a mixture of different kinds of ices like water, carbon dioxide, ammonia.

Ore Resources(These are more localized and some might not appear on some bodies)

  • Metallic ore: Common metals like iron, aluminium, titanium. It's for making metals for construction.
  • Radioactive ore: for nuclear fission fuels for reactors(and Orion drives!)
  • Oxides: for ceramics
  • Nitronite:  nitrogen containing minerals for a variety of things from Fertilizer to monopropellant and solid fuel.
  • Minerals: contains small amounts of rare materials and can make silicon.
  • Rare Materials: this is things like rare earths, gold, silver and platinum.

Atmosphere and Exosphere Resources:

  • Carbon dioxide: can be turned into fuel (Methane)
  • Nitrogen
  • Noble gases: these are things like Xenon and Argon for ion engines
  • Hydrogen: a fuel
  • Hexagen: a helium like stuff for fusion fuels (e.g. Deuterium, He3)

Oceanic Resources

  • Water:on kerbin and lathye like bodies. can be split into Hydrogen and Oxidizer (Liquid Oxygen)
  • Methane: on titian like bodies. literally free fuel just bring Oxidizer!
  • Explodium: what ever eves oceans are made of currently have no idea what to do with 

 

Processed Resources:

Construction Resources to build parts out of:

  • Metals: pretty general building material
  • Plastics/Polymers: another pretty general building material more for habitation parts
  • Rare Materials: for Electronic and special parts
  • Silicon: for Electronic parts
  • Ceramics: for heat shields and more permanent habs (Think concrete)

 

 

I  will probable post more info but that's it for now.

This looks very complicated for new players, or even for veteran players. Perhaps some should only be used for late game.

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I'd be happy for a Simplex Ores type arrangement, three types of ores to be converted into the different resources.

More complicated than ksp1, not over the top.

Peace.

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Posted (edited)

You might as well go with real chemistry. Space Engineers and Take on Mars show that this can work:

[planet] soil, [planet] rock, [planet] air - for unrefined substances taken from a given body, outside specific deposits. Split by refineries into all others, in planet-dependent proportions:

LS: 
Oxygen - For breathing and making oxidizer, or used as oxidizer itself.
Carbon - Mostly used to make methane, also needed in heatshield and nuclear reactor construction, and whenever iron is used (to make steel).
Hydrogen - Can be used as fuel, for Sabatier reactors to make methane, to make LF, monopropellant and ammonia for greenhouses. Also for fusion fuel, and in construction, in small amounts. :) 
Nitrogen - Needed for making LF and oxidizer, also in habitat construction. 

Compounds:
Water - for drinking and hydrogen production. Easy to find.
Ammonia - Needed for greenhouses to function.
CO2 - For greenhouses, exhaled by Kerbals.
Waste - Generic Kerbal waste, can be split into water, ammonia and carbon.

Propellants:
Methane - High performance rocket fuel. Also needed in construction for synthesizing plastics.
Liquid Fuel - UDMH. Entry-level fuel.
Oxidizer - NTO. Entry-level oxidizer.
Monopropellant - Hydrazine. Low-performance RCS propellant.
Lithium - Many types of fusion drives, MPD propellant and for construction of crewed parts (it's pretty great as neutron shield).
Xenon - Ion engine propellant.

Construction:
Silicon - glass and electronics.
Iron - Colonies and mid-performance structural parts. 
Aluminium - Rocket parts, plane parts and colonies. Anything lightweight.
Copper - Anything electrical, also some heat-resistant parts. 

Advanced construction:
Titanium - Engines and other heat-resistant parts.
Cobalt - High-performance structural parts and engines.
Silver - Science instruments, some life support parts.
Gold - Science instruments, advanced electronics.

Energy:
Deuterium - Refined from hydrogen. For fusion and in nuclear reactor construction.
Helium 3 - Rare fusion fuel.
Uranium - For nuclear reactors and engines.

This looks like a lot, but notice that it also dispenses with most intermediates. Indeed, Space Engineers players will find the construction stuff very familiar. The idea is to abstract away components themselves, and focus on providing materials for making them. The most complex process here is the LS loop (which would basically ), the others are simple "mine, refine, use" chains. Each part would, of course, have different material requirements to manufacture.

Edited by Dragon01

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i want a system where mining can be micromanaged at first and then delegated to resident kerbals as a foothold is established. this is unlocked when a certain supply condition is met (kerbals, ore, fuel, rovers, equipment, etc).

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If they're smart, they'll take another look at Kethane and its scanning system. That was/is an awesome thing.

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Welcome to Kerbal Freight Hulling. The game where you explore the system, plant some colonies, and start hauling freight for the rest of your time playing.

Seriously though, star theory needs to work out a background logistics system to move resources around.

And no, I'm not taking about recording one mission and repeating it. I'm talking about you setup a base or colony and the resources automatically end up where they are needed. No setup, no fuss. 

I want to explore, not run endless supply runs to build my interstellar ships.

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2 hours ago, Xd the great said:

This looks very complicated for new players, or even for veteran players. Perhaps some should only be used for late game.

Good thing is that this can be done in steps:

1. you only need oxygen for your very first orbital crafts. So just build and go.

2. Then you need food for munar ship (but you dont need to farm it. just pack it with you) and probably some oxygen recycling too. Pretty much build and go but this teaches you to at least consider the length of the mission.

3. When you start making a base you maybe want to ship in only a little bit of fertilizer and grow your own food. This lasts for a while and lets you expand your base. You can also send in more fertilizer with each expansion delivery.

4. Then you might want to start mining operations and maybe start making your own fertilizer on the spot. Probably start mining fuel and metal ores to refuel and maybe even build simple ships.Now you are introduced to mining and you probably want to make your colony more self sustainable so you dont have to babysit it anymore.

5. Later you will want more efficient fuels like radioactive materials and methane. Now you already know the basic mechanics and it is time to get more complicated.

6. And lastly you will probably want to manufacture complex parts and ships directly at the base so you will start to mine and refine rare materials and other stuff you need for those

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11 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

Good thing is that this can be done in steps:

1. you only need oxygen for your very first orbital crafts. So just build and go.

2. Then you need food for munar ship (but you dont need to farm it. just pack it with you) and probably some oxygen recycling too. Pretty much build and go but this teaches you to at least consider the length of the mission.

3. When you start making a base you maybe want to ship in only a little bit of fertilizer and grow your own food. This lasts for a while and lets you expand your base. You can also send in more fertilizer with each expansion delivery.

4. Then you might want to start mining operations and maybe start making your own fertilizer on the spot. Probably start mining fuel and metal ores to refuel and maybe even build simple ships.Now you are introduced to mining and you probably want to make your colony more self sustainable so you dont have to babysit it anymore.

5. Later you will want more efficient fuels like radioactive materials and methane. Now you already know the basic mechanics and it is time to get more complicated.

6. And lastly you will probably want to manufacture complex parts and ships directly at the base so you will start to mine and refine rare materials and other stuff you need for those

That was the idea. Early in the game you don't have to worry about all the resources and stuff just bring it with you. But in steps if you what to do more complicated things like off world fuel production and ship building you need more and different resources and production.

 

14 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

You might as well go with real chemistry. Space Engineers and Take on Mars show that this can work:

The idea is to get the essence of real life ISRU but to not have to many resources and intermediates. That's why things are placed into general resources like Metals which are analogous to iron, aluminium, copper. It emphasizes that metals, plastics, ceramics, silicon and rare materials are essential for off world civilizations without going into hundreds and possible thousands of different chemicals and materials.

Just to give you an idea:

Plastics: polyethylene, polystyrene, polyvinyl chloride,  polylactide, poly polypropylene,....

Metals: Iron, aluminium, copper, titanium, chromium, nickel, cobalt,....

Ceramics:Concrete,Bricks, insulation, Heat shields, glasses,....

Silicon: well it is sort of just silicon but it is immensely important in electronics

Rare Materials: Rare earths elements (yttrium,neodymium,ytterbium,...),Nobel metals(gold,silver,platinum,palladium),....  These are immensely important in most advance technologies like displays, lasers, computers, magnets, solar panels, optic fibers, Chemical catalysts,etc

 

The problem with a space engineers like system is you have your base elements which are fine but then you need to assemble them into parts like plates, grids, tubes, etc which is realistic but adds another layer of complexity that i think players shouldn't have to worry about.

12 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

Welcome to Kerbal Freight Hulling. The game where you explore the system, plant some colonies, and start hauling freight for the rest of your time playing.

That's another thing I want to address I want to make the system have as little micro managing as possible. Players should occupy themselves with the big things like exploring, planning new missions and colonies not shipping materials from one base to another. I have stated in another topic about life support

Quote

For colonies I think there should be as little micromanaging as possible. Ways of achieving this are once a colony has sufficient production (i.e enough farms, water extractors, oxygen generators) that you should not have to worry about the colony again. The population can't exceed the colonies production. If you want the colony to expand you have to add more modules to increase production of each resource then the population will grow into what is available. But I think while setting up a colony you should have to worry about life support. So there is initial difficulty setting it up but then it sustainable so you can worry about setting up a new colony instead of worrying about the already set up one. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

The problem with a space engineers like system is you have your base elements which are fine but then you need to assemble them into parts like plates, grids, tubes, etc which is realistic but adds another layer of complexity that i think players shouldn't have to worry about.

If you read what I said, I explicitly wanted to abstract that particular part away. This step would be performed during the part's assembly, by Kerbals assigned to the refinery, without player intervention. Basically, the SE-style system, but with Kerbals doing all the welding.

Generic "plastics" and "metals" and so on is a bad idea, because it teaches nothing. Cobalt is not copper, and neither of them is necessarily found anywhere near iron. Also, complete parts are only a little lighter than materials used to make them, but they take up more volume. There's no reason to carry completed parts, when every workshop can just 3D print the necessary components, as long as it has materials. Your system is more complicated and less educational. 

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16 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

If you read what I said, I explicitly wanted to abstract that particular part away. This step would be performed during the part's assembly, by Kerbals assigned to the refinery, without player intervention. Basically, the SE-style system, but with Kerbals doing all the welding.

Generic "plastics" and "metals" and so on is a bad idea, because it teaches nothing. Cobalt is not copper, and neither of them is necessarily found anywhere near iron. Also, complete parts are only a little lighter than materials used to make them, but they take up more volume. There's no reason to carry completed parts, when every workshop can just 3D print the necessary components, as long as it has materials. Your system is more complicated and less educational. 

Yeah sorry I did know what you meant I just wanted to get the idea that i'm against things like in MKS (machinery, Specialized parts, material kits). As for cobalt is not copper you are right it's not an accurate system but it's mainly for gameplay and simplicity reasons. Otherwise you would need to plan very very carefully where to place you colonies. e.g. you would need to place a colony at a place with iron, aluminium, copper, titanium,silicon and water or have multiple bases just to build rockets. This Simplified system allows you to have 1 or 2 bases to start rocket production. The system is also to inspire people to think about ISRU science not force them to learn it just to play a game. Anyway for those people who want the die hard realism you can get/make mods if they implement a good completely modable resource system.

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Just because I'm insane and can't stop thinking about KSP2 :sticktongue: . Here's the system I'm proposing (names not final would like kerbal suggestions) 

Note: the names in brackets are what real life things there suppose to be Analogues to.

Legend

Colours:

  • Orange: Mining
  • Yellow: Industrial
  • Red: Fuel
  • Green: Biological
  • Grey: Construction

Shapes:

  • Square: Process
  • round: Resources
  • Circle: Mining
  • Trapezium : Actual parts/ part Categories

Z35s4O3.png

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 Rocket fuels:

  • HydroKarbon and Oxidizer: replaces old LFO with a metholox type fuel
  • Hydrogen and Oxidizer: for higher performance vacuum engines. Easier to make fuel for. 
  • Monopropellant: same as the old monopropellant
  • Noble Gases: for ion engines. It is basically a merge between xenon and argon since argon is fairly common in planets atmospheres while xenon is really rare.
  • Solid Fuel: same as old solid Fuel
  • Nuclear Explosives: For you Orion drive needs
  • Hexagen: for fusion engines. Basically a cross between Deuterium, Tritium and Helium 3

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16 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

Welcome to Kerbal Freight Hulling. The game where you explore the system, plant some colonies, and start hauling freight for the rest of your time playing.

Seriously though, star theory needs to work out a background logistics system to move resources around.

And no, I'm not taking about recording one mission and repeating it. I'm talking about you setup a base or colony and the resources automatically end up where they are needed. No setup, no fuss. 

I want to explore, not run endless supply runs to build my interstellar ships.

i think anything you can do in the game should be something you can eventually assign kerbals to do for you in the background. hard to unlock but once done frees you up to move on to the next big thing.

might actually provide a use for the kerbal base skills. you wouldnt want to put a stupid kerbal in charge of a nuclear power plant and you wouldn't want to put your less courageous kerbals in charge of test flights and you most certainly don't want jeb to pilot passenger vessels. and they shouldnt be perfect. every now and then throw an apollo 13 type scenario at the player. something like this post i made in the add on forum. 

 

 

Edited by Nuke

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Personally I was fine with KSP1 ore system.

No it's not really realistic, no it's not complex.  But it was easy and fun to use.
I fear that the new one will be TOO complex.  Like that annoying mod for KSP1 (that some ppl will absolutely love, I get it) that has a bajillion resources and off products.
I mean... sure had a few more.  But not 15.  Maybe up to 5 would be enough.  Combine these 5 to make everything the game need, and don't make everything cool need the Eeloonium that's only minable from the darkside of Eeloo's 5th moon when it's at it's furthest from the sun.

I'm a veteran player, and even I feel that they must be careful with this.
My 2 cents.

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I'm feeling somewhat skeptical about this notion of lots of different resource types with resource harvesting and utilisation a major new gameplay dimension, for much the same reasons as @Francois424. There's a big risk that it'll turn into a time-sink and a chore that detracts from the fun of building bases, flying rockets, and exploring systems, rather than contribute to it. If it's at all like @Lach_01298 proposes I'll be sticking with KSP 1.

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6 hours ago, Lach_01298 said:

Just because I'm insane and can't stop thinking about KSP2 :sticktongue: . Here's the system I'm proposing (names not final would like kerbal suggestions) 

--snip--

Reminds me of MKS, if you're suggesting this for a future mod, cool. If you're thinking it should be stock, umm, no. Too complicated for stock, it has to be streamlined. But without knowing what resources star theory is going to put into KSP2, I personally wouldn't get to hung up on it.

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14 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

Reminds me of MKS, if you're suggesting this for a future mod, cool. If you're thinking it should be stock, umm, no. Too complicated for stock, it has to be streamlined. But without knowing what resources star theory is going to put into KSP2, I personally wouldn't get to hung up on it.

Your probably right and i'm way over ambitious. I might make it into a mod. But that being said I want the stock system to be as flexible as possible so systems like this can be easily implemented.

examples: I want the ability to define what resources parts are made of. The ability to create resource converters that work natively in the background automatically. The ability to disable stock ISRU. Becuse currently in KSP1 these can be done with mods but mostly with dll files that add entirely different systems that aren't compatible with one another easily. eg there are several different part switching and construction mods each with the own UI and have slightly different capabilites.

 

Anyway don't be discourage from sharing opinions and ideas on this thread. That's the whole point of this thread to get community ideas. They are just ideas after all and 99% of them won't be implemented anyway. But if anyone does find out any official information on mining, ISRU and resources in KSP2 in the coming months this would be a thread to post them to. 

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They seem to be focusing on how colonies do stuff for you. I'm starting to wonder if you'll plop a colony down and every x hours they make y units of raw material, based on the ores in their location, the size of the colony, perhaps what "parts" the colony has and maybe a tech level unlock or something.

Then you're not mining flobidium and kerbonium and combining them into Valerian steel. You're landing on (or near, according to them) the colony you placed on the combo flobonite/kerbonite patch and picking up the steel they have made since your last visit.

That kind of resource system they can make as complex as they want, as your main interaction with it will be pinpoint landing things in interesting key areas that you found with the scanning setup you put in place earlier.

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38 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

Your probably right and i'm way over ambitious. I might make it into a mod. But that being said I want the stock system to be as flexible as possible so systems like this can be easily implemented.

Yeah, it a little too early to get to deep into the stock resource system. But if you want to do a mod, just be flexible for whatever surprises star theory have up their sleeves. But I do agree on making it easy to mod in a different or modified resource chain. 

49 minutes ago, Lach_01298 said:

Anyway don't be discourage from sharing opinions and ideas on this thread. That's the whole point of this thread to get community ideas. They are just ideas after all and 99% of them won't be implemented anyway. But if anyone does find out any official information on mining, ISRU and resources in KSP2 in the coming months this would be a thread to post them to.

Always share ideas, who knows, your idea may be added into the game as a stock item or spark a mod idea. You will have people will either support or be against the idea. They will supply their opinion, but you can gauge what you need to change or what you can move forward with.

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22 hours ago, Francois424 said:

Personally I was fine with KSP1 ore system.

No it's not really realistic, no it's not complex.  But it was easy and fun to use.
I fear that the new one will be TOO complex.  Like that annoying mod for KSP1 (that some ppl will absolutely love, I get it) that has a bajillion resources and off products.
I mean... sure had a few more.  But not 15.  Maybe up to 5 would be enough.  Combine these 5 to make everything the game need, and don't make everything cool need the Eeloonium that's only minable from the darkside of Eeloo's 5th moon when it's at it's furthest from the sun.

I'm a veteran player, and even I feel that they must be careful with this.
My 2 cents.

id like a little more detail in the resources. not as far as some of the realistic fuels mods go, but more than just four things. and more than one primary ore and a magic converter to make whatever you want with it. you might have to go 2 or 3 places to get everything you need at first. id like to see more raw resources that can be used as is without any processing with intakes and pumps. every atmosphere and ocean in the game needs to have its own composition. and likewise ores may have different compositions where the ore has to contain the thing you need if you want to have access to it. different biomes and different types of asteroids would yield different stuff. and there should be no single converter that gives you everything you need. 

Edited by Nuke

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Aether and Phlogiston.

Aether everywhere. To use chutes and electric propellers in space, and to drag and heat ships when they get too fast.

Phlogiston mined in hot places and stored in barrels. Say, to heat the interplanetary aether in vacuum jet engines.

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