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===========================
REMODELED TECH TREE v.0.1.6
===========================

5WiIwt5.png

This is a customized Tech Tree designed to remodel the Stock and Community Tech Tree for a more challenging Science game while logically grouping related items into similar Nodes. Some Node titles and the tree structure were changed to reflect areas I felt were deficient or used poorly. Forty-three Mods are currently supported.

SpaceDock Link

To install, place the GameData folder inside your Kerbal Space Program folder. If asked to overwrite files, do so. Note this Mod does NOT replace any files in other Mods. To uninstall, simply delete the 'zzzRemodeledTechTree' folder and your Tech Tree will revert to as it was before.

This mod is only a Tech Tree and related icon files. It requires the correct version of Module Manager for your KSP version to function. It also requires Community Tech Tree as many of the icons used come from that Mod. This only supersedes CTT's tree structure and some names and descriptions.

NOTE: Because CTT is a dependency, none of the MM code in this Mod checks for its presence as it is assumed. Failure to install CTT with this Mod will result in a massive number of errors. Grounded is no longer a dependency by way of introducing two new parts to the game if you don't have Grounded installed... a Prototype QBE (2x the size, 20x the weight, 20x the EC requirement, 50km range for the internal antenna, and no SAS) and Prototype Z-10 battery. (same size and weight as the Z-100 but 1/10th the power) Both are made obsolete once you research Physics & Chemistry.

COMMUNITY TECH TREE AND MODULE MANAGER ARE BOTH REQUIREMENTS TO USE THIS MOD!

Additionally, it requires the Mods to support it for their parts to be added. I have included definitions only for those Mods I use frequently. If you wish to adapt this Mod for use with your own preferred Mods, simply add your own Module Manager re-definition lines for the parts you wish to move around the Tech Tree. Since I did not change the internal ID designations of any existing CTT or Stock nodes, unsupported Mods will still populate within the tree, just in odd places that may not make any sense given what parts are already there.

DLC NOTE: This Mod has NOT been balanced against either the Making History or Breaking Ground DLC and those parts, while still present in the tech tree, have not been moved to their corrected nodes. Unfortunately, short of me getting money from somewhere unexpected or someone providing me the internal CFGs of all the parts included in both packs, this will not be fixed any time soon.

List of 43 currently supported Mods: (all working under KSP v.1.7.3)

Aircraft Carrier Accessories v.1.5.1
AirplanePlus v.26.1
AlphaMensaes Modular Launch Pads v.2.0.4
AmpYear v.1.5.5.0
AviationLights v.4.0.8
BonVoyage v.0.5.3
Cormorant Aeronology v.1.5.1
Cormorant Aeronology - Mk3 Block II v.0.2
DeepFreeze v.0.26.0.0
Extraplanetary Launchpads v.6.6.1
FASA v.7.2.5
Feline Utility Rovers v.1.2.10
Firespitter v.7.13
Firespitter Extended Version 1
Grounded - Modular Vehicles v.5.0
HeatControl v.0.4.12
Heisenberg Airship Parts Pack v.2.16.1
Hooligan Labs Airships v.6.3.1
HullcamVDS Continued v.0.1.13
InfernalRobotics - Next v.3.0.2
IR Sequencer v.3.0.1_KSP_1.6
Its the little things v.2
KAS v.1.4
Kerbal Planetary Base Systems v.1.6.9
KIS v.1.22
KSP SDHI Strobeomatic v.1.0.1
Mandatory RCS Part Pack v.1.4_KSP1.7
MOARdVPlus v.1.0.0
Near Future Propulsion v.1.1.1
Near Future Solar v.1.0.4
OPT Spaceplane Parts (Lagacy) v.1.4.0
OPT Reconfig v.1.6.1
PEBKAC Industries Launch Escape System v.1.4.1.4
RasterPropMonitor v.0.30.6
RecycledParts-1.7.2 v.0.1.7
RN Skylab v.1.8.3
SCANsat v.18.13
SEP v.2.7.1
SmartParts v.1.9.13.8
Station Parts Expansion Redux v.1.2.1
SurfaceLights v.1.13
TacLifeSupport v.0.13.13

Note that dependencies for these Mods such as Community Resource Pack and others are not listed, nor are supported partless Mods like TweakScale or EVE.

The issue regarding the Recycled Parts Mod has been fixed and is working correctly, so no action is required on this now. Likewise, BonVoyage is now fixed so the upgrades are moved to their correct nodes.

Labs have also been re-balanced against one another to have a more realistic progression. (more advanced Labs yield more/less Science per point, use less power, operate faster, etc.)

Mobile Processing Lab (Squad) - Unchanged. All other Labs are noted relative to the Stock lab.
Manned Orbital Lab (FASA) - Heavier, Higher Science Cap, Faster Data Processing Rate (DPR), Higher EC/s usage
GondoLab (Heisenberg Airship) - Lighter, Portable, Lower Data Storage and Science Cap, Faster DPR, Higher EC/s use, Only 2-to-1 Science conversion
Big "G" Science Bay (FASA) - Lighter, Lower Data Storage and Science Cap, Faster DPR, Higher EC/s usage, Only 3-to-1 Science conversion
SPT-7 "Iglet" (Cormorant Aeronology) - Lighter, Lower Data Storage and Science Cap, Faster DPR, Lower EC/s usage, Only 4-to-1 Science conversion
SPB-HUGE-3 Science Bay (Recycled Parts / R&S CAPSULDYNE) - Heavier, Higher Data and Science Cap, Faster DPR, Higher EC/s, 6-to-1 Science conversion
Lynx Mobile Lab (Feline Utility Rover) - Lighter, Lower Data Storage and Science Cap, Much lower EC/s usage, Only 4-to-1 Science conversion
SPT-14 "Igloo" (Cormorant Aeronology) - Heavier, Faster DPR, Much lower EC/s usage
'Stail' Mobile Processing Lab (OPT Legacy) - Heavier, Higher Data and Science Cap, Much lower EC/s usage, 6-to-1 Science conversion
PXL-2 'Fate' D-S Lab Module (Station Parts Expansion Redux) - Heavier, Higher Data & Science Cap, Lower EC/s usage, 3x DPR, 6-to-1 Science conversion
Planetary Lab (Kerbal Planetary Base Systems) - 2x DPR, Much lower EC/s usage, 7-to-1 Science conversion
Planetary Central Hub (Kerbal Planetary Base Systems) - Heavier, Lower Data & Science Cap, 2x DPR, Much lower EC/s usage, Only 4-to-1 Science conversion

While the later labs may seem to be sort of OP, they are so far down the Tech Tree that by the time you get them you're going to NEED them as each Node starts to cost tens of thousands of Science each. (just getting the Fate lab requires at minimum 2,000 Science to unlock, not to mention the additional science needed to actually put it in orbit, which can be thousands of Science more)

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EXTRAS
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Within the RTT_MM_QOL_Mods.cfg file are several tweaks for some Mods that are put there for game balance purposes, but also some Quality of Life improvements to some parts. For an example of modification for game balance is the creation of 'soft dependencies' on some technologies that could otherwise be reached without following a logical path to get them. (such as removing the fuel from the K&K Nuclear Reactor and Centrifuge so you can't actually USE them without having researched the Nuclear Fuel Systems node, etc.) An example of one of the QOL modifications, if you have TAC Life Support installed, you'll note the addition of three new Containers and three new Hexcans to add Wastewater, Waste, and CO2 only containment for specialized uses. Also, if you also have TweakScale AND TACLS installed, this Mod hides the duplicate Containers and Hexcans for larger/smaller sizes, reducing build menu clutter. I also have implemented a new mechanic for handing entryCost to be equal to 3x part cost for all parts. (Extraplanetary Launchpads is excluded from this mechanic as it causes numerous errors. (known issue with this Mod)

I have included a customized version of the Community Tech Tree PNG file that has been completed and corrected for this Mod to easily show the remodeled tree structure outside of the game. It uses the same style and branching as the CTT version. (as a bonus, I have included a completed copy of the CTT tree PNG due to the fact that the one on the CTT page is incomplete and outdated in some places)

I have also included the XLS file that I created to quickly restructure the tree to my own tastes. You can open it in most any spreadsheet program (Excel, OpenOffice, etc.) and are free to use it to add additional Nodes, delete ones you don't like, alter the Science cost progression, or redefine Parent Nodes to your liking. It saved me quite a lot of work by putting everything on one page that I could search, edit, and modify in minutes rather than hours. NOTE: This file does NOT go in the KSP directory structure. Place it wherever you like for easy access or if you don't intend to use it, simply leave it in the ZIP file.

To use the spreadsheet, simply make the changes to the tree as you like on the 'Custom Tree' tab. You can review Node positions (though not branching) using the 'New Tree' tab to see the relative positions of your nodes. Finally you can use the 'Tech Tree Output' tab to copy-paste a completely new tree into a CFG file. The 'Unmodified Table' tab shows the default tech tree using the same format as the 'Custom Tree' tab for reference and the 'Old Tree' tab shows the default Node positions. I have not yet incorporated a tab to quickly edit the parts that populate within each node. (WIP)

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LOCALIZATION
============


This mod does not include localization support, and includes translations for English only. Since it erases the Stock and CTT titles and descriptions, existing Tech Tree Localization with those Mods are discarded. If anyone wants Localization support, provide me with translations for each tech node and I will try to add it at some point.

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NOTES
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I know it is not a 'best practice' to use FINAL directives in a distributed Mod, but since I need this tree structure to supersede tree modifications made by other Mods (i.e. OPT, Modular Launch Pads, Recycled Parts, etc.) and cannot predict what future Mods may include Tech Tree re-definitions, I have employed the FINAL directive to ensure that all Techtree node operations are run BEFORE this mod, then deleted, and finally replaced with the desired tree structure. The same applies to PART operations. (though I have included at least one FOR directive to properly index this Mod with Module Manager)

I have no intentions of altering this behavior. If you don't like it, feel free to change it in your own copy, but note that I will NOT provide support for installs that do not use the FINAL directive as I cannot predict what interactions any given Mod may have on the tree structure and PART locations after this Mod has been initialized.

Though Modular Launch Pads is not required for this Mod, the tree structure has been altered to include and fully incorporate the Tech Nodes of that Mod. Since it just used Stock icons, and I have subsequently replaced those with my own, no resources from that Mod are used or required.

Lastly, for those wanting to make changes to this Mod to suit their own style, I have included EVERY part (to the best of my ability) in the listed Mods within the RTT_MM_Part_Configs.cfg file, even if I didn't move it to a new node. In this way, so long as you know the internal name of the part you want to move, you can just search for it and do a cut-paste to its new node. Soon (hopefully) I will have this all automated and you'll be able to use the XLS file to restructure your parts within the Tech Tree to your liking using the XLS file and simply copy-paste the new part definitions from the spreadsheet. (I know that using a spreadsheet for this purpose is unusual and it would be better to just write an actual program to create the CFG files for you, but I'm a wife and mother and don't have time to code out a full program... and an XLS spreadsheet works and was quicker to make, so... there it is!)

=========================
LICENSING CC-BY-NC-SA-4.0
=========================


The contents of this pack are distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License
(http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/legalcode).

You are free to share and adapt the materials only for non-commercial purposes and when providing appropriate attribution.
Any derivatives must be distributed under the same license.

All new Icons are of my own creations based loosely on other's works posted publicly online over the past thirty years. No claim of originality should be inferred, but they are not direct duplicates of any work.

The 'Cutting-Edge Aeronautics' icon is from the OPT Reconfig produced by author JadeOfMaar and is used under the CC-BY-NC-SA-4.0 License.
No claim of ownership or original design is implied nor should be inferred.

Community Tech Tree produced by ChrisAdderley (aka Nertea) and is used under the CC-BY-NC-SA-4.0 License.

---

As Mods go, I know this isn't much, but I put a lot of work into it and thought that maybe others in the Community might find it useful, even if just to tear it apart and see how it works. Thoughts and opinions welcome. (unless you just want to be mean, in which case Jeb would like to have a word with you outside...)

Edited by RobertaME
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Holy boosters! How much work did you put into supporting this many mods from day 1?!

i am totally going to check this out soon ™!

ps. With regards to the spacetux folder, afaik MM can do nested folders, unless that somehow only works for expansions. 

NEEDS[SpaceTuxFolder/SpecificMod]

Re: FINAL usage, though I will respect your choice regardless; imo it’s better to use FOR or LAST and let the few mods that tinker after that be incompatible. Otherwise it’s just the same ‘race to Final’ that caused the before/for/after/last passes to be born.

Especially LAST[] exists for a reason. Anyone going there instead of FOR will have a very specific reason for it. 

Edited by Jognt
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4 hours ago, TheCiroth said:

You might need to remake the SpaceDock file. It is not in a folder, just directly into the game data folder. The zzzRemodeledTechTree folder wasn't captured when you made the zip. Many users will get confused if this isn't adjusted. 

Fixed and uploaded. Thanks for pointing it out!

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7 hours ago, Jognt said:

Holy boosters! How much work did you put into supporting this many mods from day 1?!

i am totally going to check this out soon ™!

ps. With regards to the spacetux folder, afaik MM can do nested folders, unless that somehow only works for expansions. 

NEEDS[SpaceTuxFolder/SpecificMod]

Re: FINAL usage, though I will respect your choice regardless; imo it’s better to use FOR or LAST and let the few mods that tinker after that be incompatible. Otherwise it’s just the same ‘race to Final’ that caused the before/for/after/last passes to be born.

Especially LAST[] exists for a reason. Anyone going there instead of FOR will have a very specific reason for it. 

Thanks for the kudos! It did indeed take quite a while to do... mostly spent in Notepad++ finding part names spread out through a few thousand CFG files. There has GOT to be a better way to do this! LOL!

Regarding the FINAL directive, unfortunately, several "must have" mods (well, must have for ME anyway) use the FINAL directive that would make them incompatible. Even naming the folder 'zzzRemodeledTechTree' and using the LAST directive still left several Mods using the FINAL directive themselves in their CTT support CFG files that kept moving parts back to their original location, (and AFAICS, none of the supported Mods make use of the LAST directive) so FINAL was necessary in order for Remodeled Tech Tree to work on all Mods. Bottom line is that it works, it's fully documented, and caused by a special case due to the nature of what this mod does.

I'll look into seeing if NEEDS can use nested directories, but based on the contents of the ModuleManager.log file, (which was invaluable in finding the right Mod names which have to be an exact match to work) I don't believe it will work. None of the sub-folders within SpaceTuxIndustries folder are showing up in the MM log. The Mod author would have to add a FOR directive to at least one part in each sub-Mod to properly support MM NEEDS directives. I could be wrong though.

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How does progression through the tree compare with stock speed? I usually play with science gains set to 20%-30% so that I don't max out the tree before leaving the Kerbin system and I am forced to visit other planets. Would you recommend lowering science gains at all with this?

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49 minutes ago, ddavis425 said:

How does progression through the tree compare with stock speed? I usually play with science gains set to 20%-30% so that I don't max out the tree before leaving the Kerbin system and I am forced to visit other planets. Would you recommend lowering science gains at all with this?

In test play, I found it difficult to progress quickly through the early tree, which was one of my main goals. Part of that is achieved through there being simply MORE tech nodes in the early tree. Stock KSP has only 10 nodes in the first three tiers totaling only 288 science to get them all and CTT only adds one more in the third tier for a total of 333 science to get all the nodes. By contrast, Remodeled Tech Tree has twenty-two nodes in the first three tiers totaling 550 science... and starting at the fourth tier the costs are double the last one. (50 sci for all 4th tier nodes, 100 sci for 5th tier, etc.) I did this because I found the early game too easy, the mid-game too hard, and the end-game too easy again. The other way early game progression is slowed is that all nodes in the first three tiers cost 25 Science points. Both of these, on top of the fact that a lot of the better technology has been moved much higher in the tree, combine to make the early game MUCH more challenging.

Another way to look at it is by Total Science; i.e. how much Science does it take to get the entire tree. Stock KSP you need only 18,468 Science points to get EVERYTHING spread out over 63 nodes. CTT helps by bringing that total up to 176,303 Science points over 145 nodes. RTT expands on that to require 237,700 Science points spread out over 165 nodes... which is 12.87 times the Science Points needed for Stock and 1.34 times the total for CTT.

One note: entryCost as used in the full career game to buy each new technology within a node is still WIP and most have a cost of 0 at this time. That requires considerably more time to work out a good balance for. (especially since some Modders gave this very little thought and the value used in their parts is whatever was in the CFG file they duplicated to make their part to begin with)

Hope this helps!

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1 hour ago, ddavis425 said:

Thanks, sounds to me like 100% science gain will be plenty challenging with this mod.

That was the entire point... make the Science game (my preferred method of play) more challenging while at the same time cleaning up the Tech tree so all the parts from various Mods all play together nicely by making sense where they are in the tree. Some Mod makers have very different ideas about how difficult each node in the tree is. For example, one author may think that Specialized Construction is REALLY hard to get to, so they place their uber-powerful part there... meanwhile another author thinks that node is relatively easy to reach, so they put their moderately capable parts there, which are instantly made obsolete by the first author's uber-part. In sorting the tree, I examined each part and its capabilities to see how it measured up to other parts, regardless of whether they were Stock or Mod, and ranked them all against one another to make them all 'fit' with one another on the same tree.

I also made a few tweaks to parts for game-play purposes... such as giving the Ant engine the highest Isp(v) of every chemical rocket in the game, thus giving it a niche use. (as it stood, the Ant was completely outclassed in almost every way by the Spider... and I sorta felt sorry for the little guy... especially with that horrid in-game description!) Lastly, I eliminated a lot of the instances of "the bigger/smaller version of this is in another Tech Node", unless there were compelling real-world examples of scaling requiring all new technology and techniques for that sort of thing.

Note: New version released. Apparently the first release copy was using a older copy of RTT_MM_Part_Configs.cfg that lacked the Infernal Robotics - Next parts... as well as a few corrections to missed or misplaced parts.

Edited by RobertaME
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Just an FYI... ModuleManager, since v3.0.7 allows defining subfolders:
 

Version 3.0.7

    NEEDS now allows subdirs (NEEDS[SquadExpansion/MakingHistory])

Also, if you use NotePad++ a lot, if you dont already know, Jadeof Maar has an *excellent* updated KSP language for it, here:

https://github.com/JadeOfMaar/NPP_KSPlang

Edited by Stone Blue
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15 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Just an FYI... ModuleManager, since v3.0.7 allows defining subfolders:
 

Version 3.0.7

    NEEDS now allows subdirs (NEEDS[SquadExpansion/MakingHistory])

Also, if you use NotePad++ a lot, if you dont already know, Jadeof Maar has an *excellent* updated KSP language for it, here:

https://github.com/JadeOfMaar/NPP_KSPlang

Thanks for the tip! I'll try and see if I can enable checking for those subfolders in the next day or two.

And yes, I have the KSP language file for NP++. It's an invaluable tool for modding! :wub:

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I'm working on a new mod, Modular Segmented SRBs.  There are multiple sizes of fuel segments, multiple sizes of motors and nosecones.

Currently the SRBs in the game occupy the following nodes:

Flea Start        
Hammer   Basic Rocketry      
Thumper    
General Rocketry
   
Kickback       Heavy Rocketry  
Sepratron I        
Precision Propulsion

My mod separates the fuel from the motors.  I'm just not sure if solid fuel segments belong in one of the Rocketry nodes, General Construction nodes.  I'm also wondering if the largest ones may belong in one of the Propulsion, Advanced Propulsion, or just to leave everything grouped in the rocketry nodes.

The nosecones will also be dependent on Survivability and Flight Control since they include Sepratrons, parachutes and SAS.

Comments & suggestions are welcome

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32 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Curious, how would a career game play out with this tech tree?

The Early game is a real challenge because normally the Science you can earn around KSC is enough to finish all three of the first tiers of research, but with RTT just getting the first tier takes 125 science which is most of the Science points available around KSC just getting Crew Reports and Soil Samples. Later it gets a little easier as by the time you reach the fourth tier techs the costs are much lower than stock. (50 per node instead of 90 per node) but as you progress it gets harder and harder to get up the next tier with costs doubling at each one. (so by the time you reach the final tier it's up to 25,600 Science)

The entryCost mechanic standardizes all costs to be equal to 3x the part cost, which I find to be challenging, but not impossible. (some entryCosts made NO sense... like the FL-R25 RCS Fuel Tank with an entry cost of 4600 when the part only costs 330) It led to many parts never being unlocked because it just wasn't worth it. I think the new mechanic works out pretty well, making cheap parts cheap to unlock and expensive parts VERY expensive to get.

11 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I'm working on a new mod, Modular Segmented SRBs.  There are multiple sizes of fuel segments, multiple sizes of motors and nosecones.

Currently the SRBs in the game occupy the following nodes:

 

Flea Start        
Hammer   Basic Rocketry      
Thumper    
General Rocketry
   
Kickback       Heavy Rocketry  
Sepratron I        
Precision Propulsion

My mod separates the fuel from the motors.  I'm just not sure if solid fuel segments belong in one of the Rocketry nodes, General Construction nodes.  I'm also wondering if the largest ones may belong in one of the Propulsion, Advanced Propulsion, or just to leave everything grouped in the rocketry nodes.

The nosecones will also be dependent on Survivability and Flight Control since they include Sepratrons, parachutes and SAS.

Comments & suggestions are welcome

Interesting idea! I would put early models (those with low thrust and/or low Isp) for both fuel and engines in the Rocketry branch together until you reach the first fuel branch at Fuel Systems, then separate fuel from engines. As for nosecones, since you're going to do something special with them (like have parachutes or separator motors pre-loaded in them) I'd agree that they should have their own research nodes, but I'd put them down the Construction branch instead of Survivability. (since they're used for SRBs, they don't actually aid in survivability or improved control... just resource conservation)

Hope this helps!

----

New version up with a few fixes and a re-balance of the Labs from those supported Mods that have them. (FASA, Planetary Surface Structures, Station Parts Expansion Redux, OPT Legacy, Cormorant Aeronology, Feline Utility Rover, Heisenberg Airships, etc.) Also a few bugfixes.

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Request: place the part stat (ant) changes in an optional/recommended folder and disable it by default. (Could use LGG’s PatchManager to toggle it)

This is to prevent confusion about saved craft no longer working or being more powerful than they should be in stuff like Reddit Challenges.

I doubt people would suspect a tech tree mod to make these changes. 

Or alternatively, add some text to the part description noting how it was changed. “RTT: Our scientists managed to miraculously increase ISP from the standard X” for example. 

Edit: Admittedly the current way is not with out precedent. See ReStock’s changes to the Oscar B tank. Regardless I love seeing things segmented. :) 

Edited by Jognt
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11 minutes ago, Jognt said:

Request: place the part stat (ant) changes in an optional/recommended folder and disable it by default. (Could use LGG’s PatchManager to toggle it)

This is to prevent confusion about saved craft no longer working or being more powerful than they should be in stuff like Reddit Challenges.

I doubt people would suspect a tech tree mod to make these changes. 

Or alternatively, add some text to the part description noting how it was changed. “RTT: Our scientists managed to miraculously increase ISP from the standard X” for example. 

Edit: Admittedly the current way is not with out precedent. See ReStock’s changes to the Oscar B tank. Regardless I love seeing things segmented. :) 

It already changes the description text to add "At least it gets good gas mileage." to indicate the change.

I honestly feel this change is needed, otherwise the Ant is effectively useless. Since it's available in the same node as the Spider, which has almost the same cost (110 vs. 120) and the same weight, but the Spider has an atmospheric TTW ratio 3.5 times that of the Ant. So with that in mind, why would anyone use the Ant? It's effectively useless and obsolete as soon as you get it and becasue it's node attached instead of radial attached, able to be used in far fewer circumstances. Given that, giving it better Isp(v) than any engine in Stock at LEAST gives it niche use. If someone wants to remove the effect, (or even just tone it down) it's easy enough to search for the word "Ant" in the CFG and delete the lines.

I do appreciate the feedback though! Thanks!

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1 hour ago, RobertaME said:

It already changes the description text to add "At least it gets good gas mileage." to indicate the change.

I honestly feel this change is needed, otherwise the Ant is effectively useless. Since it's available in the same node as the Spider, which has almost the same cost (110 vs. 120) and the same weight, but the Spider has an atmospheric TTW ratio 3.5 times that of the Ant. So with that in mind, why would anyone use the Ant? It's effectively useless and obsolete as soon as you get it and becasue it's node attached instead of radial attached, able to be used in far fewer circumstances. Given that, giving it better Isp(v) than any engine in Stock at LEAST gives it niche use. If someone wants to remove the effect, (or even just tone it down) it's easy enough to search for the word "Ant" in the CFG and delete the lines.

I do appreciate the feedback though! Thanks!

Uhm. My suggestion isn’t about whether it is needed. It’s about whether it’s expected

Regardless; your mod, your rules. 

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2 hours ago, RobertaME said:

Interesting idea! I would put early models (those with low thrust and/or low Isp) for both fuel and engines in the Rocketry branch together until you reach the first fuel branch at Fuel Systems, then separate fuel from engines. As for nosecones, since you're going to do something special with them (like have parachutes or separator motors pre-loaded in them) I'd agree that they should have their own research nodes, but I'd put them down the Construction branch instead of Survivability. (since they're used for SRBs, they don't actually aid in survivability or improved control... just resource conservation)

Interesting.  The reason I was thinking of survivability was the parachutes become available in survivability, and it's really the survivability of the craft.  Thoughts?

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3 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Interesting.  The reason I was thinking of survivability was the parachutes become available in survivability, and it's really the survivability of the craft.  Thoughts?

It comes down to a matter of interpretation. Additionally, there is only one (two if using CTT) Survivability node, which means to spread them out over multiple nodes of progression you would need to use other unrelated nodes. (such as Flight Control or Command Modules) The advantage of using the Construction tree is that you have many more nodes to use. Of course, this assumes that you WANT a progression. If you just want to put them all in the same node (or two) then Survivability would be as good a place as any. (though in Stock and CTT that does make them sort of easy to get to in the early game... and even under RTT Enhanced Survivability only takes 75 science points to reach)

My thinking stems from the flavor text used for Survivability and Enhanced Survivability that indicate the intent is to improve CREW survivability, not so much CRAFT survivability. (the exact lines are "The art and science of landing and walking away from it." and "Decrease the number of tearful goodbyes by increasing the survivability of our pilots.") But it just comes down to a matter of preference in the end... I can only tell you where I think they should go.

YMMV.

3 hours ago, Jognt said:

Uhm. My suggestion isn’t about whether it is needed. It’s about whether it’s expected

Regardless; your mod, your rules. 

Understandable. That's why I modified the flavor text... so it's notable. I also did the same thing on the Clamp-o-tron Jr. which under my Mod is NOT crew passable if you have Connected Living Spaces installed. (the part is physically smaller than a Kerbal, so they shouldn't be able to pass) The flavor text is altered from "kerbals need to hold their breath and wiggle to slip through." to "adult Kerbals cannot fit through the hatch... but they could pass snacks through. (or fuel hoses... or data tapes... you get the idea)"

Thank you for the compliment! I really appreciate it! :blush:

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I did a career playthrough with this and I suppose I wasn't expecting this tech tree to be geared towards players using a lot of modpacks. As a mostly stock parts player I found the start challenging, with the only thing I could do being to hop out of the capsule on the launch pad and run around getting science. Parachutes came a lot later than I would have liked and my first launch was only saved because somehow my SRB bounced instead of exploding when I hit the ground. After the first couple flights I started to unlock everything really quickly and I ended up having like 80% of all the parts before even going to Minmus.

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3 hours ago, ddavis425 said:

I did a career playthrough with this and I suppose I wasn't expecting this tech tree to be geared towards players using a lot of modpacks. As a mostly stock parts player I found the start challenging, with the only thing I could do being to hop out of the capsule on the launch pad and run around getting science. Parachutes came a lot later than I would have liked and my first launch was only saved because somehow my SRB bounced instead of exploding when I hit the ground. After the first couple flights I started to unlock everything really quickly and I ended up having like 80% of all the parts before even going to Minmus.

You would be correct in assuming that this is geared more for people to take advantage of the higher parts of the tech tree, much like CTT is, by taking advantage of Mods. A lot of the Stock parts are in fact in the lower nodes with the later nodes mostly filled with parts from Station Parts Expansion Redux, the Near Future Mods, Kerbal Planetary Base Systems, OPT, Feline Utility Rover, Heat Control, etc. That's why support was added for so many Mods from the start.

Just out of curiosity, which version did you play through? Was it before v.0.1.3 where I implemented the entryCost mechanic? That would make a career game WAY too easy as you wouldn't have to pay to unlock any parts. If you haven't gotten the 0.1.4 update I would recommend it as it made some good game balance fixes. Since I don't play Stock, I would be very interested in your perspective!

Thanks!

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54 minutes ago, Xt007 said:

Totally building a career mode around this mod! This is a big ask, but any plans to add interstellar extended support? :D

I would, as I used to use it and enjoyed it a lot, but the changes in the last few versions turned it into something that feels more like "Real Fuels lite" which I don't like and so I've dropped it in favor of the old Atomic Age Mod that is now part of the Recycled Parts Mod. The Atomic Age models are great, the designs are well balanced, and you don't need to overhaul your entire game with every tank basically getting the Modular Fuel Tanks Mod that I think breaks game balance too much. It was so much better when KSPIE was simple and elegant and just a parts Mod like back in version 1.3.1. I very nearly dropped Near Future Propulsion for the same reason... that it uses two new fuels, but since it handles them in their own fuel tanks like Xenon I found a way to make it work. (I actually did in fact drop Near Future Electrical due to the changes that it makes to the basic game functions of electrical power that over-complicate the game IMHO... which is a shame as it was a fun Mod to play with)

Even if someone gave me all the data for the current KSPIE in a ready-made MM patch, I don't think I could fit it into the existing tech tree re-configure as it makes too many changes to other parts because Interstellar Fuel Switch is now mandatory. (along with Interstellar Hybrid Rocketry and Filter Extensions... which is billed as "optional" but the game throws lots of errors if it's not there... and picking through a few thousand lines of MM code to re-balance it all would be a full-time job) I made a serious effort to get it to work, but it just doesn't fit with the stock parts and a lot of other Mods, unfortunately. Basically it fell by the wayside when Atomic Age was re-released as it did a lot of what I wanted out of KSPIE without the headache.

Thoughts welcome!

Edited by RobertaME
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Thank you for such a thoughtful response! I agree with you on kspie becoming a bit of a kluge as far as (un)necessary complexity.  I appreciate the suggestion of Atomic Age, never tried it so I’ll add that to the build for the career I’m planning around this mod.

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