No more free dlc for old players :-)

[pandaman]

@Dragon01,

You are free to continue that loyalty you showed Squad by choosing to not purchase KSP2 and just stick with KSP1 and continue to recieve free updates and DLC for it for as long as they are willing and able to provide it (hopefully for many years to come).

Their (Squad's) agreement with you, and I, and many other early adopters, has so far been fully honoured IMHO and is set to continue.

We can ALL continue to play KSP1 and recieve the DLC etc for it as we do now, as per their agreement.  We also ALL have the choice to buy, and play KSP2 as well if we wish.

[Guest]

Why do you present this as a choice? Nothing's stopping me from sticking with KSP1 even after I get KSP2. Truth to be told, KSP1 development will probably fizzle out in a year after KSP2 is out, unless KSP2 crashes and burns. I doubt we'd be seeing many more DLCs. However, that just means a more stable platform for modding, no more mod-breaking updates. Where did you get the idea that it's an "either-or" situation? I won't just ditch Squad because there's a new game in town. Their appointed successors look good, but they have a high bar to clear before they get my support on the same degree. Also, if Squad makes a new, unrelated game, I would look into it on that basis alone.

Since KSP2 is KSP, and not some unrelated game, then I think it needs to acknowledge this community, especially those who's been here long enough to have shaped KSP1. 

1 hour ago, dave1904 said:

if a game came out tomorrow that was better than ksp we would all swap. Impossible however since the little green men create and attachment.. 

You're making a ridiculous generalization. You would swap. Others, on the other hand, may stick with KSP1 just because it's KSP that they helped bring to life, or their favorite modders are on KSP, or any number of other reasons. Or simply because they may lack money to buy anything else. If this was a competing brand, you'd probably end up with a situation like the ArmA-new OFP war a while ago (the latter fizzled out, but it could get heated before it did).

[boolybooly]

Depends how you look at it. I am a cup half full about this, when I first got into KSP it was ages ago, 2011 or earlier due to notification on relic.news, now defunct, which was originally a Homeworld fansite, before they went WH40K etc because I love games with spaceships in. I bought KSP alpha for $15 or something and then I bought it twice more just to give them more money.

So I guess you could look at it as Private Division reducing legacy liabilities and maximising profits but if they are developing KSP2 and money helps then I want to give them money, because that means KSP2 gets funded. The very least they have to do is pay costs and break even and if they make a profit then its an incentive to make more KSP which I want them to do so I want them to make a profit.

IMHO they have judged carefully what is worthy of being KSP1 DLC and what is KSP2 and have gone the extra mile to add to KSP1 while reengineering the engine so it can handle multiple star systems, which seems to qualify as KSP2 in my book. This does not feel like an accounting driven fast ball approach, they have thought about this and IMHO they got it right.

I wont tell you how much I backed Elite and Star Citizen for due to the high profile of spaceships in the pitches but compared to those, full price for KSP2 is great value, considering how much I play it.

 

 

[linuxgurugamer]

3 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Since KSP2 is KSP, and not some unrelated game, then I think it needs to acknowledge this community, especially those who's been here long enough to have shaped KSP1. 

What makes you think the haven't acknowledged this community?  Just a few weeks ago,  at their expense, the flew in 9 significant members of the community to ASK OUR ADVICE about the new game.  Yes. I was one, and they spent over $2000 on my airfare and hotel.  It was a great meeting, and one of the things we took away was that "they get it".

[Daniel Prates]

Of all things still mysterious about KSP2, one that sure is not one of them is "OMG they are only doing it to stop handing out free DLC for alter kampfers". Specially so because developing KSP2 will be waaaaay more expensive than funding new DLC for ksp1 - so that couldn't be the reason.

This forum can have some weird discussions sometimes.... even now some other guys are discussing to death,  in another thread, how reasonable it is to have space elevators (yawn) on a rocket-building game.....

Edited September 8, 2019 by Daniel Prates

[dave1904]

4 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

What makes you think the haven't acknowledged this community?  Just a few weeks ago,  at their expense, the flew in 9 significant members of the community to ASK OUR ADVICE about the new game.  Yes. I was one, and they spent over $2000 on my airfare and hotel.  It was a great meeting, and one of the things we took away was that "they get it".

that is so not fair. I want a 2000% discount on all future games too. 

[linuxgurugamer]

12 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

that is so not fair. I want a 2000% discount on all future games too. 

When you are maintaining 200+ mods for free, as well as having multi-thousands of posts in the forum helping people,  I'm sure you will get things as well

Edited September 8, 2019 by linuxgurugamer

[dave1904]

7 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

You're making a ridiculous generalization. You would swap. Others, on the other hand, may stick with KSP1 just because it's KSP that they helped bring to life, or their favorite modders are on KSP, or any number of other reasons. Or simply because they may lack money to buy anything else. If this was a competing brand, you'd probably end up with a situation like the ArmA-new OFP war a while ago (the latter fizzled out, but it could get heated before it did).

No I am not. Loyalty doesn't exist. Gamers will play games that are fun and as soon as they are bored or loose the addiction(in MMOs more than singleplayer games) they move on. Brand loyalty is a bit of a different thing. Most people that are loyal to companies like audi, apple or whatever company there is out there are not that aware of alternatives. They are completely uninformed. Gamers know exactly what they want because they have instant access to youtube and gameplay videos.

If KSP2 fails to live up to KSP1 it will fail hard. People are going to switch for game play reasons only. If KSP2 is as moddable and really performs as well as they are saying I have 0 reasons to stay with KSP1. Nobody plays an inferior product because they want to be loyal to Sqaud. If Squad wanted to continue to have a loyal community they will need to make another game. KSP2 and KSP1 cannot coexist if KSP2 is an actuall good game. 

2 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

When you are maintaining 200+ mods for free, as well as having multi-thousands of posts in the forum helping people,  I'm sure you will get things as well

I'm just kidding man. Fair play to you cause I love your mods. The fact they they are talking to you guys is great. I think I even tryed donating to your patreon or something but cannot access my paypal anymore.  I know stupid excuses and laziness. I will do it man since I use most of you mods just give me time. 

[linuxgurugamer]

45 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

If KSP2 fails to live up to KSP1 it will fail hard. People are going to switch for game play reasons only. If KSP2 is as moddable and really performs as well as they are saying I have 0 reasons to stay with KSP1. Nobody plays an inferior product because they want to be loyal to Sqaud. If Squad wanted to continue to have a loyal community they will need to make another game. KSP2 and KSP1 cannot coexist if KSP2 is an actuall good game. 

 

Hmmm.  I still play a game I got nearly 20 years ago, if not more.  Came on a single 3 1/2" floppy, but is still a great game to play.  Newer technology doesn't trump gameplay

[dave1904]

32 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

 

Hmmm.  I still play a game I got nearly 20 years ago, if not more.  Came on a single 3 1/2" floppy, but is still a great game to play.  Newer technology doesn't trump gameplay

Thats what I said. Notice the bit where I said "People are going to switch for game play reasons only" 

My entire point is that if gameplay is the same or better and the game is better from a technical point, there is no reason to play KSP1 again. Well I wouldn't say never but people will not invest nearly as much time as in the new product. 

The question is if KSP2s gameplay is better or worse. You would know more about it than me I assume. If the gameplay is not as good there might not be a reason for any of us to switch. 

Chaos Theory is a better game than Pandora Tomorrow in every way. Still Pandora tomorrow is different enough to go back and play that. The same applies to all Splinter Cell games. Story plays a role too to be fair. That is the question about KSP2. If it improves on existing mechanics without changing them to much then why play KSP1? 

Edited September 8, 2019 by dave1904

[Guest]

There's one good reason to keep playing KSP1 after KSP2 is out: KSP2 costs money, and you have already paid for KSP1. Quite a few players are young (and outside the US, earning money while underage is hard, mostly because it's pretty much forbidden by law), and it's also big in Russia and Eastern Europe, which tend to get the short end of the stick when it comes to buying things like games, since they're proportionally much more expensive than in the West. A Russian kid can scrounge up $10 much more easily than $60, so KSP1 will have players until KSP2 drops in price and starts ending up with 75% discounts on Steam. It usually takes a year or two, sometimes more.

Also, as a general rule, when the sequel gets released, the previous games in the series drop in price like a rock, and tend to get large discounts on top of that to get people hooked on the series. This can bring new people to KSP1, especially those who have been unable to afford it before (as well as some who buy things just because they're discounted). I'm one release behind on several games I don't actually care about, myself. My father buys them in bundles for Steam trading cards, and older releases of otherwise expensive series are a common fixture of those.

10 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

What makes you think the haven't acknowledged this community?  Just a few weeks ago,  at their expense, the flew in 9 significant members of the community to ASK OUR ADVICE about the new game.  Yes. I was one, and they spent over $2000 on my airfare and hotel.  It was a great meeting, and one of the things we took away was that "they get it".

This was a bit different thing. Most of them were YouTubers, and the others were people, like you, who are very recognizable in the community. Of those, I remember Manley as being with KSP from the start (KSP without Manley would be like a rocket without a nosecone, so to speak  ). 9 people can't really be anything more than a publicity stunt. "Significant members of community" here means "people whose virtual face everyone will recognize", in other words, who'll generate the biggest publicity. It's a nice gesture, sure, but, quite frankly, the nine you aren't the community. It's quite a bit bigger than that, and inviting a small sample for a chat is quite different from what Squad was doing in the early days. If they only talk to celebrities, they won't get the whole picture.

[dave1904]

4 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

There's one good reason to keep playing KSP1 after KSP2 is out: KSP2 costs money, and you have already paid for KSP1. Quite a few players are young (and outside the US, earning money while underage is hard, mostly because it's pretty much forbidden by law), and it's also big in Russia and Eastern Europe, which tend to get the short end of the stick when it comes to buying things like games, since they're proportionally much more expensive than in the West

Funny you say that because I play an mmo naval action with many Russians that tell me games are super cheap since they have lower prices. If people had no money to switch gta or red dead wouldn't make a billion on day one. People have more than enough these days and poor countries pay less for games on steam. 

In order to play the game they need 800-1000 euro on a pc, monitor and the rest of the equipment. I'm sure 60 euro more won't make a difference. 

[Flavio hc16]

1 hour ago, dave1904 said:

Funny you say that because I play an mmo naval action with many Russians . 

Wows?

[MechBFP]

14 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

and inviting a small sample for a chat is quite different from what Squad was doing in the early days.

I don’t recall Squad inviting the entire KSP community out to Mexico on their own dime to look at KSP in early development.

Edited September 9, 2019 by MechBFP

[Greenfire32]

There's no conspiracy. It's literally just a sequel game releasing a decade after the original.

I'm a veteran player who gets all DLC for KSP1 for free. The gravy train has to stop some time.

[linuxgurugamer]

14 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

This was a bit different thing. Most of them were YouTubers, and the others were people, like you, who are very recognizable in the community.

Well, first off, at least 1/3 were NOT YouTubers (Snark, Galileo and myself).  I stream, but have a very low follower count, and was told I was invited because of the modding that I do.

So, if you were a company looking for input on a new product, who would you invite?  No names, or people who have established through their actions that they have an interest in, and influence on, the product being developed?

15 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

9 people can't really be anything more than a publicity stunt.

I don't understand what you mean.  How many people would it take in your opinion to NOT be a publicity stunt?

The complete list invitee was:

• BadNewsBaron
• Billy Winn Jr.
• Das Valdez
• EJ_SA
• Galileo (modder)
• LinuxGuruGamer (modder)
• Scott Manley
• Shadowzone
• Snark (modder, forum moderator)

I think it's significant that they invited the modders in along with the streamers.  

15 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

"Significant members of community" here means "people whose virtual face everyone will recognize",

I disagree. It can also mean "people who have a significant impact on the community, in one form or another".  Big streamers such as Das & EJ do a lot of teaching.  Modders develop new content.  

So let me ask you a question:

In your opinion, if there weren't any mods for KSP, would it have survived as long as it has? 

If not, then that implies that modders have a significant impact by virtue of providing new content, etc.

[dave1904]

9 hours ago, Flavio hc16 said:

Wows?

 

Its released now but I don't like the finished version. Was a far better game in alpha. Ukrainian devs and many Russians players. The Russians always had the latest DLC and games because they thought it was so funny how cheap they could buy games. I don't personally enjoy wow. 

[TheSaint]

I'm going to guess that among all of the mistakes that have been made in the long development history of KSP, promising free DLC probably ranks very high on the list, if not at #1. Not because of any lost revenue. But because it has, in the long term, backfired, and generated far more discontent and entitlement than good press. In the immortal words of Rupert Giles, "The words, 'let that be a lesson,' are a tad redundant at this juncture."

[Kerbart]

13 minutes ago, TheSaint said:

I'm going to guess that among all of the mistakes that have been made in the long development history of KSP, promising free DLC probably ranks very high on the list, if not at #1

You forgot the word preventable as well, to rub some more salt into the wound; I was dumbfounded by the announcement “all upgrades are free” the moment it came  out. How do you intend to fund continuous development with one-time revenue? This wasn’t a “who knew?” oversight, but rather something incredibly shortsighted, naive, or a combination of both — probably founded in not believing how incredibly sustainable the popularity of KSP turned out to be.

[dave1904]

21 minutes ago, TheSaint said:

I'm going to guess that among all of the mistakes that have been made in the long development history of KSP, promising free DLC probably ranks very high on the list, if not at #1. Not because of any lost revenue. But because it has, in the long term, backfired, and generated far more discontent and entitlement than good press. In the immortal words of Rupert Giles, "The words, 'let that be a lesson,' are a tad redundant at this juncture."

Early access players get free DLC. I just cannot comprehend how cheap people can be. Its just like players that pirate games from developers or publishers they do not like. If you dislike a company you should boycot and not make up excuses for being cheap. I cannot afford a ferrari but that doesn't mean ferrari should give me a discount or I can steal one. People should stop poodleing around about things like that because sooner or later the devs and publishers will have enough and we will not be allowed to mod games like many others have done so far. Its extremely difficult to make a game extremely mod friendly and sell DLC. 

It has not backfired on them because some people are not happy until they get everything for free and will complain about everything because they are simply cheap. 

Maybe some people would prefer loads of free DLC and years of free updates until squad goes bust......

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by dave1904

[XLjedi]

22 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

 

Hmmm.  I still play a game I got nearly 20 years ago, if not more.  Came on a single 3 1/2" floppy, but is still a great game to play.  Newer technology doesn't trump gameplay

Which game was that?

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, TheSaint said:

I'm going to guess that among all of the mistakes that have been made in the long development history of KSP, promising free DLC probably ranks very high on the list, if not at #1. Not because of any lost revenue. But because it has, in the long term, backfired, and generated far more discontent and entitlement than good press. In the immortal words of Rupert Giles, "The words, 'let that be a lesson,' are a tad redundant at this juncture."

If I remember correctly, they didn't really say that.  They said something along the lines of free updates forever, and people jumped on that to mean DLC as well;  so they acknowledged that it was poorly stated and decided to honor the broader meaning as most people read it

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

If I remember correctly, they didn't really say that.  They said something along the lines of free updates forever, and people jumped on that to mean DLC as well;  so they acknowledged that it was poorly stated and decided to honor the broader meaning as most people read it

I recall there being something in the purchase agreement itself, along the lines of "All future updates and expansions" or somesuch. It was a long ago, but I'm sure there was wording that a lawyer to run away with. Early Squad was a small, tight-knit outfit, with a great idea and no experience whatsoever.

Truth to be told, the original Squad had an outright aversion to the idea of DLC, and they quite explicitly stated, multiple times, that there won't be any. The original agreement had a very principled feeling, they wanted nothing to do with DLCs or other "revenue enhancing devices". Of course, that was long ago, and none of those people are on the team now. They did want to sell merchandise, you know those cute Kerbal plushies and 3D printed stuff, as well as side stuff like the Kerbalizer (anyone still remember that?), which I suppose could have supported continued development, but that didn't really pan out too well.

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Well, first off, at least 1/3 were NOT YouTubers (Snark, Galileo and myself).  I stream, but have a very low follower count, and was told I was invited because of the modding that I do.So, if you were a company looking for input on a new product, who would you invite?  No names, or people who have established through their actions that they have an interest in, and influence on, the product being developed?

The complete list invitee was:

• BadNewsBaron
• Billy Winn Jr.
• Das Valdez
• EJ_SA
• Galileo (modder)
• LinuxGuruGamer (modder)
• Scott Manley
• Shadowzone
• Snark (modder, forum moderator)

I think it's significant that they invited the modders in along with the streamers.  

I disagree. It can also mean "people who have a significant impact on the community, in one form or another".  Big streamers such as Das & EJ do a lot of teaching.  Modders develop new content.  

So let me ask you a question:

In your opinion, if there weren't any mods for KSP, would it have survived as long as it has? 

If not, then that implies that modders have a significant impact by virtue of providing new content, etc.

1/3 is a minority. I said "most of them" were YouTubers, and that is correct. Of course mods are central to KSP, and in fact several were incorporated in the early stage. Why did they, in this case, only invite three modders, out of whom one was a local, anyway. Where is @CobaltWolf, where is @Nertea, where is @eggrobin where is @Shadowmage, among others? I'm not saying all of them could make it if they were invited, but if they were, they certainly didn't mention it. All of them make mods which are popular, high quality and innovative. 

I'm not saying you shouldn't have gotten invited, but that this specific event seems more oriented towards publicity than feedback. You're right, they invited people who could have significant impact on the community. What I wanted to see is the community having impact on them. What I see, in this lineup, are people selected not for their input, but their output. 

Quote

I don't understand what you mean.  How many people would it take in your opinion to NOT be a publicity stunt?

All of them? If they really want to listen to the community, they should show their faces here. Read the forum, engage in discussions, give snippets of info, that sort of thing. That's what Squad did. HarversteR himself was here, talking to people, reading forum threads, replying in them. Other team members, too. We used to have the Daily Kerbal, where they posted dev info, talked about themselves, and even wrote poetry. When I posted a thread on how they got Isp mechanics wrong, they acknowledged it and fixed it in the next release. That's what community interaction looks like.

2 hours ago, MechBFP said:

I don’t recall Squad inviting the entire KSP community out to Mexico on their own dime to look at KSP in early development.

Of course, that would be far too much hassle, we have internet for a reason. I don't think you remember the time they gave us weekly peeks at the development and participated in forum discussions, either. FIY, it was very much a thing and I do miss those times. The current Squad, while they seem genuinely competent at actually developing the game, doesn't have nearly as much forum presence, though they do seem to at be aware of what's going on, at least (their latest SRB lineup being suspiciously ReStock+-like, for instance).

Edited September 9, 2019 by Guest

[TheSaint]

9 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

If I remember correctly, they didn't really say that.  They said something along the lines of free updates forever, and people jumped on that to mean DLC as well;  so they acknowledged that it was poorly stated and decided to honor the broader meaning as most people read it

There were any number of ways that Squad could have resolved it in their favor. They could have just not made the statement in the first place. (Because who charges for updates and bug fixes anyway?) They could have immediately clarified the statement to exclude DLC. People would have grumbled for a couple weeks, and it would have been forgotten. Instead, it is now unending. Watch, when the first DLC comes out for KSP2, however many years from now, people will be starting threads complaining about the fact that Subset X of users (pre-2013, owned KSP1, drive Yugos, whatever) didn't get it for free. Because Squad set a precedent.

I mean, yeah, I get it, nobody makes a mistake on purpose. Hindsight is 20/20. I'm just saying that if Squad had a time machine, some chloroform, and a bag of zip ties, this would probably be pretty high on their list of things to fix.

[MechBFP]

8 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

I don't think you remember the time they gave us weekly peeks at the development and participated in forum discussions, either

I assure you, I can remember last week just fine. I’m not that old yet!