Tachtra

Life Support system?

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I'll put this simply. A video game does not require one answer. You can have all answers. It's called customization. IE settings. Just make settings for everything so people can choose. Then you get more game out of it. 8\

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Do not oversimplify Life Support, please! 

COMPLEX life support will call for more complex ISRU sysytems when building a self-sufficient base. More building. More transportation. More management. More fun.

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Being for the benefit of @Dr. Jet and @Lord Aurelius, a repeat of my old rant about life support systems is in this here spoiler:

Spoiler

 

On 12/7/2018 at 7:06 PM, Laie said:

I've come to dislike life support mods. The more detailed they become, the worse they are.

Quite generally, the agreed-upon mass and density of "food" as written down in CRP (and hence used by basically everyone) is based on an 1980's shuttle mission. Shrink-wrapped freeze-dried stuff, nearly 50% packaging by weight. Conversely, "waste" is what was in the waste receptacle at the end of that flight: lots of plastic wrappers.

This works reasonably well with TACLS in a RealismOverhaul context, at least for short-term missions. Though even there you need huge garbage bins because high-density carbon-scrubbers become low-density waste. The KSP resource in, resource out model doesn't allow for used scrubbers to be put back in the box they came from. And going to Mars on low-density shuttle supplies? It's by no means impossible, but the scale of the larder becomes noticably silly.

Other mods seem to assume that "waste" is 100% organic and compostable, and that "food" is sacks of potatoes and sides of meat. Which is no worse an assumption than shuttle food, but a) I'm not aware of any mod requiring a galley, and b) if containers are scaled off CRP densities (which, to recap, assumes-freeze dried food and plastic wrapper waste), things become weird.

TL;DR: life support gives you a lot of numbers to watch and pay attention to. Depending on which system you use, it can become a minigame in it's own right. That's fine. Just don't believe that it's realistic or correct. Especially not if the system of your choice allows you to build self-sufficient bases. Do Kerbals mend their socks, and if so, where do they get the thread?

However:

On 9/3/2019 at 7:32 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

I really hope life support is implemented. It's an embarrassingly large omission for a space game [...]

Doesn't need to be complicated. One supply resource, one waste resource, with high mass recyclers to make bases and stations self sufficient if that's your thing. 

And yes, kerbals should die if they run out of life support. I don't get why we're suddenly squeamish about dying kerbals after all the explosive dismemberment we've all done. 

An embarrassingly large omission indeed. Yet if there's to be any LS in the stock game, that's the one model I can get behind. Keep it simple, because in first approximation LS only means more mass -- and beyond that, no amount of complications can make it realistic. For long-term installations, add a simple Inifintron-3000 converter to opt out of the system.

Edited by Laie

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I played KSP with some Life Support Mods, but they have all the same problem - they are unbalanced.
The containers with ressources were too heavy and for me it was too hard to guess how much ressources would be needed for the missions.

Edited by Oszilgath

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21 hours ago, Oszilgath said:

I played KSP with some Life Support Mods, but they have all the same problem - they are unbalanced.
The containers with ressources were too heavy and for me it was too hard to guess how much ressources would be needed for the missions.

Did you use any life support recyclers when you tried those mods? How long of missions were you trying to do? All LS mods I tried (mostly TAC life support and UFI Life Support) had pretty good balance IMHO where the crew capsules had enough LS for early LKO missions, for Mun/Minmus missions you had to add a little bit, but the weight only really became a big concern for interplanetary if you weren't using recyclers. Same thing would happen if you wanted to do an interplanetary mission with just batteries/fuel cells without bringing along solar panels or RTGs (hmm, now that sounds like an interesting challenge). Sure, you're going to need a lot more than a MK1 capsule to get a Kerbal across the solar system alive, but isn't that the point of playing with life support, to eliminate the realism break of being able to do that?

Your second point is valid for LS, but is also a problem in stock KSP for dV since unless you're using a dV map/calculator the game gives you zero info on how much dV you actually need and you're pretty much guessing on that front as well. Definitely an issue worth addressing if some sort of stock LS is added, but not a new issue for the base game either.

I've long thought that KSP could greatly benefit from a mission planner that would let you place a bunch of maneuver nodes and get an idea of the launch windows, dV requirements and mission duration, and it would nicely solve both issues. Would be even better if you could see the mission plan during your flight and have the maneuver nodes prepopulated.

Edited by Lord Aurelius

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On 9/4/2019 at 2:01 PM, shdwlrd said:

Don't disagree on any single point, but the player should decide whether the Kerbals die or become inactive.

Having you Kerbals die because you want to do something else and not paying attention to them, that's no fun, that's borderline eff this game.

There could be options for when LS runs out, like many LS mods do already, and/or have really good balance and game mechanics to deal with it without potentially bricking a mission, eg. a BL2 type paid respawn that could be optional, etc.  I tend to favor video game logic over realism though...

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Karbalas live on a terrestrial planet with atmosphere and water in the habitable zone. That is, they are a carbon form of life. Their missiles contain fuel and oxidizer, and jet engines use air from the atmosphere. So life support should consist of oxygen (air), food (snacks) and water (moisture) as a minimum. And of course, they must die from overheating or overly long overloads (and not only lose consciousness as it is now)

ps: It became uninteresting to play without a life support after the first year in KSP... I don’t remember what version of the game it was then ... TAC-LS kept me in the game till now.

 

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