Ablative wings (or ablative everything)

[Noud]

Ever since 1.8.0 my ever proven LKO shuttle keeps burning up its wings on re-entry (don't know why this happens, but I use the same design since 1.5)

this got me thinking why do we not have wings with ablative purposes?
- maybe a slider which is at 0 by default to safe weight and you can increase the ablativeness of your wings in editor if you please?
- maybe even a visual chance to the bottom of the  wing? the space shuttle had ablative tiles after all 

I would really love to see something like this! as a mod or as some written code you can add to the config file( I use this to make to switch out engines when I like the model but an other engine is better at the job, looks are everything right?)

 

 

on a side note:

should it not be more realistic when everything has some ablative value? every opject has some form of heat resistance but it will always take damage when exposed to high temperatures.
but this would be the opposite of the topic mentioned above, I believe that adding ablator to everything would make re-entry even harder.

[linuxgurugamer]

15 minutes ago, Noud said:

Ever since 1.8.0 my ever proven LKO shuttle keeps burning up its wings on re-entry (don't know why this happens, but I use the same design since 1.5)

this got me thinking why do we not have wings with ablative purposes?
- maybe a slider which is at 0 by default to safe weight and you can increase the ablativeness of your wings in editor if you please?
- maybe even a visual chance to the bottom of the  wing? the space shuttle had ablative tiles after all 

I would really love to see something like this! as a mod or as some written code you can add to the config file( I use this to make to switch out engines when I like the model but an other engine is better at the job, looks are everything right?)

 

 

on a side note:

should it not be more realistic when everything has some ablative value? every opject has some form of heat resistance but it will always take damage when exposed to high temperatures.
but this would be the opposite of the topic mentioned above, I believe that adding ablator to everything would make re-entry even harder.

Because that would make it unplayable for new players.

Look at this mod:

Not sure if it does what you want, but it more realisticly deals with heat

[Noud]

43 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Because that would make it unplayable for new players.

Look at this mod:

Not sure if it does what you want, but it more realisticly deals with heat

it kind of does exactly what I meant in the side note, but this mod makes re-entry even harder does it?

but the problem I have is that a shuttle I used in multiple career play troughs are now burning up on re-entry, but the only heat shielding we have are the circular ones you put under a command pod.i like to see some heat shielded wings, like we see on the space-shuttle IRL

[linuxgurugamer]

18 minutes ago, Noud said:

but the problem I have is that a shuttle I used in multiple career play troughs are now burning up on re-entry, but the only heat shielding we have are the circular ones you put under a command pod.i like to see some heat shielded wings, like we see on the space-shuttle IRL

I believe that some of the aero changed a bit on the Unity upgrade.  They did some adjustments in 1.8.1, beyond that, it's just a matter of working it out.  Maybe you are coming in too fast?

[HansAcker]

2 hours ago, Noud said:

Ever since 1.8.0 my ever proven LKO shuttle keeps burning up its wings on re-entry (don't know why this happens, but I use the same design since 1.5)

Does that still happen in 1.8.1? KSP 1.8.0 had some issues with heating and drag that may or may not have been fixed.

https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/23966

[Noud]

59 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I believe that some of the aero changed a bit on the Unity upgrade.  They did some adjustments in 1.8.1, beyond that, it's just a matter of working it out.  Maybe you are coming in too fast?

well I must be going to fast, coming from a +- 90km LKO to a 55 to 60km Pe going down with a nice 45' angle all the way down to where flying becomes possible always seem to be doing the job just fine.

with a less aggressive decent profile I mange to save the ship but basically all overheating bars are visible. don't even want to talk about the return trip from the mun with a 90' angle at 60 to 65 km.

tbh I did not test it in 1.8.1 as I did not have any contracts needing a shuttle.

[Starwaster]

6 hours ago, Noud said:

it kind of does exactly what I meant in the side note, but this mod makes re-entry even harder does it?

but the problem I have is that a shuttle I used in multiple career play troughs are now burning up on re-entry, but the only heat shielding we have are the circular ones you put under a command pod.i like to see some heat shielded wings, like we see on the space-shuttle IRL

Not necessarily harder. If you design a sensible craft and reenter with a reasonable trajectory then you'll be ok.

Just be aware that most parts have had their temperature tolerances reduced to reasonable levels. (instead of acting like they're made of tungsten).

Space plane parts assume an inner material similar to aluminum with the skin being modeled after space shuttle tile thermal qualities. (they have no ablative shield but are designed to resist shallow reentry heating)

[linuxgurugamer]

6 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Not necessarily harder. If you design a sensible craft and reenter with a reasonable trajectory then you'll be ok.

Just be aware that most parts have had their temperature tolerances reduced to reasonable levels. (instead of acting like they're made of tungsten).

Space plane parts assume an inner material similar to aluminum with the skin being modeled after space shuttle tile thermal qualities. (they have no ablative shield but are designed to resist shallow reentry heating)

Should I be looking at the temperature values for SXT and the other mods of mine which have spaceplane parts?

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Should I be looking at the temperature values for SXT and the other mods of mine which have spaceplane parts?

I don't think any of those parts are addressed by Deadly Reentry so maybe you want to look at their thermal characteristics

Here's an example of what DR does with space plane parts:

https://github.com/Starwaster/DeadlyReentry/blob/master/DeadlyReentry/DeadlyReentry-OPT.cfg

Note though that I do think even 2706 is a little too high for stock sized planets. It should be just high enough to withstand a shallow LKO reentry (but probably not return from Mun and definitely not Minmus)

Note also that I take the exact opposite approach from stock which increases thermal mass for plane parts. I modeled after Shuttle tiles which have low thermal mass. Really, increasing thermal mass just means you hit thermal equilibrium slower. If you can hit equilibrium without the part being destroyed then it doesn't matter what the thermal mass is. It's just more energy to dissipate.

[Pds314]

Look at the sectional density and drag of your craft. It's counterintuitive but you want to slow down as aggressively as you can at all times without overheating.

[razark]

Ablative wings would probably play hell with the aerodynamics, though.

[kerbiloid]

Ablative wings would probably play a barrell roll.

[Pds314]

On 11/21/2019 at 7:50 PM, razark said:

Ablative wings would probably play hell with the aerodynamics, though.

They're only changing in mass, not drag though, right?

[kerbiloid]

41 minutes ago, Pds314 said:

They're only changing in mass, not drag though, right?

Irl they can't do this simultaneously. One will ablate a little faster than another one.

[pandaman]

7 hours ago, Pds314 said:

They're only changing in mass, not drag though, right?

If material ablates away then the shape changes, so aerodynamics should naturally be affected.

[Pds314]

On 11/28/2019 at 7:00 AM, pandaman said:

If material ablates away then the shape changes, so aerodynamics should naturally be affected.

That definitely isn't how it works with stock heat shields.

[linuxgurugamer]

On 11/28/2019 at 10:00 AM, pandaman said:

If material ablates away then the shape changes, so aerodynamics should naturally be affected.

Not a issue with KSP.  KSP doesn't take shape into account.  FAR might, however

[Bej Kerman]

On 11/20/2019 at 11:23 AM, linuxgurugamer said:

Because that would make it unplayable for new players.

 

How would it? I recall they asked for an option not a forced 'CAN'T SAVE VESSEL, USE ABLATOR'. I also recall that they wanted to SURVIVE re-entry, not have the deadliness increased.

[linuxgurugamer]

34 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

How would it? I recall they asked for an option not a forced 'CAN'T SAVE VESSEL, USE ABLATOR'. I also recall that they wanted to SURVIVE re-entry, not have the deadliness increased.

Right now stock parts survive a certain temperature, and then explode.  Simple to understand.

Start adding ablator to all parts, will just make it more confusing to the players.  

[Bej Kerman]

5 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Right now stock parts survive a certain temperature, and then explode.  Simple to understand.

Start adding ablator to all parts, will just make it more confusing to the players.  

By the logic of ablated wings being toggleable making the game harder for everyone, even with those with it disabled, adding heat shields makes it 'more confusing to the players' because there's one new slider for ablator.

[James M]

More stuff can be confusing yes. More options however is always preferred no matter who you are. Anyone can say, "Hm. I don't know what to do with this right now. I'll turn it off for now and maybe later come back to it." A perfect example being the Administration building. Being a better player now, I know how to make use of it. But you can bet that when I first started playing I never looked twice at that building because it didn't seem necessary at the time.