Ideal career mode

[mcwaffles2003]

So raw performance aside, what I really hope to see improvement on in KSP 2 is a better, more thought out, career/progression mode. I feel like it's a general consensus that the current career mode is lacking in direction giving and any form of incentive structure. It's merely pick what missions so happen to coincide with your next science gathering mission is to get cash out of it. Any form of incentive to really build a base on another planet is absent aside from just self amusement and seeing how far you can really push yourself. Essentially what I'm getting at is there is a lack of necessity to expand and colonize. So career mode just comes off as sandbox mode with restrictions until you unlock all the science and have a huge wallet. Then its just sandbox mode, it doesn't really add much to the experience IMO. 

So I have made this thread to find out where everyone stands on this specific part of the game.

Overall in the new KSP I would hope for a similar beginning missions structure (progression missions) that evolves into a more practical business structure that coincides with learning more mechanics as well as their nuances. Also, I'd like a reason to go to other planets aside from the thrill of exploration. I feel that sounds callous, but without clear goals and no benefit for doing so, I personally feel less incentive to to make it to every moon in a system. Albeit once planets/moons are given much better terrain detail pure exploration will give a greater reason to go visit them.

Basic progression mechanism:

Learn how to assemble rockets and basic controls

Advance piloting controls

Learn to get to orbit

Advance navigation skills in orbit (orbital rendezvous and reaching extra terrestrial bodies)

Get a foothold on staying in space for long durations with orbital space stations and extra terrestrial bases

Exploit unique natural resources to build from these new bases and advance the capabilities of technologies with new found resources

(unique resources are required to build specific parts, thus incentivizing off planet colonization)

Build from these outposts as a means of reaching further bodies which will, themselves, have unique materials to exploit, garnering reason to colonize them

 

Perhaps this could be considered reality breaking of some sort along the logic of "What unique material could be hidden away on other planets that arent available to be manufactured on kerbin?"

But if that could be put aside I really think it would make progressing in the game more meaningful and captivating. No longer is there simply a tech barrier wherein you visit the Mun, Minmus, and Duna with a variety of experiments and essentially unlock the whole tech tree, leaving the only incentive to be "go explore" as if you were playing in sandbox from the start.

 

If anyone has any other career mode mechanisms or recommendations please share as I really feel this is the one place KSP missed the mark.

[Zarkov2]

For me, "satellite" and "satellite repositioning" are quite different for some reason. I enjoy building and launching the occasional satellite, but I never do the repositioning missions. I'm guessing since, well, there is no building and launching a satellite.

[tseitsei89]

Hopefully KSP2 will have some more advanced fuels and/or materials that you can't just purchase from VAB (except in sandbox mode) but you have to set up colonies in interesting locations and make those big enough so they can mine and refine those so you can use them. That would be an interesting and natural mechanic to make base building more interesting/necessary.

[mcwaffles2003]

10 minutes ago, Zarkov2 said:

For me, "satellite" and "satellite repositioning" are quite different for some reason. I enjoy building and launching the occasional satellite, but I never do the repositioning missions. I'm guessing since, well, there is no building and launching a satellite.

I liked setting up a relay network when disabling comms from anywhere but KSC because i saw the use in it and I like setting up comms sats around other bodies. After that  I didnt see much reason for the sats I was launching but the $ you get from them was good so it filled a large amount of time in my career mode experience.

I think it would be cool if we had sat missions like hubble, kepler, JWST,  etc... where we used telescopes to explore and discover bodies to visit. Instead of having a map with all the bodies already discovered and mapped i think it would be cool to use telescopes like this to map out the kerbolar system and find where the other systems are to even get to them

Edited October 16, 2019 by mcwaffles2003
typo

[Zarkov2]

I voted tourism as one of the most enjoyable. However, I must admit that once I had visited other planets and those got added to the randomized destinations, I couldn't be bothered with doing them anymore. They become a bit much at that point IMHO. But visiting Mun and Minmus was fine, and made a good profit.

[Guest]

In the first KSP bases and station often means kraken attacks and low FPS, that's why I think the devs purposefully disincentivized them.

The new KSP will have a whole new layer of colonies, orbital shipyards, planetary mining stations and whatever the giant dishes and domes in the trailer are supposed to do.

We will already have reasons to build bases and stations so I'm convinced that the new "Progression mode" will be centered around that an not around porting the actual contract system that's barely more than a placeholder as it is.

The fact that they have yet to decide how much give to the player in the sandbox mode while avoiding spoilers make me think that the progression will have a well thought gameplay.

[mcwaffles2003]

8 hours ago, Master39 said:

We will already have reasons to build bases and stations

Aside from an orbital station around kerbin to avoid sea level ISP and kerbins gravity well and maybe another at the edge of the solar system to avoid kerbols gravity well Im not so sure. I havent heard anything yet to incentivize building colonies aside from the fact that its a new mechanic and "go explore". Building a base on a planet as a science outpost is nearly pointless as once all the science in the area is discovered that base becomes near useless. Im hoping colonies have a grander purpose overall, but so far I havent heard any hint to that reason.

 

8 hours ago, Master39 said:

The fact that they have yet to decide how much give to the player in the sandbox mode while avoiding spoilers make me think that the progression will have a well thought gameplay.

I suspect they're debating whether or not to allow spawning outside kerbin, but thats blatant speculation on my part

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Aside from an orbital station around kerbin to avoid sea level ISP and kerbins gravity well and maybe another at the edge of the solar system to avoid kerbols gravity well Im not so sure.

Colonies, resource mining, launch sites, orbital shipyards and advanced fuel refineries are good reasons to build bases and stations.

 

39 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I suspect they're debating whether or not to allow spawning outside kerbin, but thats blatant speculation on my part

I think the phrase was something like "there are late game tech that we'll prefer not to spoil", specifically geared towards parts and mechanics that need to be unlocked through gameplay, my speculation goes for the possibility of spawning the advanced fuels from the KSC vs the need of refining them after obtaining the facilities through colony evolution.

[mcwaffles2003]

20 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Colonies, resource mining, launch sites, orbital shipyards and advanced fuel refineries are good reasons to build bases and stations.

Theyre not so much reasons as components to a colony/station. Aside from better positions in gravity wells why establish all of these things in the first place?

 

26 minutes ago, Master39 said:

I think the phrase was something like "there are late game tech that we'll prefer not to spoil", specifically geared towards parts and mechanics that need to be unlocked through gameplay, my speculation goes for the possibility of spawning the advanced fuels from the KSC vs the need of refining them after obtaining the facilities through colony evolution.

I like the idea of locking sandbox mode components behind progress made in progression mode to keep aspects of the game hidden until discovered. specifically about the "possibility of spawning the advanced fuels from the KSC vs the need of refining them after obtaining the facilities through colony evolution." I really hope that this mechanic is present, its about the only mechanic I can think of to incentivize building colonies other than just a "build a colony at x" mission and pre-escape a gravity well.

[tseitsei89]

28 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Theyre not so much reasons as components to a colony/station. Aside from better positions in gravity wells why establish all of these things in the first place?

As I said earlier in this topic, maybe you cant find all advanced fuels/materials on Kerbin and you need to mine and refine those elsewhere in order to be able to use lategame engines and such...

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, tseitsei89 said:

As I said earlier in this topic, maybe you cant find all advanced fuels/materials on Kerbin and you need to mine and refine those elsewhere in order to be able to use lategame engines and such...

Sorry I typically respond in-line so I should have redacted that after noticing it in my second line of response where I agreed with you. My apologies

[shdwlrd]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

like the idea of locking sandbox mode components behind progress made in progression mode to keep aspects of the game hidden until discovered.

I've never liked that kind of sandbox mechanic, I don't want to mess around with the progressive system just to mess around with new parts of the game.

If you want to lock in my starting point, fine. If you want me to discover the position of something, fine. Just don't limit my ability to do/use something because I haven't "unlocked it."

Edited October 16, 2019 by shdwlrd
Clarifying my thought

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

I like the idea of locking sandbox mode components behind progress made in progression mode to keep aspects of the game hidden until discovered. specifically about the "possibility of spawning the advanced fuels from the KSC vs the need of refining them after obtaining the facilities through colony evolution." I really hope that this mechanic is present, its about the only mechanic I can think of to incentivize building colonies other than just a "build a colony at x" mission and pre-escape a gravity well.

I'm probably reading between the lines a bit too much but It seems to me that It's already confirmed that advanced fuels will be manifactured/refined in colonies or stations and that specifically colonies will have new tech available through expansion.

To me anyway building colonies is a goal on it's own, it doesn't need to be useful to do something, only to be well integrated with the rest of the gameplay.

[mcwaffles2003]

Just now, Master39 said:

I'm probably reading between the lines a bit too much but It seems to me that It's already confirmed that advanced fuels will be manifactured/refined in colonies or stations and that specifically colonies will have new tech available through expansion.

To me anyway building colonies is a goal on it's own, it doesn't need to be useful to do something, only to be well integrated with the rest of the gameplay.

I'm really hoping that's the case, as I said earlier that I know it sounds callous but I'd just like a greater reason for colonies to exist beyond they are a new mechanic in the game and go explore. I guess I'm hoping on the broader scale for the ability to somewhat make a space civilization

 within the game that heavily depends on the ability to create vehicles and accurately navigate space for it to be successful with some interdependence between colonies.

For instance:

Colony 1 has been built to require materials A, B, and C while colony 2 has been built to require materials B, C, and D 

Colony 1 has an abundance of D and colony 2 has an abundance of A

this is a very crude overall concept and I can see just logistically transferring resources between colonies getting old but I'm hoping the general idea gets across where there is a real incentive to creating these stations and personally, I hope theyre useful in the greater scope of a campaign

[Xd the great]

9 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

For instance:

Colony 1 has been built to require materials A, B, and C while colony 2 has been built to require materials B, C, and D 

Colony 1 has an abundance of D and colony 2 has an abundance of A

KSC should be able to make all A, B, C, D, albeit at more expensive prices.

[mcwaffles2003]

3 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

KSC should be able to make all A, B, C, D, albeit at more expensive prices.

As I stated before I get this argument:

On 10/16/2019 at 12:22 AM, mcwaffles2003 said:

Perhaps this could be considered reality breaking of some sort along the logic of "What unique material could be hidden away on other planets that arent available to be manufactured on kerbin?"

But  I feel This wouldn't incentivize colonization so much as incentivize taking on more tedious money grab missions to fund the few orbital stations you've already set up. Why bother making another colony when you can afford to just build youre ship where youve already set up a station? Unless the cost difference is made so wildly great that it's essentially impractical to build those things at KSC anyway... like $1,000/unit fuels or parts that cost >$500,000

Honestly I hope the game can work to move away from $ as the one true resource and go toward direct resource acquisition and refinement. Each colony could host its own colony with its own set of productivity filling resource caches which could be used to manufacture parts for spacecraft

[Xd the great]

46 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Unless the cost difference is made so wildly great that it's essentially impractical to build those things at KSC anyway... like $1,000/unit fuels or parts that cost >$500,000

Honestly I hope the game can work to move away from $ as the one true resource and go toward direct resource acquisition and refinement. Each colony could host its own colony with its own set of productivity filling resource caches which could be used to manufacture parts for spacecraft

Yep, that is my point. Make stuff expensive, but not that expensive. Someone wants to build everything from Kerbin? Fine. But that comes at a cost of money and time. Someone wants to build somewhere else? No problem. But you need to build a base.

Perhaps either make it cost $2,000,000 per inter solar system transfer for late game colonizing ships, or make mining on Kerbin time consuming (as in 100 years worth of wrap).

Each planet should have a very small amount of all resources to implement this. Maximum flexibility, and you can do whatever you want.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Xd the great

[mcwaffles2003]

19 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

Yep, that is my point. Make stuff expensive, but not that expensive. Someone wants to build everything from Kerbin? Fine. But that comes at a cost of money and time. Someone wants to build somewhere else? No problem. But you need to build a base.

Perhaps either make it cost $2,000,000 per inter solar system transfer for late game colonizing ships, or make mining on Kerbin time consuming (as in 100 years worth of wrap).

Each planet should have a very small amount of all resources to implement this. Maximum flexibility, and you can do whatever you want.

I can see something like that working. Possibly give different planets different abundances for different materials or even lock abundances down to regions on a planet. Material abundance could inversely affect the cost of parts that require that resource.

22 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

Perhaps either make it cost $2,000,000 per inter solar system transfer for late game colonizing ships

Care to flesh out what you mean here? Also, do you have an opinion on how to carry out resource transfer between colonies? Should resource transfer be a thing? I ask because currently the prospect of mining colonies is an IRL a motivator to capitalize on space travel

[tseitsei89]

2 hours ago, Xd the great said:

Yep, that is my point. Make stuff expensive, but not that expensive. Someone wants to build everything from Kerbin? Fine. But that comes at a cost of money and time. Someone wants to build somewhere else? No problem. But you need to build a base.

Perhaps either make it cost $2,000,000 per inter solar system transfer for late game colonizing ships, or make mining on Kerbin time consuming (as in 100 years worth of wrap).

Each planet should have a very small amount of all resources to implement this. Maximum flexibility, and you can do whatever you want.

No no no no. All resources should NOT be found on all planets (and definitely not be "buyable" from ksc or be mineable on kerbin). That would make building bases useless once again like in ksp1. There needs to be some advanced resources that you can ONLY get by colonising other celestial bodies. That way you have an actual reason to build cool bases.

[paul23]

I find neither enjoyable since it's all too easy after doing it once. And even before doing it once it's easy if you just learn a bit about rocket design.

 

Contracts should be much more fine tuned in rewards so that you have to be clever about contracts to make a profit. Also the rewards need to be much more balanced so that you don't always do the same type that is "profitable anyways.". - Or there needs to be "some contracts you are forced to do, lest you get a negative reputation if you don't do them immediately".

[Xd the great]

2 hours ago, tseitsei89 said:

No no no no. All resources should NOT be found on all planets (and definitely not be "buyable" from ksc or be mineable on kerbin). That would make building bases useless once again like in ksp1. There needs to be some advanced resources that you can ONLY get by colonising other celestial bodies. That way you have an actual reason to build cool bases.

And if certain resources can only be found on ceetain planets, you get other who complain about they are forced to build bases.

This is why every resource should be found everywhere, but at different amounts. Make it extremely expensive/time consuming to get required materials at the wrong place. Then you get motives to build bases, but you can still play however the way you want.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Xd the great

[paul23]

56 minutes ago, Xd the great said:

And if certain resources can only be found on ceetain planets, you get other who complain about they are forced to build bases.

This is why every resource should be found everywhere, but at different amounts. Make it extremely expensive/time consuming to get required materials at the wrong place. Then you get motives to build bases, but you can still play however the way you want.

That would only work if time skip wasn't available. Now you can just "set time to 1m times normal speed and watch resources fill".

[tseitsei89]

1 hour ago, Xd the great said:

And if certain resources can only be found on ceetain planets, you get other who complain about they are forced to build bases.

This is why every resource should be found everywhere, but at different amounts. Make it extremely expensive/time consuming to get required materials at the wrong place. Then you get motives to build bases, but you can still play however the way you want.

As already stated, with timewarp it doesnt matter if the extraction process takes 1day or 100years. You can just warp until you have enough. Some kind of lifesupport requirement might fix this.

Another problem is that if you make slightly more expensive/time consuming it will still be faster/cheaper than building a completely new base. And if you go the other way and make it very expensive people will still feel that they are forced to build bases.

Ofcourse in sandbox everything can be readily availible in VAB so you can play that if you dont want to expand your space program to other planets/systems but would rather fly whatever missions you want...

Edited October 17, 2019 by tseitsei89

[mcwaffles2003]

5 hours ago, paul23 said:

Contracts should be much more fine tuned in rewards so that you have to be clever about contracts to make a profit. Also the rewards need to be much more balanced so that you don't always do the same type that is "profitable anyways.". - Or there needs to be "some contracts you are forced to do, lest you get a negative reputation if you don't do them immediately".

Please no. that sounds like even more of a grind than it already is. The last thing I want is a forced mission to pop up that tells me I have to scan 5 anomalies 2000 km away and 30 km apart from each other. I feel contracts have a place in this game but we should be trying to move away from most of them instead of making them more essential.

 

4 hours ago, Xd the great said:

And if certain resources can only be found on ceetain planets, you get other who complain about they are forced to build bases.

Is that a very negative thing? So long as there is a variety of planets with the needed resource you have choice in where/how to build your base. Also the timewarping tseitsei89 mentions is a good point and circumvents any abundance restriction that would slow mining operations. Unless we make timewarping have some overall negative impacts which would ruin interstellar travel most likely.

 

Heres some examples for what I see as practical mining locations to find specific resources:

Uranium ore for pulsed fission propulsion engines - Mined at many places, including kerbin, but not found at the KSC (implies building 1st colony on kerbin near a uranium resource)

Metallic Hydrogen for metallic hydrogen engines- Mined at gas giants 

Lithium crystals and He-3 for inertial confinement fusion engines- Mined at terrestrial planets in the outskirts of solar systems where lighter elements are more abundant

 

This moves with a general progression where the further out into the solar system you make it the more advanced of engine technologies you are able harness. This kind of pattern would incentivize pushing yourself further and further to the systems outer reaches where you can stage from here to finally utilize interstellar travel from a location already far out on Kerbols gravity well

[paul23]

Then what *goal* is there?

 

There is sandbox mode if you don't care about goals. I wish to play a kerbal space program. When you start a space program you also have to think about "hmm I made a heavy lifting rocket, now I have to lift satellite A which give me minimal profit. But I can also squeeze in a few cubesats to improve the margins....".