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Never recompile anything without asking (aparently this is now a discussion about what I did wrong).


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1 minute ago, linuxgurugamer said:

As long as you take it down once I release the update, go ahead.  For the ShowFPS mod, i give  you permission to release it as an unofficial release using the same same, in the mod thread.  It’s such a simple mod, I’ll accept the small risk of requests for help on the thread, I would appreciate you keeping an eye on the thread and responding to those.

I planned on renaming it actually.  Keeps support separate and then taking it down isn't really strictly needed (though I'd probably remove the links just cause who needs an old build).

Credit issued of course.  And I could use your thread.  Think of it as a separate bleeding edge "branch" with me as the guy you can point at.

1 minute ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the modders notes state that OpenGL in no longer supported?

It may not be supported on Windows, but it works.  It has to.  Linux uses it.

Edited by R-T-B
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1 hour ago, R-T-B said:

Scatterer will remain up and supported until...  objections.  It will get a rename and scrub during which it will be briefly down however.

I'll be posting new projects here really soon, including scatterer.  It will be one of the first, like minutes.

@Snark, this sound good to you?  I'll be doing it soon if you don't chastise me, so don't say you weren't warned...

Will the new name be different enough that someone googling for support won't end up on the "real" Scatterer thread?  As long as that's the case, and as long as you've scrupulously followed the terms of Scatterer's license (including giving credit / linking to the original), and as long as you adhere to the add-on posting rules for the forum, then I think you may be in the clear... though I gotta say that the idea still kinda makes me twitch, a little.  I'm not sure what the implications are for compatibility with other mods (including visual f/x mods that provide their own configs), the possibility for injecting confusion there (e.g. suppose people start making configs that turn out to be compatible with your thing but not with the update that blackrack eventually releases, or vice versa).

However... is there some reason you have to be in such an all-fired hurry?  1.8 came out literally just a few days ago, and this seems awfully quick to be turning another mod loose in the ecosystem just because the last one hasn't updated yet-- why not give modders a grace period of at least a few weeks to put something out themselves?

To be clear:  as long as you're not breaking forum rules or legal license provisions, then you're within your rights to post what you want here.  But I'm still not convinced that it's a great idea or that it is guaranteed not to cause problems down the road.

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5 minutes ago, Snark said:

Will the new name be different enough that someone googling for support won't end up on the "real" Scatterer thread?

Take a look at my repos and tell me:

Github R-T-B

untitled191.png

No binaries right now.  Try and identify them.  Without cheating.

5 minutes ago, Snark said:

However... is there some reason you have to be in such an all-fired hurry?

Is retired, bored, and liking a challenge provided it helps others a bad reason?

Quote

why not give modders a grace period of at least a few weeks to put something out themselves?

The entire point is and remains, to forward potential bugs to the original authors in a testing context.  Heck, maybe I'll even fix something.  Maybe I already have.  Anything is possible.

Edited by R-T-B
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6 minutes ago, BigFatStupidHead said:

I like those repository names.  :PBut shouldn't it be Skedaddler?

Good idea but no way I'm renaming everything again... you have no idea how painful that was.  I even had to make a config symbolic linker for people to use my builds with old scatterer configs... lol

This one made it to release, that's probably all for today.  I'll probably get two adopted per day from that list until done.  It's a lot of work just to rename them, and then I want to actually get to bug fixing, so adopting them all at once is a bad idea.

Edited by R-T-B
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most case such recompile or "community fix" posted in the comment of the thread, which causes less user complaints to original modders(because by its nature it would be hard to find after a flood of replies so only a person who bother to read can find it later on) thus more acceptable along modders 

Edited by ssd21345
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Renaming mods that work as platform for other sub-config mods to work on top of them is a terrible idea as it pretty much negates all Module Manager compatibility. All visual mods are set up to look for Planetshine, Scatterer and DistantObjectEnhancer not MyPlanetShiny, Skedaddle and FarAwayStuff. This proprietary act just leads to more work and aggregation to not only the modders that build on top of these mods but also for the end users who try to install the mods without realising the changes being made.

Edited by Poodmund
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9 hours ago, ssd21345 said:

most case such recompile or "community fix" posted in the comment of the thread, which causes less user complaints to original modders(because by its nature it would be hard to find after a flood of replies so only a person who bother to read can find it later on) thus more acceptable along modders 

Exactly. You generally don't go out and make a thread of your own for this, it's best practice to contribute in the thread of the mod(s) in question. I think that's what people do for forks of KER and such.

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14 hours ago, Poodmund said:

Renaming mods that work as platform for other sub-config mods to work on top of them is a terrible idea as it pretty much negates all Module Manager compatibility. All visual mods are set up to look for Planetshine, Scatterer and DistantObjectEnhancer not MyPlanetShiny, Skedaddle and FarAwayStuff. This proprietary act just leads to more work and aggregation to not only the modders that build on top of these mods but also for the end users who try to install the mods without realising the changes being made.

Yeah, I realized that.  Tried to treat the symptoms with symbolic links but that went... awful. 

Still, the renaming wasn't my idea, it was an attempt to treat an apparent problem (naming rights) I just decided I couldn't overcome.

5 hours ago, Lupi said:

You generally don't go out and make a thread of your own for this

Frankly, yes you do.  Going onto their threads makes the support burden shift to them.  These were by my own admission, very bleeding edge recompiles.  That'd have been a very bad idea to make "look official" by posting in their living space.  We discussed this at length, here actually.

The whole rename thing happened as a reaction to criticism that I used their names.  It really wasn't something I wanted to do and as noted, it broke the universe on pretty much everything causing me to give up and just say "gg guys."

I've not left because I care about this game, and I really think you guys really need to make a policy on this or just accept no new modders are going to have a clue what is going on if the there is no consensus. 

Can I use the name?

No, it's not yours!

Ok then...  Can I rename it?

No, that's an awful idea!  X will be confused!

Existing thread?

No, then you look official.

New thread?

No, then you want attention.

It's just crazy.  What do I do, go home? I hate to admit this but I'm not a creative person and you've thought of most of the good ideas...  my only hope is adoption of something that's broke.  But now?  I can't even fathom trying again.

I'm not the first nor the last.  I'm only still here because I'm stubborn really.  Most wouldn't be.

Edited by R-T-B
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9 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

Frankly, yes you do.  Going onto their threads makes the support burden shift to them.  These were by my own admission, very bleeding edge recompiles.  That'd have been a very bad idea to make "look official" by posting in their living space.  We discussed this at length, here actually.

Actually, no you don't  ... at least not until you have done your due diligence in finding out what is going on with any given mod you wish to do something with

It seems this point is being lost on people

How would you like it if you just made a sandwich for lunch and had to go do something real quick before you could eat it, then I walk up and say 'oh, sandwich' and then start yamming down on it

I don't know about you but I'm not too keen on people eating my food

This is exactly what happened in this case ... eating someones food without even finding out what is what

Edited by DoctorDavinci
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11 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Actually, no you don't  ... at least not until you have done your due diligence in finding out what is going on with any given mod you wish to do something with

I did with scatterer.  Author has been gone roughly a month, unreachable.  Feel free to confirm.

The others were a mistake.  I admitted such.  But they ARE open source licensed.  Heck, some of them are GPL-v3, which isn't even LEGAL to license as a mod against a binary game (it'd have to adopt the GPLv3 as well, because that's what GPVv3 does, it's the "viral license").  That means I could DMCA them if I wanted to be a complete ass (It happened to Bukkit in minecraft land, for those who say "no way!").  Even if you win in court, DMCA'd code tends to be deleted from servers and gone for good.  Again, this exact thing happened to Bukkit.  They were on Curse, which seems big here, too.  DMCA deletions tend to be processed in under 24 hours, as well.

You guys really need to think about what you do with licenses more.  It's bad.  I'm not saying this to hurt you.  I'm saying this because it's very risky stuff you are doing and someone is going to get mad and wreck your universe.

11 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

This is exactly what happened in this case

If you add that you had a paper in front of you saying "willing to share food" it might be more comparable.  The most I did was consume your food rudely by releasing a binary before it was ready, I think.  I'll own up to that and it's why all forks but one were killed within hours (that one was renamed as well, and is dead now too).

Again, even this "you ask first" is a new concept to me and I've been around.  It certainly isn't expected everywhere.  In GNUland, the idea that the license does not express the authors wishes would be grounds for a bug report.  But I admit, I walked in and didn't learn the customs before my release.  That's on me.

Edited by R-T-B
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While the scatterer dev isn't always on the forums, he is quite often in a few modders discords. He is around. Real life sometimes takes up mod time. He has not dropped support and would be the first to let anyone know if he did (obviously). He has an irregular update schedule, but always comes through. Saying he is probably gone for good is just wishful thinking on your end, I suppose. One does not have to be on the forums every day, week, or month to be considered active. While everyone wants scatterer to be updated, we have patiently waited for updates in the past and we will continue to this time around as well. He has been working on that mod in his free time since 2014-2015.  So let's say about 5 years. He hasn't visited the forums in 3 weeks and that means he is just gone now? C'mon.

Edited by Galileo
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7 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

I did with scatterer.  Author has been gone roughly a month, unreachable.  Feel free to confirm.

The others were a mistake.  I admitted such.  But they ARE open source licensed.  Heck, some of them are GPL-v3, which isn't even LEGAL to license as a mod against a binary game (it'd have to adopt the GPLv3 as well, because that's what GPVv3 does, it's the "viral license").  That means I could DMCA them if I wanted to be a complete ass (It happened to Bukkit in minecraft land, for those who say "no way!").  Even if you win in court, DMCA'd code tends to be deleted from servers and gone for good.  Again, this exact thing happened to Bukkit.  They were on Curse, which seems big here, too.  DMCA deletions tend to be processed in under 24 hours, as well.

You guys really need to think about what you do with licenses more.  It's bad.  I'm not saying this to hurt you.  I'm saying this because it's very risky stuff you are doing and someone is going to get mad and wreck your universe.

If you add that you had a paper in front of you saying "willing to share food" it might be more comparable.  The most I did was consume your food rudely by releasing a binary before it was ready, I think.  I'll own up to that and it's why all forks but one were killed within hours (that one was renamed as well, and is dead now too).

Again, even this "you ask first" is a new concept to me and I've been around.  It certainly isn't expected everywhere.  But I admit, I walked in and didn't learn the customs before my release.  That's on me.

Thing is around this forum you will find that a majority of modders and users have a modicum respect for each other and will tend to ask about things before just doing whatever notion comes to mind

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26 minutes ago, Galileo said:

Saying he is probably gone for good is just wishful thinking on your end, I suppose.

No, I'd need to want him to be gone, first.  Do you think I forked it because I DIDN'T want that mod?

As someone setting up a 1.7 install so I can use his mod again, that's not going to happen.  And yes, my builds had bugs.  Of course they did. That was the point.  He should be getting a letter, someday, explaining that.  And asking his permission to continue builds I had been making in his (yes, limited) absence.

Ironic as his answer no longer matters.  I deleted my local and remote source trees.  I have no desire to violate anyones standards, whether or not they make sense.

My github?  Oh, it's awesome, It's empty and since my other repos are private, it will remain that way (and that's because they are mine, and I make my intent known):

https://github.com/R-T-B?tab=repositories

23 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Thing is around this forum you will find that a majority of modders and users have a modicum respect for each other and will tend to ask about things before just doing whatever notion comes to mind

You imply I don't have respect for you guys.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Am I am incredibly appalled that you've let your licensing situation get to here?  Yes!  But that does not mean I have any ill will towards you or respect you any less.  Kopernicus blew my mind, in particular.  The sheer coding skill here is without bounds and I have no doubts you can do whatever you put your mind to...

But this will happen again, and you know it.  Until you fix it.  Licenses are supposed to be wills of intent for the author.  That's their legal purpose, and function.  I read every one of them (minus one in an incorrect path on github, which you'll recall), noting even where they weren't enforcable (or literal takedown risks) and still trying to obey them.

That's my respect.  I'm sorry it was not enough, and FWIW, I will never do this again.  I've done everything in my power to course correct and yet for some reason, here we are, still debating whether or not there is some kind of issue here on my end, or yours.  I'd say this thread is a testament to your licensing issues, frankly.  But yes, I made a mistake too.  I didn't ask your norms.  Sorry for that.  If you want to interpret that as a lack of respect, fine.  Interpret me having this very painful conversation to explain myself to you as a testament to it, then.  Very few people would've put up with this and most would have just went back to playing the game by now.

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And with that being said, I don't have an easy answer beyond "never use GPL-v3 for a mod to a closed source game unless you want to be sorry later." (Really guys, v2 is fine).

I suppose it's always easier to see the problems than to come up with the answers, right?

I guess you could actually put in writing what you think about forks.  That'd be helpful.  It doesn't even have to be legally enforcable.  Most people (myself included) will read it and respect your wishes regardless.  Most of us new modders are here because we love the game, not because we want to eat your food.

Edited by R-T-B
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2 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

And with that being said, I don't have an easy answer beyond "never use GPL-v3 for a mod to a closed source game unless you want to be sorry later." (Really guys, v2 is fine).

I suppose it's always easier to see the problems than to come up with the answers, right?

I guess you could actually put in writing what you think about forks.  That'd be helpful.  It doesn't even have to be legally enforcable.  Most people (myself included) will read it and respect your wishes regardless.  Most of us new modders are here because we love the game, not because we want to eat your food.

You still don't get it, do you?

The issue here isn't whether the licensing allows for it, the issue is you came in here and kicked a couple people in the balls and now your sitting here arguing the fact that it is ok to do so

Put the licensing aside for a moment and look at how this whole fiasco unfolded ... More than a few prominent modders advised you of what is what and how to go about doing what you had planned however it appears your nose got bent out of shape due to people telling you what is what

And now it's just an excuse to be outraged

Honestly, I actually looked at some of what you were doing and thought you could be a help with a bunch of my code but not with this attitude

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8 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

The issue here isn't whether the licensing allows for it, the issue is you came in here and kicked a couple people in the balls and now your sitting here arguing the fact that it is ok to do so

No, I said explicitly:

43 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

But I admit, I walked in and didn't learn the customs before my release.  That's on me.

 

33 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

But yes, I made a mistake too.  I didn't ask your norms.  Sorry for that. 

 

33 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

I've done everything in my power to course correct

Which part of this sounds like I don't think I did anything wrong?  It sounds more to me like you are unwilling to let this go.

I made a mistake that's on me.  What's frustrating is you act like it's not a mistake anyone could've made, and that you apparently don't think anyone will make it again.

Good luck with that.  If you are still angry, that's a personal issue I can't help you with beyond advising you to do what I am going to do now:  Play Kerbal.  Always feels right.

8 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Honestly, I actually looked at some of what you were doing and thought you could be a help with a bunch of my code but not with this attitude

PM me any time.  I've already told several people who asked me questions the same.  No credit needed, I don't care.  You can ask around.

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1 minute ago, R-T-B said:

No, I said explicitly:

 

 

Which part of this sounds like I don't think I did anything wrong?  It sounds more to me like you are unwilling to let this go.

I made a mistake that's on me.  What's frustrating is you act like it's not a mistake anyone could've made, and that you apparently don't think anyone will make it again.

Good luck with that.  If you are still angry, that's a personal issue I can't help you with beyond advising you to do what I am going to do now:  Play Kerbal.  Always feels right.

PM me any time.  I've already told several people who asked me questions the same.  No credit needed, I don't care.  You can ask around.

And you're still here arguing

I rest my case

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I'm responding to criticisms levied at me, actually(as well as offering source help to anyone), but have fun with the idea that I just came here to eat your food, and it was obvious and will never happen again.

Nom nom.

EDIT:  As this has basically regressed into this:

I am requesting this threads closure.  I apologize for all I did and didn't do.

Edited by R-T-B
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Galileo summed up some of my thinking on this. The dev in question for scatterer has been working on it for literally years. It's not his job, and I'm sure there are plenty of lessons to be learned if he really wanted to rewrite it, but it works.

I don't think he should have to log into the forums every day and say hi to ensure people know he is around. If you had literally pinged with an '@' like @R-T-B , then I'm sure he would have pinged you back within a week. I'm sure he is well aware that KSP is at 1.8, that Unity has been upgraded, and that he has 'work' to do.

Also, had you pinged him, and given him maybe an hour, and then hosted a temporary working .dll I think things would have turned out differently.

Then you 'fixed' a bug. That has been around for years. I chuckled. You tested it for 5 mins, declared it fixed, and released it.

At this point, I think we're still good. Thanks for fixing the bug. However.... then you mentioned all the plans you had, and all the things you were going to do with the project, and that it had been abandoned and was now yours.

At this point we have crossed a line or two. The number one being you didn't even ping the guy, or give him time to get off the toilet.

Then, after that, you claimed several other projects as yours. I chuckled again.

Not only did you take over a mod you had no ethical license to, you bit off more than you could chew. Scatterer itself was not release ready.

Now, I have over 200 mods I run with. When updates come out I usually start with visual mods, or end with visual mods, due to the nature of chasing stuff around due to having to get all the configs just right.

Scatterer is unique in more than one respect. What it adds is awesome, but of little functional value. What it can screw up vs. the reward... is just not worth it, especially when you start trying to symlink configs. The configs are hard enough to deal with as is, let alone adding symlinks. And this is before changing actual namespaces in the code.

It's not so much that scatterer breaks things in and of itself, it's that then people start tinkering perfectly valid configs, and then the poo just starts rolling down the hill. Throw in a little module manager action and we end up with a pretty big turd.

There are so many mods right now that need attention due to the nature of this update. Many of which truly do need some love.

Just give someone a week to respond next time.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to flame you. I saw your repository. Open up CKAN and look at all the cool excrements that is labeled somewhere between 1.0 and 1.4 and hasn't been updated in... forever. Look at said mods forum posts where people ask if it works and results are mixed.

I would love to see your skillset used on some of those mods.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grigetio
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35 minutes ago, Grigetio said:

However.... then you mentioned all the plans you had, and all the things you were going to do with the projec

Nope.  Quote if you can prove otherwise.  I don't delete.

Can we quit the outright fabrications?  My whole goal was to act as a bleeding edge at recompile points so I could forward bugs, at his whim.

35 minutes ago, Grigetio said:

Not only did you take over a mod you had no ethical license to, you bit off more than you could chew. Scatterer itself was not release ready.

You obviously did not read the release notes, did you?  I wish I still had them.  The last release was called IIRC "OMG MAKE IT STOP" edition with a note it could and would "wipe out your universe"

Sunflares duplicated and "burned the planet."  The ocean was transluscent.  And that was on the first build before the rename.  All that was known.  It was warned.  But atmospheric scattering worked.

It was never advertised as ready.  Heck, after the rename, it didn't even work in the basic sense.  I laugh at all these "logs" people are reporting from my work (not plural because most were taken down in hours) because the logger was broken and the tool wouldn't even load.

It seems I've become a boogeyman of sorts for anything that goes wrong with those utilities, even though many of them had exactly 0 downloads.  You have inadvertently, put me on the end of the stick you were claiming you wanted to avoid, and caused me much strife in defending my good name here.  I do not appreciate this, and would ask it stop.  I already requested this threads closure.

35 minutes ago, Grigetio said:

I'm not trying to flame you.

You are however, parroting blatant lies.  I doubt intentionally, but still.

I appreciate what your trying to say, don't get me wrong.  I did this wrong for this communities culture and that is entirely something I am willing to admit, and have repeatedly apologized for.  But don't deny your licensing situation is wonky.  It's wonky beyond words.

Frankly, I can respect what you have going on...  but it's unique to here.  Acting like I "should've known" is denying the problem.  You NEED to make this more clear, somehow.

And I'm not the first, am I?

Do you think I'll be the last?

In conclusion, I come from a land where I primarily port old linux things.  No one does there takes the time to "ping", so perhaps my background tainted me.  But I'm certain this is not a...  universal attitude, to say the least.  Pinging him?  Fine, tell me and I'll do it.  But where I come from, it's the infromation age, the license tells you what you need and unless told otherwise, no one pings anyone.  Make it clear if that's what the unwritten rule is, because unwritten rulse?  By virtue of being unwritten, they never work.

People are acting like I came here to steal their thunder.  I'd argue a good OSS dev doesn't have any to steal, but...  maybe that's just me.  Regardless, I didn't.  I came here because I love KSP, and wanted to help.  That's what's most upsetting to me, is that I have now made some of the people of whome I actually adore and admire absolutely think I'm some kind of code-stealing monster, and it's all because no document existed telling me "this is how things are done."  This is all you have.  How on earth does that work?

So yeah, my day sucks.

Edited by R-T-B
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