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Radar

Can Steam Workshop be used for mods rather than just craft files (also KSP2 related).

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I've seen other games use the Steam Workshop for community mods, but I haven't seen it used for KSP at all, only for Craft files..

I'd like to see KSP 2 utilise the Steam Workshop better for Community Mods rather than just Craft files. Is this something that the developers have to set up in Steam or is this something users would categorise when uploading to the Workshop ?

If it is something that the developers need to set up in Steam, could you please consider a category for Mods for KSP 2. This will save users having to place the mod in the correct folder locations, missing parts etc.

By doing this it will also ensure that users who subscribe to the mod will receive updates automatically once available / released. Much better user experience in my opinion and works very well for other games. No more 'Where do I install the mod' or 'I've installed the mod but it's not working' (because it's likely in another subfolder.

From a users perspective, having mods located on Spacedock, the forums, Github and CurseForge is all too confusing, no one source is being used and therefore no consistency. With the game being on Steam, it makes more sense for mods (not just Craft files) to be here also. 

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6 minutes ago, Radar said:

I've seen other games use the Steam Workshop for community mods, but I haven't seen it used for KSP at all, only for Craft files..

I'd like to see KSP 2 utilise the Steam Workshop better for Community Mods rather than just Craft files. Is this something that the developers have to set up in Steam or is this something users would categorise when uploading to the Workshop ?

If it is something that the developers need to set up in Steam, could you please consider a category for Mods for KSP 2. This will save users having to place the mod in the correct folder locations, missing parts etc.

By doing this it will also ensure that users who subscribe to the mod will receive updates automatically once available / released. Much better user experience in my opinion and works very well for other games. No more 'Where do I install the mod' or 'I've installed the mod but it's not working' (because it's likely in another subfolder.

From a users perspective, having mods located on Spacedock, the forums, Github and CurseForge is all too confusing, no one source is being used and therefore no consistency. With the game being on Steam, it makes more sense for mods (not just Craft files) to be here also. 

I believe this question was asked to Nate and I can't recall an exact quite, but he said something along the lines of no answer which means they dont know yet.

Have steam be a place for mods would be good like you said, but as long as Steam workshop wasn't the only place. We all remember the Curse controversy... 

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Well that would be up to the creators if they wanted to be adding links in various different forums..

Personally if they implemented the mods through Steam Workshop then I'd be using this and only this. Far easier to manage and probably a far wider audience especially for the younger audience players where they are unlikely to be signing up to forums and more likely to enjoy the game more if the mods they want will work.

 

Oh and I don't think Steam Workshop will be anything like Curse and or if SpaceDock was to go down the same path.. If anything, Steam would be the more logical and safest place to be uploading and maintaining mods.

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13 minutes ago, Radar said:

Well that would be up to the creators if they wanted to be adding links in various different forums..

Personally if they implemented the mods through Steam Workshop then I'd be using this and only this. Far easier to manage and probably a far wider audience especially for the younger audience players where they are unlikely to be signing up to forums and more likely to enjoy the game more if the mods they want will work.

 

Oh and I don't think Steam Workshop will be anything like Curse and or if SpaceDock was to go down the same path.. If anything, Steam would be the more logical and safest place to be uploading and maintaining mods.

Well idk how it will work. CKAN is kind of like steam workshop without the auto update. I've had a little trouble with CKAN and just gave up on it. Steam might not be able to handle KSP mods. We'll have to wait and see how mods work in KSP 2.

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Problem is that the "official" way of having multiple installs will be copying the install folder and that doesn't work very well with the workshop.

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1 hour ago, Master39 said:

Problem is that the "official" way of having multiple installs will be copying the install folder and that doesn't work very well with the workshop.

You wouldn't be modding using the workshop if you're maintaining multiple installs; you would be using CKAN or manually adding them. Workshop would be more for entry-level/novice modders; who don't really feel confident enough. Me personally; i avoid the workshop like the black death. Too many ways for Steam to break my games already; no reason to introduce more.

The biggest issue with the Steam Workshop is that if implemented it would mean that KSP now wouldn't be DRM free; as steam API's and DRM is needed to do so. They could still make it plenty possible to maintain multiple installs/freely copy KSP even with it implemented, but by DEFINITION KSP2 would now have DRM. Which wouldn't fly with some people; this i see as the largest potential issue.

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1 hour ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Me personally; i avoid the workshop like the black death. Too many ways for Steam to break my games already; no reason to introduce more.

This is the main reason I dislike the current implementation of mods on workshop. I tend to grab things externally where possible but where it's not, I typically grab the mod from workshop and repack it as a local mod then unsubscribe.. This only works on games that have been designed to support both methods of mod install though.

 

1 hour ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

The biggest issue with the Steam Workshop is that if implemented it would mean that KSP now wouldn't be DRM free; as steam API's and DRM is needed to do so. They could still make it plenty possible to maintain multiple installs/freely copy KSP even with it implemented, but by DEFINITION KSP2 would now have DRM. Which wouldn't fly with some people; this i see as the largest potential issue.

I don't believe that is the case, Steamworks is modular to my knowledge. KSP has Steamworks integration on Steam but is still DRM free as are a number of other titles. Certain Paradox strategy games come to mind.

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As far as I am aware Steam workshop doesn't have a robust dependency system that would work for multiple installs.   That means anyone with a 1.6.1 or 1.3.1 RP-1 install and a 1.7.3 JNSQ install would have major problems, since they both require Kopernicus, which is version locked to the KSP version.

(Heck as far as I aware it still wants to provide the latest mod version even if you roll back to an earlier game version using the beta channels, which means that mod compatibility can become a major headache).

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12 hours ago, Radar said:

I've seen other games use the Steam Workshop for community mods, but I haven't seen it used for KSP at all, only for Craft files..

I'd like to see KSP 2 utilise the Steam Workshop better for Community Mods rather than just Craft files. Is this something that the developers have to set up in Steam or is this something users would categorise when uploading to the Workshop ?

If it is something that the developers need to set up in Steam, could you please consider a category for Mods for KSP 2. This will save users having to place the mod in the correct folder locations, missing parts etc.

By doing this it will also ensure that users who subscribe to the mod will receive updates automatically once available / released. Much better user experience in my opinion and works very well for other games. No more 'Where do I install the mod' or 'I've installed the mod but it's not working' (because it's likely in another subfolder.

From a users perspective, having mods located on Spacedock, the forums, Github and CurseForge is all too confusing, no one source is being used and therefore no consistency. With the game being on Steam, it makes more sense for mods (not just Craft files) to be here also. 

So you're saying that in order for myself to bring mods to the community I must use the steam workshop?

No, just no :confused:

This is one of the things that will make or break my want to port any of my mods over to KSP2

Forcing modders to use the steam workshop is a bad move since many of use don't use steam and some of those choose not to have anything to do with Valve ... let alone the fact that many KSP modders play on Linux and KSP2 isn't planned to be released on Linux immediately (if ever)

It may be easier for steam users doing this but creates more hassle for any given modder who doesn't want to contribute to the greed of Valve

I for one say no to steam workshop integration

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10 hours ago, DoctorDavinci said:

This is one of the things that will make or break my want to port any of my mods over to KSP2

Forcing modders to use the steam workshop is a bad move since many of use don't use steam and some of those choose not to have anything to do with Valve ... let alone the fact that many KSP modders play on Linux and KSP2 isn't planned to be released on Linux immediately (if ever)

It may be easier for steam users doing this but creates more hassle for any given modder who doesn't want to contribute to the greed of Valve

I for one say no to steam workshop integration

The developers have already said you won't be able to port the mods over. Given they are likely to be using PBR you will most likely need 4 x image files compared to KSP 1 of 2 or 3 (Diffues, Spec, Normals).. The cfg files are likely to change so again not a simple port.. 

Putting all that aside, I'm not suggesting 'forcing' modders to use the Workshop, I'm saying to add it. If modders want to use SpaceDock, Curse, Github or the forums to get their mod out there then go for it, but for many players (especially the younger gen, and no I'm far from young) they will not use these other sites to get mods from.. I know of other games that use the  Workshop without fail. The racing sim game has cars and tracks available to subscribe to and never once has it failed for them. A golf game I've played in the past had user created courses through the Workshop, again no failures. The only failures have been where the modder forgot to make a change, or add a texture and needed to be re-uploaded..

As I said, I'm not suggesting forcing modders, just giving them an extra place to get their mod out there. Not everyone is on these forums, or on Reddit, or search through Curse or SpaceDock etc.

Hassles, there are none other than a modder uploading to the workshop, no different to uploading to some share site really. As for greed of Valve, it's free to upload mods, and free to download if the modder hasn't added a cost to it. 

Edited by Radar

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15 hours ago, AVaughan said:

As far as I am aware Steam workshop doesn't have a robust dependency system that would work for multiple installs.   That means anyone with a 1.6.1 or 1.3.1 RP-1 install and a 1.7.3 JNSQ install would have major problems, since they both require Kopernicus, which is version locked to the KSP version.

(Heck as far as I aware it still wants to provide the latest mod version even if you roll back to an earlier game version using the beta channels, which means that mod compatibility can become a major headache).

The modder would need to stipulate such a thing in their mod descriptions, no different to what they do now in the forums by suggesting not to upgrade. You are right, it doesn't handle dependencies but again, something that can be mentioned in the description of the mod.

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1 hour ago, Radar said:

The developers have already said you won't be able to port the mods over

The developers said that there will be no porting tool or such to make it easy to port any given mod over to KSP2 ... not the same thing :wink:

As for the steam workshop, why? ... github works perfectly fine 

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10 hours ago, Radar said:

The modder would need to stipulate such a thing in their mod descriptions, no different to what they do now in the forums by suggesting not to upgrade. You are right, it doesn't handle dependencies but again, something that can be mentioned in the description of the mod.

That would still be problematic.  Firstly most people wont read the mod descriptions.  Of those who do read them, many will probably ignore/forget that detail.  But most importantly, Steam will insist on update the mod before letting you launch the game.  (Sure you can work around that by turning off your internet, but who would do that?  Probably only people who only install mods into a copy of KSP that isn't under Steams control anyway).

I would much rather see the devs a proper mod manager.  (eg something that provides a cutdown set of features similar to ckan).

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:42 AM, AVaughan said:

As far as I am aware Steam workshop doesn't have a robust dependency system that would work for multiple installs.   That means anyone with a 1.6.1 or 1.3.1 RP-1 install and a 1.7.3 JNSQ install would have major problems, since they both require Kopernicus, which is version locked to the KSP version.

(Heck as far as I aware it still wants to provide the latest mod version even if you roll back to an earlier game version using the beta channels, which means that mod compatibility can become a major headache).

One serious issue with Steam is that disable auto upgrades was pretty broken at last back with Fallout 4 and earlier in that it would often update even if told not to. 
This was an issue in Fallout 4 because of the script extender but it was updated pretty fast. It will also be an issue for KSP mods many who is not updated often or at all. 
Copying game out of steam is an option without DRM and solves this. 

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Let's be honest some of the most popular games out there have it to where you can download a mod straight from the  Steam workshop. So why is it chaos be like that why can we only download crafts from the workshop we already half a workshop and we already have mods so why don't we combine the best of both worlds.

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It wouldn't be the best of both worlds.  

Not everybody has purchased their game from Steam, there are other sellers.  Alienating a significant percentage of your user base would not go over well. 

Curse is also the 'official' mod hosting site for KSP.  (I believe that's still valid).  We have also have a number of other places that host mods.  Adding yet another source for mods would fracture the modding community even more, and possibly violate the contract Squad has with Curse. 

There have been a number of threads on this topic in the past, I would recommend looking them up for more discussion. 

EDIT: In fact, I have found a recent discussion on this topic, and have merged the threads together. 

 

Edited by Gargamel

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On 9/9/2019 at 8:49 PM, DoctorDavinci said:

The developers said that there will be no porting tool or such to make it easy to port any given mod over to KSP2 ... not the same thing :wink:

As for the steam workshop, why? ... github works perfectly fine 

Spoken like someone computer-savvy who's comfortable with modding games.  Just knowing what "github" is put you in rare company.  Admittedly, KSP is a niche game with heavy overlap with people who use git in their day job.  Still, Steam workshop is really great for people who don't know where Steam lands their game files in the first place.  It would open the use of mods up to a much broader crowd.

Personally, I'm hoping the question is moot and the base KSP2 is good enough where "basic quality of life" mods like KER won't be needed.  Heck, if they do it right, the common mod dependencies like Kopernicus and texture replacers won't be needed, as the base game will be sufficiently moddable.  Hey, a guy can hope.

Edited by Skorj

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