St4rdust

KSP Loading preview Rockomax Conglomerate RE-M3 "Mainsail"

Recommended Posts

Baaaaad take Squad, it looks too simple and plain. Come on, we need some elevl of detail to show that's its a proper rocket engine! More greeebles!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow. that is so much worse than the original mainsail. have you... seen a rocket engine before? because i have seen individual plastic legos with twice the detail and believability.

image0.jpg

maybe try using a reference image while modeling and texturing this thing. the old mainsail and new skipper at least have some greeble on them.

EDIT: this was dumb im sorry

Edited by SnailsAttack
:/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, SnailsAttack said:

wow. that is so much worse than the original mainsail. have you... seen a rocket engine before? because i have seen individual plastic legos with twice the detail and believability.

image0.jpg

maybe try using a reference image while modeling and texturing this thing. the old mainsail and new skipper at least have some greeble on them.

Given how this engine is a BE-4 of sorts, i would expect to have all the turbopumps and piping and then a boatail variant to add on. However, I see none of this. Compared to the new Skipper and old Mainsail, this looks awful. C’mon guys.

(in my opinion)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh...The bell looks sorta cool, but the shroud is weird looking. It needs some unshrouded variants too.

The Skipper was nice, but this, as others have already said, needs more detail. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be a fitting replacement for such a classic engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Needs more detail.

Also, do those two exhaust pipes have gimballing, because that would be a cool feature to have and give a reason to have two exhausts instead of 1 bigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You took away the interesting features from the mainsail and replaced them with.. nothing? The yellow piping and sharp angles near the top gave it some character, which is completely gone now. And while the new model does look like it's higher quality, I don't know if it's enough to make up for what was lost.

The Spark, Ant, Spider and Poodle revamps were amazing and added great quality and interesting visuals that I absolutely love to see, the Skipper was an improvement too. Take a look at those again and please rethink the Mainsail revamp.

Also, it looks like you took inspiration from a Vulcain engine, which isn't the closest to the Mainsail in function. If you want inspiration for a Mainsail, you might be better off looking at an F-1, a Merlin or maybe an RS-68.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, AlphaMensae said:

It reminds me of the back side of a horse....or...it's wearing pants! :huh:

can't... unsee

5 hours ago, splatn't™ said:

Given how this engine is a BE-4 of sorts, i would expect to have all the turbopumps and piping and then a boatail variant to add on. However, I see none of this. Compared to the new Skipper and old Mainsail, this looks awful. C’mon guys.

(in my opinion)

I'm not sure how to read this... are you saying the image from Snails is worse or that the new mainsail is worse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SnailsAttack said:

maybe try using a reference image while modeling and texturing this thing.

Think they used this one: 

800wm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with @sh1pman, that looks like it

But for some reason, the sheer size of the bell and that shiny metal cover makes it look super impressive.

I don't get that feeling looking at the new engine. I know it's supposed to be an inspiration, not copy, but still.

Maybe go with the flow, make it super shiny? To get that metallic feel? And I think it'll look a little bit better when actually mounted under a rocket. The engine and tank should complete themselves.

You know, like a real space shuttle, doesn't look very majestic on a runway after landing, totally like a brick with wings, but look at it on a launchpad ready for liftoff! Two different feelings about the same thing.

Honestly, I don't need change until I see it in its place. Then I'll decide.

 

EDIT: I think I see where the problem is. The gray part above the orange cover that is supposed to connect to the tank. If that was gone (bare variant maybe?) and the whole cover was widened to fit in 2.5m size, it could look better, even at the cost of making the bell slightly more narrow, as I understand it needs to fit in a decoupler. That alone should make it super bulky, as Mainsail should be. I'll do some Photoshop work but I cannot now.

EDIT2: I think that more people should give some actual feedback, instead of "meh, improve it".  I know many of you aren't graphic designers or anything, but it is you who will be looking at the engine most of the time, and you should know what can be done to make it look better. Just like you are reporting bugs. More detail, yes, but based on a photo above, you know what it's based on, so you can say what they could do about it, as I did. If they are reading (they do) they can note what the community wants to be changed and think about doing it, instead of walking in circles reading "it's ugly" all around. Mind you, this is a game, so they have to think about optimizations. They can't just slap a bazillion polygons on a model and pretend it's gonna work smooth.

As someone with art degree I tell you that constructive criticism is super important in art business, and this is art.

Edited by The Aziz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's the first time I prefer the old version to the revamped one, I'm a bit disappointed, it looks as he lost all its personality :(

(Yellow part above the bell, the flat-look of the nozzle)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, it appears the Vilcain II was the inspiration, but it went off the rails badly. While the model is so bland, it's the coloring that makes me think of the back side of a horse.... that orange juice slicer.... egads!

This is what Porkjet had planned for the Mainsail revamp:

iINdJyL.jpg

Having a hollow boattail would be a huge improvement.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

I think that more people should give some actual feedback, instead of "meh, improve it".  I know many of you aren't graphic designers or anything, but it is you who will be looking at the engine most of the time, and you should know what can be done to make it look better.

The issue is that a handful of users have given detail, broken down and justified critique of previews in the past and it has been met with either: 'radio silence' or 'I see your opinion and you're wrong'. Two resounding responses that show that the Producer, Game Director and Artists involved don't actually give two hoots about improving their design direction or taking on any feedback (except for the extremely questionable MK2 Lander Can concept... ).

To this point, a lot of users have become quite apathetic to the whole shebang and we are now being met with the same old excrements on different days and nothings going to change so we all just go, "meh, improve it" knowing that it's not gonna get better but what can we do? Nothing... except going install some mods that look decent instead and use those.

False promise and expectancy... two absolute killers.

(Sorry for being a Debbie Downer but he community can only bang their heads against the wall so much)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, AlphaMensae said:

This is what Porkjet had planned for the Mainsail revamp:

When you pay someone to make good designs and then decide to ignore said good designs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I've been looking on all these engine part revamps with a weary eye and could never quite articulate why I didn't like them. Then this morning on the toilet I had an epiphany.

Kerbal Space Program is, always has been, and I hope always will be a learning sandbox. It's a relatively simple environment in which people can learn how spaceflight roughly works. People have been known to spring for astrodynamics and aeronautics degrees *because* of their exposure to KSP.

However its weakest point as a learning tool has always been "how the actual rocket engines work". A rocket engine is so much more than just an engine bell, arguably a rocket can not have one and still function. And since time immortal KSP rocket engines have been "an engine bell, maybe some greebling, and not much else".

I guess my point is that by choosing consistently to opt for things like the new Mainsail's cover over where all the turbomachinery should go you're giving up an opportunity for a learning moment. Those moments that make KSP so magical in my eyes. I'm not saying we go in and make people design their own engines from scratch. But just by having that plumbing properly modeled you're starting a conversation.

"What does this pipe do? What do these bits do? What is this actuator for?" so on and so forth until eventually that person decides to go do some research for themselves. And then they're off to the races.

Like I said it's a missed opportunity not just for "better art" or "nicer models" because a part isn't just the texturing or the tri-count, it's a missed opportunity to spark somebody's curiosity about yet another facet of rocketry and perhaps teach them something new. Which, at the end of the day, is what KSP is all about.

I doubt that my concerns and thoughts will make it up the chain and we'll see change from Squad's design team, but I'm glad to have said my peace.

Thanks for listening (if y'all are listening).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, klgraham1013 said:

When you pay someone to make good designs and then decide to ignore said good designs.

When the small engine revamps came out, I had high hopes that Porkjet's ideas were being fulfilled, and looked forward to seeing the new Skipper and Mainsail in the style of the new Ant and Spider. Instead we get this garbage, a reversion to the Kerbals-are-morons "LOLsKerbal" ethos. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Poodmund said:

The issue is that a handful of users have given detail, broken down and justified critique of previews in the past and it has been met with either: 'radio silence' or 'I see your opinion and you're wrong'. Two resounding responses that show that the Producer, Game Director and Artists involved don't actually give two hoots about improving their design direction or taking on any feedback (except for the extremely questionable MK2 Lander Can concept... ).

Maybe there were some, I don't know, personally didn't have trouble with much enough to comment on it, well, except one example

On 3/5/2019 at 8:00 PM, SQUAD said:

Coming to Update 1.7, we are including a long requested quality-of-life feature that will allow you to toggle the altitude mode from Above Sea Level (ASL) to Above Ground Level (AGL) by simply clicking on the altimeter box. Hopefully this will help Kerbals avoid some crashes!

via Gfycat

 

That aside, I managed to shop something out

Now we know, that new Mainsail is based on Vulcain engine, and that is pretty clear when you place both side by side:

55kYSJf.png

Basically same thing. And yes it is obvious that it could get some polish here and there, and I mean material, current looks very matte, even if it reflects some light. So if you think about it, Vulcain in this form with a shroud is also very plain and simple. Everything complicated is hidden (but that does not mean it should stay like that in the game however).

Problem is, the real life first stage tank is much wider than the engine, so it has to have this mount or whatever.

9k1lhHg.png

But since our team wanted it to better fit with 2.5 size, they made the whole engine wider so that the bell could just fit inside an engine shroud, but kept the pipe cover in its original size, so they had to do something with the mount and came out with the above. Which is I think what causes the most controversy here, cuz it's just fat and nobody knows why it exists in the first place, since the rest below it is nearly the same diameter.

So I came up with poorly photoshopped idea of what could be done:

vWLeup1.png

Mount is removed, the pipe cover is made wider so it can be mounted under a 2.5m tank without issues, while the bell stays the same.

As for the "anything here" yes, I agree it could use some detail. Maybe another ring around the bell (some pictures of Vulcain show one), something around the bolts to make it more, uh, 3D? Plus, Idk, some foil-like details on the uppermost part of the whole thing?

I like the effort, I really do, I've waited for this engine to be revamped for so long, basically since the first revamp was announced, but I expected a little more. Honestly, some of the remaining old engines have more going on on them.

Then again, I'd love to see it on actual rocket to know if everything I said was needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not entirely sure I like this. It's definitely an improvement over the original, but I really hate those two pipes on the sides, and it needs a little more outside detail. 

Edited by DunaManiac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, AlphaMensae said:

Yep, it appears the Vilcain II was the inspiration, but it went off the rails badly. While the model is so bland, it's the coloring that makes me think of the back side of a horse.... that orange juice slicer.... egads!

This is what Porkjet had planned for the Mainsail revamp:

iINdJyL.jpg

Having a hollow boattail would be a huge improvement.

 

forgot about that beautiful, beautiful work!

6 hours ago, Poodmund said:

The issue is that a handful of users have given detail, broken down and justified critique of previews in the past and it has been met with either: 'radio silence' or 'I see your opinion and you're wrong'. Two resounding responses that show that the Producer, Game Director and Artists involved don't actually give two hoots about improving their design direction or taking on any feedback (except for the extremely questionable MK2 Lander Can concept... ).

To this point, a lot of users have become quite apathetic to the whole shebang and we are now being met with the same old excrements on different days and nothings going to change so we all just go, "meh, improve it" knowing that it's not gonna get better but what can we do? Nothing... except going install some mods that look decent instead and use those.

False promise and expectancy... two absolute killers.

(Sorry for being a Debbie Downer but he community can only bang their heads against the wall so much)

I'm not sure I agree on this... we've seen them before alter artwork designs and rework features etc due to player feedback - the useful kind anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, MR L A said:

forgot about that beautiful, beautiful work!

It's okay.  Squad forgot too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Aziz I try to avoid talking too much about the revamps in terms of any criticism, constructive or otherwise because I have what some people might call a competing product, and some would accuse me of pushing my own wares (which I'd rather not, I just want KSP to look nice, and I actively discourage comparisons in the revamp threads, please stop all). To be honest, I wouldn't bother criticizing the actual art here, it's not totally the execution that is failing this engine, it's the higher level design of the revamp.

We can't say for sure how Squad does their internal work, but I'd say, here's how I would expect a company to take the design process for the revamp

First, we'd define the project-level goals. These are the top-level, 'we're going to spend money on exactly this', corporate or PM-defined goals we might infer from this project

  1. We want to increase the quality of the engine models: seems obvious from the goal of revamp
  2. We want to represent a real engine: personally I think they usually don't these days, but since it's clearly a Vulcain 1 I'll throw it in

This results in a create-an-engine-revamp activity, which gets passed to the art lead and team. Then I would think that the art lead and the assigned artist would sit down and define some real design goals that come out of the two project goals. Here's what I, personally, would see as the design goals for a Mainsail revamp. They're very vague and fluffy, and should be easy to fulfill and I think most of the community would agree with them. 

  1. The engine should maintain the lore of the original: ''A monster of an engine for heavy lifting purposes, the Mainsail's power rivals that of entire small nations'. This is... well, this is KSP's most iconic engine, along with the big orange tank. 
  2. The engine's art style should match up with what we've done before: because we should be consistent
  3. The engine should have the features we've been putting in our recent engine redos: like variants, and emissive textures
  4. If we're to use a real engine, that should be a powerful booster engine. Makes sense, right? 
  5. The engine should look and feel powerful. As the community's comments on this thread do seem to indicate, this would be quite relevant. It's the vaguest on this list but arguably the most important.

So we get these goals, and the artist goes out and does the revamp. Tadaa. Thread up.

What Squad has come up with for the Mainsail here does, technically fulfill the project goals: It is an increase in technical quality and it is based on a real engine. In that very basic sense, mission accomplished.

I think this engine fails on all of the detailed goals above though.

  1. The engine should maintain the lore of the original:
    • This engine does not look like a monster engine that has power output equivalent to large cities. I don't know if I need to justify this, but it just doesn't seem at all powerful to me. Is this my iconic KSP booster engine? This may be personal opinion.
  2. The engine's art style should match up with what we've done before:
    • Squad is terrible at consistency. Like absolutely bonkers awful. It had seemed however that recently there had been some improvements - the 1.8 service bays are more consistent with other things, and though the Moar Boosters added in the recent update have horrendously large textures for what they are, I can't deny that finally there was some white colour matching. Yay!
    • However, this engine is very inconsistent with engine work that has been done in the fairly recent past. More recently there have been revamps to the Terrier and Spark that have been, well, quite different than this. Different detail level, different pipe work detail. We're using new styles here that have not been seen before 
  3. The engine should have the features we've been putting in our recent engine redos:
    • Hey, partial success! We added an emissive texture and there are color variants
    • However, I'd ask - do the community members want a bell colour change or the ability to cluster engines?
  4. If we're to use a real engine, that should be a powerful booster engine.
  5. The engine should look and feel powerful.
    • Derives from good execution of 1) and 5). Doesn't seem like there is success here. Perhaps there was an idea of 2x exhausts = strong and powerful? Egh.

These goals though... they're mine. They're probably not the ones that were used internally, if there was any process or goal-setting or objectives used at all. Maybe they hit all their goals - maybe the goal was to knock out a redone engine in < 6 hours or something like that - I can't say. 

All I can say is that I look at the results and I am sad. There is technical execution of quality here - there is edgewear and consistent colours which are always great additions and I applaud Squad for maybe finally telling the artists what white hex code to use. However my personal opinion is that the design of this new part doesn't work, and it needs to be taken back to the drawing board and the lead artist needs to have a think about what they want to accomplish with the revamp.

 

 

Edited by Nertea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Poodmund said:

I feel like the engine revamps lately have been getting more simplistic and of a lower effort... like, some of the Making History engines (that aside from their logical flaws) at least had some visual interest and a good balance of greebling on them. 

RE-I2_Shrouded.png

This was work done years ago. Engines are the lifeblood of the part catalogue in KSP and they should look like rocket engines. Granted, some first stage motors often have cowling/boat tail shrouds for aero reasons but there is so much more that could be done to inject some visual interest into the part. Make the shroud a hollow shroud and show the internal plumbing; this would also allow for the gimbal to be visually identified and show it working within the shroud.

LzdJf64.png

This whole identified region, I have no idea what's going on here. Is this the level that the design team is striding for from here on out? Previously we had some promising pieces coming out like the bare variants of the Ant and Spider engines that had increasing visual interest (albeit of a slightly different style due to the increased detail level) but this and the Skipper revamp almost seem like its going backwards the other way. 

I hope all the feedback is listened to. Seems a lot of opinions are being made about this.

Let's also not forget that ReStock has been doing this but much better. How does a development team fall behind their modders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really feeling this one, sorry.  It does look like the Vulcain, but I'm not a fan of that look especially with all the pipes and fun stuff covered up.

If I'm playing with a visual cool factor as my priority and not mathematical efficiency, I'll probably choose the Mastodon every time over this revamped Mainsail.

200px-KE-1_Full.png200px-KE-1_Mid.png200px-KE-1_Bare.png

 

I would much rather have 3 variants like that than be able to switch from orange to silver like the revamp. 

The revamp doesn't look or feel powerful, visually.  I'd like something that looks more like a Mastodon or Skiff from Making History. Greebles, man. 

The art style from the Spider and Ant revamps is more the direction I would like to see.  This preview seems very matte and dull with the textures.

I would much prefer the 3 designs of porkjet in variant form than this revamp engine.

No offense to the creator of the engine, its certainly better than I can do.  I aim to be constructive in my criticism.

Edited by klesh
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Let's also not forget that ReStock has been doing this but much better. How does a development team fall behind their modders?

Let's respect Nertea and leave Restock out of the discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.