How to make docking less an exercise in frustration?

[RainThorn]

9 hours ago, Laie said:

Blast.

As mentioned in my previous post, that's a problem with the game giving you wrong directions. Small wonder that you're frustrated.

The only stock workaround I can think of would be to "aim camera" at the docking port you're using, then rotate view and zoom in, so far that you're effectively looking out of the port. And then fly visually. Good luck.

Other than that, try mods.

Click docking port on your ship and turn on control from here, then your directions will be correct, set docking port of other vehicle as target, align prograde/retrograde marker with target marker and then use SAS to align docking port axis with movement vector (align V marker with O and X markers). Turn SAS off just before contact.

[djr5899]

As the original poster of one of the threads @Gargamel referenced, I can tell you it does take practice, and after you get the hang of it, using the stock NavBall, to me, is the easiest method.

• I no longer use any docking mods.  I don't even the stock docking mode.  I just use targeting nodes in the NavBall and the prograde/retrograde nodes in the NavBall.  Using both of those, I am able to get my ships slowed down or to a complete stop, and aligned.
• Things become a lot simpler, IMO, if you can get the craft you are docking to a complete stop.  Get it within 50-100m of the target. 
  • From that point, switch to the craft/station you are trying to dock to.  So let's say you want to dock CraftB with StationA.  Get CraftB stopped within 50-100m of StationA.
  • From CraftB, choose the docking port on StationA that you want to dock with, and then set that as the Target.  Use NavBall Target node, RCS and SAS to hone in on that docking port.
  • Switch to StationA, and from StationA, select the docking port on CraftB that you want to dock with.  Then select the Target node on the NavBall, and wait until StationA is on the Target Node.
  • Switch back to CraftB.  Both craft should be lined up with each other and at the correct angle at this point.  Turn on RCS, use thrusters to slowly advance. Assuming your RCS thrusters aren't pushing you off target, you should be able to keep moving towards StationA at around .3m/s, and drop down to .1 or .2 m/s as you get really close.  Too fast, and you'll bounce off the docking port.  Use RCS and SAS together to stay on target.

Again, as the poster that posted one of those threads asking for help.....it still takes time.  Learn to get the craft in the same orbit, an intersection point as close as possible with as low as speed as possible.  It still took me some time to get it, but the above method seems to work best for me.  There are even times where I can have a close intercept, but speed is way too fast.  I've learned how to use retrograde to quickly slow the craft down to a suitable approach speed.  Big help, and helps eliminate that "always chasing the other craft" effect.

Hope this helps.

[paul23]

16 minutes ago, djr5899 said:

As the original poster of one of the threads @Gargamel referenced, I can tell you it does take practice, and after you get the hang of it, using the stock NavBall, to me, is the easiest method.

• I no longer use any docking mods.  I don't even the stock docking mode.  I just use targeting nodes in the NavBall and the prograde/retrograde nodes in the NavBall.  Using both of those, I am able to get my ships slowed down or to a complete stop, and aligned.
• Things become a lot simpler, IMO, if you can get the craft you are docking to a complete stop.  Get it within 50-100m of the target. 
  • From that point, switch to the craft/station you are trying to dock to.  So let's say you want to dock CraftB with StationA.  Get CraftB stopped within 50-100m of StationA.
  • From CraftB, choose the docking port on StationA that you want to dock with, and then set that as the Target.  Use NavBall Target node, RCS and SAS to hone in on that docking port.
  • Switch to StationA, and from StationA, select the docking port on CraftB that you want to dock with.  Then select the Target node on the NavBall, and wait until StationA is on the Target Node.
  • Switch back to CraftB.  Both craft should be lined up with each other and at the correct angle at this point.  Turn on RCS, use thrusters to slowly advance. Assuming your RCS thrusters aren't pushing you off target, you should be able to keep moving towards StationA at around .3m/s, and drop down to .1 or .2 m/s as you get really close.  Too fast, and you'll bounce off the docking port.  Use RCS and SAS together to stay on target.

Again, as the poster that posted one of those threads asking for help.....it still takes time.  Learn to get the craft in the same orbit, an intersection point as close as possible with as low as speed as possible.  It still took me some time to get it, but the above method seems to work best for me.  There are even times where I can have a close intercept, but speed is way too fast.  I've learned how to use retrograde to quickly slow the craft down to a suitable approach speed.  Big help, and helps eliminate that "always chasing the other craft" effect.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, but for me it's not the difficulty getting close, but the final meters. As an example "mission": say I am docked to a station which is around 50-100m long. Now I wish to undock, and redock at the opposite end. (long distance). The station is "too heavy" to rotate. So I'll have to get some distance, move around the station, and align for docking.

 

This simple maneuver took me more than an hour to get.

[djr5899]

19 hours ago, paul23 said:

Thanks, but for me it's not the difficulty getting close, but the final meters. As an example "mission": say I am docked to a station which is around 50-100m long. Now I wish to undock, and redock at the opposite end. (long distance). The station is "too heavy" to rotate. So I'll have to get some distance, move around the station, and align for docking.

 

This simple maneuver took me more than an hour to get.

Do you mean that it is so heavy it rotates too slowly, or does it actually break apart if you try and rotate it?  What I would probably try is to add new docking ports to the ends of the large station.  

• docking port
• remote guidance
• small fuel tank
• RCS and/or small Lf engines
• large reaction wheel.

I'd build two of these, put them on each end, and see if that helps the large station rotate any faster.  Then ships would just dock to these new modules.  Just a thought/suggestion.

[paul23]

Just now, djr5899 said:

Do you mean that it is so heavy it rotates too slowly, or does it actually break apart if you try and rotate it?  What I would probably try is to add new docking ports to the ends of the large station.  

• docking port
• remote guidance
• small fuel tank
• RCS and/or small Lf engines
• large reaction wheel.

I'd build two of these, put them on each end, and see if that helps the large station rotate any faster.  Then ships would just dock to these new modules.  Just a thought/suggestion.

It's more of a challenge, but in the future I plan to make an station consisting of many parts joined together, so that the wobbling will make turning near impossible.

 

I tried following the rules of putting my control from, and target to the docking ports. However if I then follow the guide of putting prograte at the target, I "touch" the other component under a ~30 degree angle, and the magnet docking will actually hurl me away. So back to the original post: how to line up the ports so they face each other. When I cannot rotate the station.

[djr5899]

2 minutes ago, paul23 said:

It's more of a challenge, but in the future I plan to make an station consisting of many parts joined together, so that the wobbling will make turning near impossible.

 

I tried following the rules of putting my control from, and target to the docking ports. However if I then follow the guide of putting prograte at the target, I "touch" the other component under a ~30 degree angle, and the magnet docking will actually hurl me away. So back to the original post: how to line up the ports so they face each other. When I cannot rotate the station.

Are you able to post a screenshot or short video clip of what you are seeing?

[Snark]

On 11/8/2019 at 6:38 AM, paul23 said:

I wish to *not eyeball it*.. I hate having to do 3d stuff in a 2d screen. I really wish to have a numerical approach so I can actually *see* the angles and correct them. Instead of having to fly by heart.

Here's an illustrated guide that may help take some of the guesswork out of it.  It's a straightforward step-by-step process that completely involves just watching the little icons on the navball, which helps eliminate "mental 3D gymnastics" from the equation:

 

On 11/8/2019 at 8:55 AM, paul23 said:

Well it's that the x-y alignment (translation) isn't possible using the navball.. Exactly that is what I have trouble with.

You absolutely can do x-y alignment (translation) with the navball-- it's a matter of learning how to work with the markers (and, conversely, markers) on the navball.  See the illustrations in the guide linked above.

[paul23]

On 11/13/2019 at 5:29 PM, djr5899 said:

Are you able to post a screenshot or short video clip of what you are seeing?

Well this print screen is "exactly" the problem (notice that the prograte marker is "off" but that's only due to almost zero distance, I kept it exactly at the pink position)

 

 

After this I bounced of making it near impossible

[djr5899]

On 11/16/2019 at 5:56 PM, paul23 said:

Well this print screen is "exactly" the problem (notice that the prograte marker is "off" but that's only due to almost zero distance, I kept it exactly at the pink position)

 

 

After this I bounced of making it near impossible

The Prograde marker being off is likely your issue.  If the pink target marker and the prograde marker are not on top of each other, then it means you are going to hit the docking port at an angle.  When Prograde and the Target marker are on top of each other, then you should hit the docking port at the correct angle.  Again, I'd keep the speed down to 0.2-0.3 m/s, and sometimes when you get real close I find it better to turn of SAS so it doesn't "fling" you off the docking port.

At this close of a distance, what you should do is get the speed down to about 0.1 m/s, and use RCS I/J/K/L keys to move the prograde marker on top of the target.  It shouldn't take much RCS thrust at all to get them line up, assuming you have enough RCS thrusters on a large ship, and they are aligned properly to react correctly (ie, if you have thrusters at improper distances from the center of mass, it will make your RCS movements a bit off of true centered RCS thrusters, which can be frustrating).

[paul23]

1 hour ago, djr5899 said:

The Prograde marker being off is likely your issue.  If the pink target marker and the prograde marker are not on top of each other, then it means you are going to hit the docking port at an angle.  When Prograde and the Target marker are on top of each other, then you should hit the docking port at the correct angle.  Again, I'd keep the speed down to 0.2-0.3 m/s, and sometimes when you get real close I find it better to turn of SAS so it doesn't "fling" you off the docking port.

At this close of a distance, what you should do is get the speed down to about 0.1 m/s, and use RCS I/J/K/L keys to move the prograde marker on top of the target.  It shouldn't take much RCS thrust at all to get them line up, assuming you have enough RCS thrusters on a large ship, and they are aligned properly to react correctly (ie, if you have thrusters at improper distances from the center of mass, it will make your RCS movements a bit off of true centered RCS thrusters, which can be frustrating).

I'm right next to it, any small puff of rcs will switch it over to the other side. Actually if I move "back" 2 meters the difference in markers is impossible to notice. Also the "auto joiner" is working, I hear the ship automatically trying to align itself, however it can't due to angle to big. 

 

But the misalignment is besides the point (as I said, it's due to the reaction *after* I touched the port, the automatic aligner actually moves me away). The bigger problem is that I hit the other port under a 80+ degrees angle.

Edited November 18, 2019 by paul23

[Snark]

On 11/16/2019 at 2:56 PM, paul23 said:

Well this print screen is "exactly" the problem (notice that the prograte marker is "off" but that's only due to almost zero distance, I kept it exactly at the pink position)

Two things that occur to me about this screenshot.

The first is that your relative speed is 0.5 m/s.  That is way fast.  I'd suggest making the closing speed much slower-- i.e. around 0.1 m/s if you're relatively new to docking, 0.3 m/s if you're more experienced.  Higher speeds are fine when you're far apart, but if you're really close you want to be going sloooow.

The other is, how do you know that you're oriented correctly?  I can't see that you're using any docking alignment indicator mod, and it's so pitch-black that I can't see whether your ships are facing the correct way relative to each other.  This is crucially important.  If the axes of the two docking ports aren't fairly close to parallel, it's not going to want to dock even if you have the position and the velocity dialed in pretty well.

What technique are you using to ensure correct orientation?

[paul23]

That's what the topic is about: I do not know how to get the correct orientation using the navball. - I can do it if I would allow myself to rotate both crafts, but if I limit myself to only rotate the incoming craft, getting the alignment right is near impossible.

 

In the image the alignment is actually off by 70 degrees, as (in the dark, so I flew only by navball) apparently the main station rotated around it's "prograde" axis. I "fixed" above by rotating the station so the port was facing the docking ship, this technique easily works. However in the future when things grow larger I shouldn't do this.

[Snark]

22 minutes ago, paul23 said:

if I limit myself to only rotate the incoming craft, getting the alignment right is near impossible.

So, if you're deliberately restricting yourself from rotating the target craft, then that means you have to fly your craft until it's in the correct location (i.e. approximately in front of the target docking port).  That has absolutely nothing to do with the navball, and there is no way to gauge that without looking at where your ship is relative to the target docking port on the screen.  If it's too dark to see, then either you need some way of lighting up the craft well enough to see where things are, or else you'll just have to wait until they orbit into the sunshine.

22 minutes ago, paul23 said:

I do not know how to get the correct orientation using the navball.

With a mod like Navball Docking Alignment Indicator, it's easy and straightforward:

...get the three icons centered, and you're on track to dock.  More details here.

Without such a mod, then basically the only way to do it is to eyeball the two craft and verify that they're facing appropriately.  Which, if you're in the dark and can't see them, is basically impossible.

 

Bear in mind that there are three orientation vectors that matter to complete a docking successfully:

• Your position relative to the target (i.e. "are you in the right place")
• Your relative velocity to the target (i.e. "are you moving the right direction")
• Your orientation relative to the target (i.e. "are the two ports facing the right way")

All three of these things need to be correctly dialed in, in order for a docking to happen successfully.

The stock navball gives you two of these.  You have to give you the first one, and to give you the second.  But you also need the third, and the stock navball just doesn't give you that.  So either you can use a mod to give you that third thing (i.e. the red icon in the above picture), in which case you can dock completely on navball alone... or else you need to use the camera view to eyeball the positioning of things, so that you can manually verify orientation.

 

[Superfluous J]

6 hours ago, paul23 said:

I'm right next to it, any small puff of rcs will switch it over to the other side.

You're not in fine control mode. Hit capslock and the little oranges gauges in the lower left (roll and yaw) will turn blue. Then your RCS puffs will be far less powerful.

0.5 m/s is about 5x faster than I tend to dock. I'd fully expect, if you don't do it absolutely perfect, that you'd have trouble at that speed.

[micha]

On 11/8/2019 at 1:44 PM, paul23 said:

How do you line up larger crafts that take several seconds to rotate?

Docking Port Alignment Indicator.