dave1904 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, ronson49 said: I certainly won't be buying KSP2 because of Unity ok then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gargamel Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, ronson49 said: I have asked this to be deleted and it hasn't happened. I didn't start this thread, the Mods started it for me. That is what happens when you post something that is either off topic, or starts a discussion that becomes off topic. And since this discussion has continued with other members replying, it won't get deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Industries Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I will point out that grandma's free copy of Unity has very different capabilities from the paid, developer grade version of Unity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steuben Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Quote So maybe KSP3 will use a bit more of a grown up toolset. I hear people are doing wonderful things in Emacs lately. However, what engine/toolset would you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronson49 Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raven Industries said: I will point out that grandma's free copy of Unity has very different capabilities from the paid, developer grade version of Unity. Granny can't make a splash screen, and she doesn't get analytics. She will still be harnessing the exact capability of what KSP2 has available. https://store.unity.com/compare-plans 4 minutes ago, steuben said: I hear people are doing wonderful things in Emacs lately. However, what engine/toolset would you suggest? KSP is a very unique, very epic and very demanding title and to do it justice, it requires some kind of custom engine. I would likely start with something that doesn't assume I am a grandmother with no experience, then I would ask the multi billion dollar backer called Take Two, to put money into funding this unique engine to realize the game correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 2 hours ago, ronson49 said: Isometric isn't 3D, keep trying. If Rigid Body physics is the problem, then KSP (under the pockets of one of the bigger publishers in the world) should be starting with an optimized physics body system, and building a game from there. Not starting with the same underlying Unity Framework aimed at my Grandmother and her Indy game weekend jaunt. You're mistaken about Disco Elysium. It uses a fully 3D rendering pipeline. It just has a fixed camera. That's a creative choice, not a technical one. (Source: I discussed this with the lead programmer Jaagup Irve, I was peripherally involved in the development.) But as I said that's completely irrelevant because, as stated, graphics isn't the bottleneck here. Certainly building a dedicated physics engine optimised specifically for KSP2 could end up with better performance. But then again it might not: it's harder than you think, and the physics engine in Unity is mature and probably better than you think. You would need (1) developers with the skills necessary to develop such a system -- which are not those of a game developer -- and (2) the time and budget to do it. However even in that case the bottleneck is unrelated to Unity: you could plug this dedicated physics system into it just as well as into any other game engine. Moreover, doing this would be really expensive. KSP only exists in the first place because Unity provides a rigid-body API out of the box. Seriously, you're completely out of your depth here, and just embarrassing yourself the more you keep at it. Like saying stuff that's just flat-out false , like comparing Unity and Java -- even after the fallacy has been pointed out to you. Here it is again: Java is a language that compiles into bytecodes that run on a virtual machine; Unity is an engine used to compile binary executables from a number of languages, that then run natively on their target system. The analogy just... isn't an analogy. Why not let this drop, and then judge KSP2 on its merits when it comes out? Or, if you really hate Unity that much, just tune out? Ranting about it really is a complete waste of time. As, incidentally, is discussing the topic -- which is why this is the last I have to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiscelanousItem Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 a little example of quality and optimized unity game: https://www.thelongdark.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilkoot Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 6 hours ago, ronson49 said: I urge you AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME to provide a single 3d Rendered, Performant Unity game that can compete with 2010+ visuals. In the Virtual Reality gaming segment, performance is paramount, yet about 75% of virtual reality developers to date have chosen to build on Unity. For reference, low-end VR resolution is 2160×1200 @90Hz, and there is zero tolerance for stutters, so pretty much every VR game dev must focus first and foremost of visual performance. The engine of choice for most developers has been Unity, as Unreal-based VR titles have no performance advantage over their Unity counterparts, and Unreal's VR tools were late to the game and generally provide poorer visuals. As others have made clear, KSP's performance problems are related to CPU-bound physics calculations, not rendering. The way those calculations are made has nothing to do with the engine, and everything to do with developer choices. Modern versions of Unity hold their own with anything on the market, and with mod developers supporting the choice, it sounds like Unity was the best possible direction for Star Theory to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldForest Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Chilkoot said: In the Virtual Reality gaming segment, performance is paramount, yet about 75% of virtual reality developers to date have chosen to build on Unity. For reference, low-end VR resolution is 2160×1200 @90Hz, and there is zero tolerance for stutters, so pretty much every VR game dev must focus first and foremost of visual performance. The engine of choice for most developers has been Unity, as Unreal-based VR titles have no performance advantage over their Unity counterparts, and Unreal's VR tools were late to the game and generally provide poorer visuals. As others have made clear, KSP's performance problems are related to CPU-bound physics calculations, not rendering. The way those calculations are made has nothing to do with the engine, and everything to do with developer choices. Modern versions of Unity hold their own with anything on the market, and with mod developers supporting the choice, it sounds like Unity was the best possible direction for Star Theory to take. Deep level coding is also to blame for KSP's performance issues. If Squad would go back and recode KSP 1, even just a little bit, it would go a long way. 1.8's performance gain is kind of evident of this. The upgrade from DX9 to DX11 gave it a lot of performance boost. Shadowzone did a video where he compared physic explosion times. 1.8 won obviously. There was little time that the scene was frozen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, ronson49 said: hen I would ask the multi billion dollar backer called Take Two The backer is not Take Two, it's Private Division a different company, property of Take Two, entirely dedicated to smaller budget AA games, a custom game engine is out of the budget of any Private Division game and often is also out of the budget of *most* big AAA franchises. Edited October 19, 2019 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilkoot Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, GoldForest said: If Squad would go back and recode KSP 1, even just a little bit, it would go a long way. I suspect they (Squad) may be stuck between a rock and a hard place on this. The biggest impact right now is per-piece physics and the interactions at every joint. If they re-code the physics from the ground up to permit much larger ships and bases, it will almost certainly break existing structures and saves. I don't think there's a real "win" situation for them here that offers both major performance gains and save compatibility. I would love to be wrong about KSP 1's future optimization potential, but I think KSP 2 was really the only long-term way forward for the franchise in general to let people build bigger and go further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Industries Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 2 hours ago, ronson49 said: Granny can't make a splash screen, and she doesn't get analytics. She will still be harnessing the exact capability of what KSP2 has available. https://store.unity.com/compare-plans She doesn't get source code access either, which is not an insignificant detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcwaffles2003 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, ronson49 said: Can this thread be deleted please? I simply said that I can't buy KSP2 as it is using Unity, and the usual fan boys have come out moaning about it with their usual lack of evidence. This doesn't need to be a thread of its own. I offered an answer, universe sandbox 2 is another visually pleasing physics based game that runs well. Now please answer me, what alternative engine would you have KSP 2 run on? Edited October 19, 2019 by mcwaffles2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKSPBeginner Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I play KSP on an old laptop and can run ships with more than 12 parts pretty well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnPhillips Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 KSP's limitations come from the game code, not the Engine code. KSP started life as a side project by 1 guy at a marketing company. KSP 2 is being developed from scratch by a team of experienced game developers. It is being rebuilt from scratch in order to get around the limitations that are built too deeply into KSP1's core game code to be fixed at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klgraham1013 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 15 hours ago, ronson49 said: I need 10000 parts Great. Now I spit out my coffee. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1904 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 11 hours ago, Master39 said: The backer is not Take Two, it's Private Division a different company, property of Take Two, entirely dedicated to smaller budget AA games, a custom game engine is out of the budget of any Private Division game and often is also out of the budget of *most* big AAA franchises. rumor has it KSP3 will be developed by rockstar north on the rage engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonreaper Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, ronson49 said: I guess for me personally, i'd take any other engine other than Unity. Ugh, I would even take Unreal. At least it has a fragment of performance and requires a little more knowledge than my grandmother to correctly use it. To add to the many that have pointed out that the problem lies with the developers and their code, not the engine, here is a thread complaining about how bad the performance of games built in unreal engine are. https://www.reddit.com/r/lowendgaming/comments/91aqe0/unreal_engine_games_to_low_spec_gamers/ I want to point out that in this, the original poster includes that he can play a game built in unity better than unreal. EDIT: For a 3d game in which performance is critical and made in unity, try beat saber. The performance is so good that players ability to play faster speeds was throttled by SteamVR tracking responsiveness and SteamVR needed to be upgraded and not the code or unity engine. Edited October 20, 2019 by Demonreaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Rhodan Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 18 hours ago, ronson49 said: I remember you from my previous unity bashing thread, So you aknowledge that this and your previous thread are absolutely worthless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcwaffles2003 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 18 hours ago, ronson49 said: I remember you from my previous unity bashing thread, and you went quiet when I asked to provide a reasonable quality, reasonable performance 3D Rendered Unity Game. I haven't forgotten, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unity_games Subnautica It's 3-D, beautiful, runs well, has free building in a lego like manner similar to kerbal, and is built in unity Unity may be a free engine available to everyone, so many amateurs may make sub par inefficient games using it but that doesnt mean in the correct hands it cant be used to make something great. But please tell me that subnautica chugs or looks ugly to defend your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Historically, without Unity there would be just no KSP at all, so that's not a question of choice. And having ready-to-use working code for Unity it would be very unwise to change the game engine right in flight with no commercial reasons. So, KSP is Unity, like Minecraft is Java, just face it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldForest Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 18 hours ago, ronson49 said: So maybe KSP3 will use a bit more of a grown up toolset. KSP 3 will be on Unity if it is ever made. There's no other game engine that lets you do in KSP what Unity allows. Unreal engine - Made for Shooters and Racers. Bethesda's game engine - Made for shooters and sword fighters Cry engine - Made for shooters No engine can do what Unity can do. It's a universal game engine, which can do anything you want or need it to do. 2d Platformer 3d platformer Flight simulator Side scroller rpg FPS and TPS shooters. Name one game engine that is more robust than Unity? That is readily available for developers to use? The only way you won't get a KSP made in Unity, is if someone made a custom game engine for KSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, GoldForest said: The only way you won't get a KSP made in Unity, is if someone made a custom game engine for KSP. That's what he's advocating. His argument is that TT is rich and should spend some of that money to build an engine for KSP2 from scratch. I will leave it to the reader to decide how reasonable that proposal is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Brikoleur said: That's what he's advocating. His argument is that TT is rich and should spend some of that money to build an engine for KSP2 from scratch. Once NASA becomes an official sponsor... Wait.. That's it. A petition to NASA to fund KSP. Edited October 20, 2019 by kerbiloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 minute ago, kerbiloid said: Once NASA becomes an official sponsor... Well they had their bit in making Moonbase Alpha and we all know how that ended up. John Madden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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