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KSP 2= pc = BOOM

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When i think of KSP 2, my brain runs through all of the ways that my pc could possibly go BoOOm

so far, i think that it could probably have death by

-lag

-overheating

-crashing

-FREEZE

-fire [just joking]

-or just running out of battery

what do you think?

Edited by burn boi

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Unless there's something already wrong with your PC, the only real concern on that list would be lag or running out of battery if you're not plugged in. Overheating in modern machines generally manifests itself as lag since the chips slow down to reduce heat. Crashing/freezing could potentially happen due to driver issues. Fire is so unlikely that it's not even worth considering, your machine will hit thermal shutdown and turn off long before it gets hot enough to ignite anything.

 

At the end of the day, KSP is just a particularly demanding piece of software on the CPU side due to the physics, you could generate a more demanding load on the CPU/GPU using benchmark software.

Edited by Lord Aurelius

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13 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Fire is so unlikely that it's not even worth considering

it was a joke calm down boi

and i literally just got this pc and yes, it does have a good proceccer [idk how to spell]

When I run ksp it heats up a LOT tho

Edited by burn boi

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2 hours ago, burn boi said:

it was a joke calm down boi

Welcome to the internet. When you post things on a public forum, even jokes, especially not so obvious ones, and especially about things like KSP performance, on the KSP forum, you can expect answers like this. So, for you to respond immediately with 

2 hours ago, burn boi said:

calm down boi

after literally asking "what do you think?" makes me scratch my head. Also, welcome to the forums. I see you joined in May but have not participated very much since then. I hope your stay here is a little less abrasive going forward.

Edited by Galileo

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2 hours ago, burn boi said:

it was a joke calm down boi

and i literally just got this pc and yes, it does have a good proceccer [idk how to spell]

When I run ksp it heats up a LOT tho

However KSP killed the PC of one player, Wackjob who was famous for his insanely overbuild rockets. 
Yes PC's has protection systems but they are mostly designed around peak load, not 100% cpu load for hours laptops are specially vulnerable because the restricted cooling system. 
But heavy use will not kill your pc, but having an weak pc will give way more bugs. 

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25 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

PC's has protection systems but they are mostly designed around peak load, not 100% cpu load for hours

Two of my PCs run at 100% CPU load for 12+ hours compiling things, on a regular basis. If a machine can't perform to specification continuously, there's something wrong with it.

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34 minutes ago, steve_v said:

Two of my PCs run at 100% CPU load for 12+ hours compiling things, on a regular basis. If a machine can't perform to specification continuously, there's something wrong with it.

Depend on design, servers are designed for this. Laptops are not, at least not old and cheap ones.
But yes in part is us ancient ones remember the cooling in the server room died and this manage to wreck the server back in 98. 

Out of interest, what takes 12+ hour to compile? Yes rendering movies or even animations is this time consuming. 
qNOwWGO.gif

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnemoe

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6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Depend on design, servers are designed for this. Laptops are not, at least not old and cheap ones.
But yes in part is us ancient ones remember the cooling in the server room died and this manage to wreck the server back in 98. 

Out of interest, what takes 12+ hour to compile? Yes rendering movies or even animations is this time consuming. 
qNOwWGO.gif

 

 

 

 

That could be said for most things old and cheap; when corners are cut in the first place age just exasperates the potential issues. As for what he could be doing; if he has some large programming projects that could do it. Or he could have a script that just chugs thru multiple projects in the background.

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8 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Laptops are not, at least not old and cheap ones.

Then there's something wrong with them - namely being cheap and nasty.
Anything made ever should be able to run at full load continuously so long as the ambient temperature is sane, and anything made in the last 15 years should have thermal-throttling for when it's not...

Unless it's an Apple laptop of course, in which case it'll probably spontaneously combust if you look at it the wrong way. :rolleyes:
 

8 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Out of interest, what takes 12+ hour to compile?

No single project, at least not any more. Rebuilding an entire distro does though.
I remember single projects taking days, back when I was building LFS on a 486.
 

Edited by steve_v

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1 hour ago, steve_v said:

Then there's something wrong with them - namely being cheap and nasty.
Anything made ever should be able to run at full load continuously so long as the ambient temperature is sane, and anything made in the last 15 years should have thermal-throttling for when it's not...

Unless it's an Apple laptop of course, in which case it'll probably spontaneously combust if you look at it the wrong way. :rolleyes:
 

No single project, at least not any more. Rebuilding an entire distro does though.
I remember single projects taking days, back when I was building LFS on a 486.
 

Sadly this is the exception it seems now rather than the norm; there's 2500 USD+ dollar laptops that still thermal throttle hard under a steady load. And not just from off-brands; we're talking people like Asus,Acer,Dell,MSI,Toshiba,Lenovo who are well known and respected.

It's all because they've been chasing form factor and there's simply not enough space in most of these machines for circulation and fannage to remove the heat; let alone once the fins and fans get a layer of dust.

I still don't have much that can outperform my 4+ year old Sager DRT laptop in terms of thermals; rarely cracked 60C under load even running 24-36 Hours straight. But that was a machine with ~3lbs of copper and about 12lbs total; so plenty of room.

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2 hours ago, steve_v said:

Then there's something wrong with them - namely being cheap and nasty.
Anything made ever should be able to run at full load continuously so long as the ambient temperature is sane, and anything made in the last 15 years should have thermal-throttling for when it's not...

Unless it's an Apple laptop of course, in which case it'll probably spontaneously combust if you look at it the wrong way. :rolleyes:
 

No single project, at least not any more. Rebuilding an entire distro does though.
I remember single projects taking days, back when I was building LFS on a 486.
 

Understand, above animation took above 12 hour to render in hd. 

and yes poor quality is not only an computer issue remember my father buying an $50 angle grinder I was using it to cut paving stones, this worked well enough.
However as it was noisy and dusty I thought I could do 10 stones at once. This melted the plastic so it flowed into the electrical motor :)
Now here an thermal protection cutoff had been nice and would saved them money. 

1 hour ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Sadly this is the exception it seems now rather than the norm; there's 2500 USD+ dollar laptops that still thermal throttle hard under a steady load. And not just from off-brands; we're talking people like Asus,Acer,Dell,MSI,Toshiba,Lenovo who are well known and respected.

It's all because they've been chasing form factor and there's simply not enough space in most of these machines for circulation and fannage to remove the heat; let alone once the fins and fans get a layer of dust.

I still don't have much that can outperform my 4+ year old Sager DRT laptop in terms of thermals; rarely cracked 60C under load even running 24-36 Hours straight. But that was a machine with ~3lbs of copper and about 12lbs total; so plenty of room.

Thermal throttleing is not in it self an bad thing, very often the load is temporally and having an system with an peak performance is better than one without it. 
And yes the slim form factor has its obvious cost. 

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11 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Understand, above animation took above 12 hour to render in hd. 

and yes poor quality is not only an computer issue remember my father buying an $50 angle grinder I was using it to cut paving stones, this worked well enough.
However as it was noisy and dusty I thought I could do 10 stones at once. This melted the plastic so it flowed into the electrical motor :)
Now here an thermal protection cutoff had been nice and would saved them money. 

Thermal throttleing is not in it self an bad thing, very often the load is temporally and having an system with an peak performance is better than one without it. 
And yes the slim form factor has its obvious cost. 

Getting less performance than you paid for is never a good thing..

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7 hours ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

It's all because they've been chasing form factor

I really wish this thinness silliness would stop already, I'll gladly take a thicker form-factor if it means better thermal and battery performance. Likewise with smartphones.
Trouble is, hefty laptops and smartphones are hard to find and expensive because they are uncommon.  Repairable laptops and smartphones are the same, you have to pay extra for an off-brand or unusual model just to be able to get the case open.

 

6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Now here an thermal protection cutoff had been nice and would saved them money.

A thermal switch in the field windings is going to add a whole dollar to the cost of the machine. literally, the last one I installed cost one dollar.
Given how cheap thermal protection is, I can only assume that omitting it is just planned-obsolescence. The "just buy another one" attitude is everywhere.

Cheap garbage annoys me no end, not only because it always fails when it's needed most, but because the environmental impact of all that prematurely broken stuff going to landfill is both ridiculous and wholly unnecessary.

 

6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

having an system with an peak performance is better than one without it.

It is, if the consumer is aware of what they are buying. Most of the time they are not.
Relying on thermal-throttling and selling a machine on it's specs when it can't meet those specs continuously is bordering on false-advertising IMO.

 

5 hours ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Getting less performance than you paid for is never a good thing.

Yeah. This^.
To add insult to injury, laptops that live on thermal-throttling aren't going to live as long as those that don't. Just because your CPU can run at 90°C doesn't mean the components right next to it are happy.

 

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2 hours ago, steve_v said:

To add insult to injury, laptops that live on thermal-throttling aren't going to live as long as those that don't. Just because your CPU can run at 90°C doesn't mean the components right next to it are happy.

 

For laptops (or any PC really) that lives on poorly implemented thermal throttling, possibly. ALL PCs now (even giant DTR laptops and desktops) live on thermal throttling, which is why there's separate base and boost clocks for CPUs and GPUs. If well implemented, that throttling will maximize performance for a given TDP in intermittent load scenarios (i.e. normal everyday PC use with opening web pages and programs). During heavy sustained loads, ideally the parts will slow down to achieve an acceptable steady state temperature that won't result in overheating.

In a machine with poor cooling design that puts temperature sensitive components next to hotspots like the CPU/GPU with a potentially inadequate cooling system and throttling algorithm on top, then yes, reduced lifespan could be a real possibility.

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3 hours ago, Lord Aurelius said:

For laptops (or any PC really) that lives on poorly implemented thermal throttling, possibly. ALL PCs now (even giant DTR laptops and desktops) live on thermal throttling, which is why there's separate base and boost clocks for CPUs and GPUs. If well implemented, that throttling will maximize performance for a given TDP in intermittent load scenarios (i.e. normal everyday PC use with opening web pages and programs). During heavy sustained loads, ideally the parts will slow down to achieve an acceptable steady state temperature that won't result in overheating.

In a machine with poor cooling design that puts temperature sensitive components next to hotspots like the CPU/GPU with a potentially inadequate cooling system and throttling algorithm on top, then yes, reduced lifespan could be a real possibility.

This is an relevant point, desktops are normally not thermally throttled, turbo mode is dependent on max speed of cpu and power input, yes its thermal limits but its also set limits for the cpu unless an extreme edition or other unlocked cpu. 
And the ultimate edition cpu are the ones who perform bests in tests but its also dependent on marked, so you can get an cpu who works almost as well as an ultimate edition if lucky or one who fails if overclocked. yes some exploit free returns to farm for good drops. 
This is as old as Doom, remember  selling 25MHz 486 as 33MHz, 40 pushed the limit a lot but none of the 33 MHz users came back complaining, this also worked for DX2. 
Then Intel caught up on it :)

Current setup has water cooling with 2x12 cm fans on radiator and 3 fans 12 or 14 cm pushing in. The hard drives are more noisy than the fans. If I can hear the fans I have to pull out the vacuum cleaner :)
 

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5 hours ago, Lord Aurelius said:

For laptops (or any PC really) that lives on poorly implemented thermal throttling, possibly. ALL PCs now (even giant DTR laptops and desktops) live on thermal throttling, which is why there's separate base and boost clocks for CPUs and GPUs. If well implemented, that throttling will maximize performance for a given TDP in intermittent load scenarios (i.e. normal everyday PC use with opening web pages and programs). During heavy sustained loads, ideally the parts will slow down to achieve an acceptable steady state temperature that won't result in overheating.

In a machine with poor cooling design that puts temperature sensitive components next to hotspots like the CPU/GPU with a potentially inadequate cooling system and throttling algorithm on top, then yes, reduced lifespan could be a real possibility.

What you're missing is that the base clock on desktop GPUs is guaranteed to be hit given proper cooling; with the boost above being a bonus. So you're getting the performance you paid for plus boost; unlike these laptops which are often designed to throttle below the base clock.

But yeah; in most cases a GPU won't die from being hot (TJmax is often 95C+). It's going to die because the heat killed a VRM or capacitor prematurely and now 12v has a direct path to the  die. 

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6 hours ago, Lord Aurelius said:

ALL PCs now (even giant DTR laptops and desktops) live on thermal throttling, which is why there's separate base and boost clocks for CPUs and GPUs.

Mine don't. My desktops have sufficient cooling. If the machine is getting hot, the cooling system ramps up to keep the CPU/GPU running at full speed.
This is how it should be, it's not complicated to set up, and it allows me to run my CPU at it's maximum clock on all cores continuously.

I obviously don't expect such performance from a laptop, but I certainly do expect full base clock continuously without throttling. Throttling boost clock back down to the base clock based on thermals is fine, that's how it's supposed to work.

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4 hours ago, steve_v said:

Mine don't. My desktops have sufficient cooling. If the machine is getting hot, the cooling system ramps up to keep the CPU/GPU running at full speed.
This is how it should be, it's not complicated to set up, and it allows me to run my CPU at it's maximum clock on all cores continuously.

I obviously don't expect such performance from a laptop, but I certainly do expect full base clock continuously without throttling. Throttling boost clock back down to the base clock based on thermals is fine, that's how it's supposed to work.

Fair enough, if you've got a custom/botique gaming desktop with appropriate cooling then the clocks will always be at max boost even under load.

However, for the vast majority of PCs (including most desktops) the CPU and GPU will only run at max boost in lighter workloads, hit them them hard and they will heat up faster than the cooling can remove the heat and they will throttle. An average desktop CPU tops out at around 90W (lower TDP parts will potentially boost into this range as well briefly and throttle sooner, the TDP is a measure of average power), anything less than a high end air cooler/liquid cooling will have trouble keeping up with this rate of heat production under sustained load.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Fair enough, if you've got a custom/botique gaming desktop with appropriate cooling then the clocks will always be at max boost even under load.

However, for the vast majority of PCs (including most desktops) the CPU and GPU will only run at max boost in lighter workloads, hit them them hard and they will heat up faster than the cooling can remove the heat and they will throttle. An average desktop CPU tops out at around 90W (lower TDP parts will potentially boost into this range as well briefly and throttle sooner, the TDP is a measure of average power), anything less than a high end air cooler/liquid cooling will have trouble keeping up with this rate of heat production under sustained load.

That's the other issue; TDP doesn't actually reliably indicate the heat loads you're going to experience. This falls more on the manufactuers of the CPU's than anyone else though.

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7 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

That's the other issue; TDP doesn't actually reliably indicate the heat loads you're going to experience. This falls more on the manufactuers of the CPU's than anyone else though.

For custom desktops that may be true, in OEM systems the manufacturers have a lot of tuning parameters to play with to adjust the thermal behavior of the CPU to fit whatever cooling solution they've built into their design. End users can also tweak these with appropriate software utilities (had to do that on an ultrabook that insisted on bouncing the CPU between 100% and thermal slowdown mode under load without settling on a steady state in between).

But yes, the best way to get the thermal load is to actually measure it (or in the case of end users like ourselves, read CPU reviews where they measured it and tested with various coolers).

Edited by Lord Aurelius

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3 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said:

For custom desktops that may be true, in OEM systems the manufacturers have a lot of tuning parameters to play with to adjust the thermal behavior of the CPU to fit whatever cooling solution they've built into their design. End users can also tweak these with appropriate software utilities (had to do that on an ultrabook that insisted on bouncing the CPU between 100% and thermal slowdown mode under load without settling on a steady state in between).

But yes, the best way to get the thermal load is to actually measure it (or in the case of end users like ourselves, read CPU reviews where they measured it and tested with various coolers).

They just define a maximum TDP in BIOS and let the VRM/Fan solution figure it out between everything else in most cases; but you're completely correct this is more of an issue for custom/boutique builders.

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Another random point on this topic: throttling isn't inherently a bad thing. Running CPUs/GPUs beyond their cooling capacity for short periods of time has been one of the big reasons laptop/smartphones (and many SFF desktops) have the performance they do. It allows them to have the performance of a much more powerful processor for a short period of time without the corresponding increase in cooling weight/bulk/cost, and for many workloads (web browsing, application loading, etc) there's plenty of downtime between tasks that the end user sees their machine performing much better than it would if the CPU were limited to what the cooling system could actually cool at steady state.

Same goes for a beefy custom cooling solution, it's great that you can run max boost constantly, but how much more performance could you get in tasks that don't 100% load your hardware (i.e. most games that aren't KSP) if you allowed it to boost beyond even what your crazy cooling system can handle (in other words, what overclocking does)?

Edited by Lord Aurelius

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1 hour ago, Lord Aurelius said:

Another random point on this topic: throttling isn't inherently a bad thing. Running CPUs/GPUs beyond their cooling capacity for short periods of time has been one of the big reasons laptop/smartphones (and many SFF desktops) have the performance they do. It allows them to have the performance of a much more powerful processor for a short period of time without the corresponding increase in cooling weight/bulk/cost, and for many workloads (web browsing, application loading, etc) there's plenty of downtime between tasks that the end user sees their machine performing much better than it would if the CPU were limited to what the cooling system could actually cool at steady state.

Same goes for a beefy custom cooling solution, it's great that you can run max boost constantly, but how much more performance could you get in tasks that don't 100% load your hardware (i.e. most games that aren't KSP) if you allowed it to boost beyond even what your crazy cooling system can handle (in other words, what overclocking does)?

Throttling below stock is the only thing i don't like ; Systems like GPUBOOST or Intel TurboBoost aren't my issues. My Big old DRT could actually sustain the max Turbo speeds indefinetly; so it actually can become a pseudo-overclock if the cooling solution allows it. Which is fantastic; the chip makers always will have more information on how far each dial (Voltage, heat, etc.) can be turned before it becomes an issue.

And my DRT wouldn't have had the great performance it did otherwise.

Edited by Incarnation of Chaos

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:38 PM, burn boi said:

When i think of KSP 2, my brain runs through all of the ways that my pc could possibly go BoOOm

so far, i think that it could probably have death by

-lag

-overheating

-crashing

-FREEZE

-fire [just joking]

-or just running out of battery

what do you think?

Well... uhm. It all depends on your specs I guess. 

But I think Nate already adressed in an interview they are on top of things when it comes to optimisation. So, we'll have to just wait and see I guess.

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just make sure your power supply can handle the abuse you are going to throw its way. 

*debates whether or not my 2 year old sfx650w psu can handle an rtx2080*

holesntly this supply has been rock solid since i got it. but im going to be adding another 100 or so tdp to the system. 

Edited by Nuke

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