A Fictional Biology Question

[Spacescifi]

 

What are the pros and cons of having suction plates like these on palms and fingers? Still have fingernails. Also have them on toes and footsoles.

 

Pros: Extra grip. Each sucker can individuallly distort to pinch grab stuff. Plus they shed and regrow with use. Some secretion adhesion abiliity for extra grip or climbing

Cons: Cannot think of any can you?

EDIT: Not including the taste ability for obvious reasons. Would make life too gross.

 

What do you think? So far I can see this as only a win win humanoid ability. Maybe you can enlighten me futther if I missed anything?

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Scotius]

How much brain\nervous system capacity are you prepared to sacrifice? Because octopuses had to detach two-thirds of their major nerves for the task of controlling arms (which includes sucker control). Also, while sets of suckers on appendages may look like a good idea, in reality they would greatly interfere with delicate tasks requiring precise manipulation of small objects.

I don't think we'll see an octopus knitting eight-sleeved sweater for herself anytime soon

[kerbiloid]

With such things on bottom, humans would not need seat belts.

Edited January 11, 2020 by kerbiloid

[KerikBalm]

They wouldn't be well suited to carrying large loads, you wouldn't want to have your hands covered in such soft and delicate structures if you were swinging from tree branches or climbing on rough rocks for instance.

[RuBisCO]

Tasting everything you touch might have downsides, at least if you have a sense of disgust. 

[Okhin]

Well, if you have that many sensor input, you'll be extremely different and alien. I mean, octopuses can taste your blood through your skin with their sucker, to the point that they can now if you've took some medicine or not (for more info about octopus, go read The Soul of an octopus, it's a very good book about extremely interesting and alien creatures).

Even if you don't have the taste, the touch surfaces of such suckers is greatly augmented. And, if you spent time flying in the trees, you've develop an acute sense of touch for instance, which can help you to know that this specific branch is rotten and that you cannot uses it to carry your own weight.

From a carrying stuff around point of view, suckers are extremely efficient. I mean, octopus can exert pressure in the hundreds or thousands kilograms per square centimeters with only one of them (they can inadvertently pop your eyeballs from your head for instance).

The cons are … well, your very alien from current humans. To the point that your perception of environment is much different and I cannot think you could explain how you perceive the world to someone who does not have such suckers. Also, if you want the whole tentikle thing, then you don't really have bones in the part around the sucker cups, which would makes standing up quite hard. Except in liquid or in low-G environment. So yeah, the not being able to walk might be an issue, but again, depends on your environment. Like all pros and cons I guess :p

[Spacescifi]

12 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

They wouldn't be well suited to carrying large loads, you wouldn't want to have your hands covered in such soft and delicate structures if you were swinging from tree branches or climbing on rough rocks for instance.

Soft but but regenerative and remarkably flexible. They shed and grow new ones often.

8 hours ago, Okhin said:

Well, if you have that many sensor input, you'll be extremely different and alien. I mean, octopuses can taste your blood through your skin with their sucker, to the point that they can now if you've took some medicine or not (for more info about octopus, go read The Soul of an octopus, it's a very good book about extremely interesting and alien creatures).

Even if you don't have the taste, the touch surfaces of such suckers is greatly augmented. And, if you spent time flying in the trees, you've develop an acute sense of touch for instance, which can help you to know that this specific branch is rotten and that you cannot uses it to carry your own weight.

From a carrying stuff around point of view, suckers are extremely efficient. I mean, octopus can exert pressure in the hundreds or thousands kilograms per square centimeters with only one of them (they can inadvertently pop your eyeballs from your head for instance).

The cons are … well, your very alien from current humans. To the point that your perception of environment is much different and I cannot think you could explain how you perceive the world to someone who does not have such suckers. Also, if you want the whole tentikle thing, then you don't really have bones in the part around the sucker cups, which would makes standing up quite hard. Except in liquid or in low-G environment. So yeah, the not being able to walk might be an issue, but again, depends on your environment. Like all pros and cons I guess :p

The sucker plates remain on hunanoud hands and feet as per the OP.

I knew it would hardly work the other way. Not for an Earth world clone more or less.

 

One more possible con: Crud getting stuck between your sucker plates on your hands or feet.

In water this is little problem for an octopus. But for a dry humanoid it is.

Handwashing and foot washing will need to be more thorough than it is for humans. They literally have nooks and crannied on their hands and feet that can easily become grimy.

The suckers would be small,  they would have to be to maximize grip on a finger or palm.

 

9 hours ago, RuBisCO said:

Tasting everything you touch might have downsides, at least if you have a sense of disgust. 

 

They need a sense of disgust I would imagine, just so they do not try everything trial and error style.

Even animals have a sense of disgust, although it is more regarding bitter tastes than actual unclean dirty stuff.

[RuBisCO]

14 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

They need a sense of disgust I would imagine, just so they do not try everything trial and error style.

Even animals have a sense of disgust, although it is more regarding bitter tastes than actual unclean dirty stuff.

Animal sense of disgust if very different from ours, my dog loves rolling in snake vomit and eating horse poop, but a chopped pickles she will instantly spit out. 

[Spacescifi]

9 hours ago, RuBisCO said:

Animal sense of disgust if very different from ours, my dog loves rolling in snake vomit and eating horse poop, but a chopped pickles she will instantly spit out. 

 

Indeed. Part of the fun and challenge of creating fictional humanoids involves how human or animal you wanba make them.

For the sake of civility, no I would not have them jave an animal sense of disgust.

Since it would be rather absurd... having a humanoid race with warp drives who enjoys eating poop and rolling in urine, but is avoids pickles like the plague.

 

It is a human tendency to associate cleanliness with intelligence, and the lack thereof as an indication of less.

Generally speaking.... I also believe it to be true, although not always when applied to specific situations.

[magnemoe]

29 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Indeed. Part of the fun and challenge of creating fictional humanoids involves how human or animal you wanba make them.

For the sake of civility, no I would not have them jave an animal sense of disgust.

Since it would be rather absurd... having a humanoid race with warp drives who enjoys eating poop and rolling in urine, but is avoids pickles like the plague.

 

It is a human tendency to associate cleanliness with intelligence, and the lack thereof as an indication of less.

Generally speaking.... I also believe it to be true, although not always when applied to specific situations.

Again http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm does a lot of this. 
I guess most aliens will rely more on smell than humans. 

Suction plates, they make most sense underwater then trying to grab fish and many other sea creatures. 
Not so less on dry land trying to grab stuff with feather or fur or grabbing rock or bark, not many natural items on land an suction cup would work on, amusingly human skin is one of them

And if you evolved intelligence at the trailing end of an line of apex predators prey will develop counter measures like slime, ridges or spikes who denied suction cups their primary usefulness. 
This is more useful. 

replace the wooden center with an bone if purely aquatic, you could also use part of an shark jaw an shortcut. 
Use an bone harpoon against larger prey however, like the shark you needed the jaw from. 
Killing an boss to get good weapons is pretty old by now however
 

Edited January 12, 2020 by magnemoe

[Spacescifi]

7 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Again http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm does a lot of this. 
I guess most aliens will rely more on smell than humans. 

Suction plates, they make most sense underwater then trying to grab fish and many other sea creatures. 
Not so less on dry land trying to grab stuff with feather or fur or grabbing rock or bark, not many natural items on land an suction cup would work on, amusingly human skin is one of them

And if you evolved intelligence at the trailing end of an line of apex predators prey will develop counter measures like slime, ridges or spikes who denied suction cups their primary usefulness. 
This is more useful. 

replace the wooden center with an bone if purely aquatic, you could also use part of an shark jaw an shortcut. 
Use an bone harpoon against larger prey however, like the shark you needed the jaw from. 
Killing an boss to get good weapons is pretty old by now however
 

 

I included adhesive secretions with the suckers for that very reason. 

Or if a a character wanted ti cheat they could just wet their hand and not dry it before latching onto something.

The cool thing about the suckers is they can detach at will.

And yea, thanks, slimey abd thorny animals could and would easily counter my race's big advantage.

 

Thanks.

[magnemoe]

20 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

I included adhesive secretions with the suckers for that very reason. 

Or if a a character wanted ti cheat they could just wet their hand and not dry it before latching onto something.

The cool thing about the suckers is they can detach at will.

And yea, thanks, slimey abd thorny animals could and would easily counter my race's big advantage.

 

Thanks.

Note that one medium would be to have dimples rater than fingerprints and the option to deepen the dimples. Not as good but something an mermaid could use and the only downside would be an weird fingerprint. 
As I see it you can not combine human level fingers with claws you can retract, or rater you could get an 2 cm claw if most of the claw mechanic was in the last digit bypassing the bone. 
More realistic you are digtigrade with an lion rear paws and more human like fronts or 6 limbs rear is lion, center is chimpanzee front, front is human like. 
For fun let them flip rear legs for braking then running down an tree. 

 

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Note that one medium would be to have dimples rater than fingerprints and the option to deepen the dimples. Not as good but something an mermaid could use and the only downside would be an weird fingerprint. 
As I see it you can not combine human level fingers with claws you can retract, or rater you could get an 2 cm claw if most of the claw mechanic was in the last digit bypassing the bone. 
More realistic you are digtigrade with an lion rear paws and more human like fronts or 6 limbs rear is lion, center is chimpanzee front, front is human like. 
For fun let them flip rear legs for braking then running down an tree. 

 

Off subject but I am aware of this and have brainstormed quite a bit with interesting results.

I believe you can have retractable humanoid claws but not like what is depicted in the media.

 

Look at one of your four fingers but ignore the thumb. 

Now look at the first joint on one of your fingers. That is where a retractable claw could go. On the forefinger joints of the four fingers but not the thumb.

Now close your four fingers and imagine you have unleashed claws on the forefinger joints. You could make some decent swipes, with less the possibility of breaking off a finger than if the claw was on your finger tip.

Animals with claws have comparatively shorter digits than we do for good reason, since it prevents them from breaking or snapping them as easily.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

17 hours ago, RuBisCO said:

my dog loves rolling in snake vomit and eating horse poop

You should limit its internet access, but it's too late.

***

Animals find the smell of hydrocarbons disgusting.
Unlike many (most of?) humans.

On one hand, that's normal, the dogs and cats usually don't meet petrol or asphalt in wild nature.
On the other hand, where did our ape ancestors do?
Conclusion: the human species was designed to mine oil and use it.

[sevenperforce]

Might make sense if humans had evolved from aquatic apes rather than arboreal and savanna apes. Most objects on land are not well-suited for suction in comparison to opposable thumbs. Wood, grass, fur, dirt, etc. -- most stuff encountered by terrestrial apes is simply not smooth enough to allow for suctioning. Opposable thumbs are where it's at.

Edited January 14, 2020 by sevenperforce

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

aquatic apes

(Let me plagiarize a Prometheus parody video).

"They (Aliens) look like a mix of dolphins and macaques. So, I call them dolphokakas."

2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

. Most objects on land are not well-suited for suction in comparison to opposable thumbs. Wood, grass, fur, dirt, etc. --

Bones are. And they are hardly edible for predators.

I like that theory that the proto-humans were forced scavengers. It explains the suction, the bipedalism (to carry a skull away to a hide), the ability to make and use maces and stones.
Wait while a lion kills something and gets full, the hienas drive him away from the corpse, then gather the thick bull skull and thickest bones before ants get inside, take them away to your hide (carrying in hands and running on your two), crash with a mace and stones, and suck out several kilograms of fatty flesh.

Also it explains the early adoption of fire. See the natural forest firestorm, run away to a safe place, then return and have a barbeque.
If still hungry, take a burning branch and throw it to the survived part of forest to burn it, too, and collect more barbeques.
Carry a burning branch away, feed it with dry leaves, and burn a forest on your choice to proceed.
A typical scavenger strategy, later resulting into pottery and the physics of plasma.

Also otherwise why do we like so much the in-game loot and items collecting?

Edited January 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Terwin]

3 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Most objects on land are not well-suited for suction in comparison to opposable thumbs. Wood, grass, fur, dirt, etc. -- most stuff encountered by terrestrial apes is simply not smooth enough to allow for suctioning. Opposable thumbs are where it's at.

 

59 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Bones are. And they are hardly edible for predators.

Not so much.

Bones are porous and tend to have lots of things sticking to them, making it very hard to suckers to grasp them unless they have been fully cleaned and polished(at which point there is not likely to be anything left worth eating)

Also, most predators don't have a lot of problems with cracking open bones to get at the fatty goodness inside. (ever see a dog crack open a bone?  That is one of the reasons you don't give them cooked chicken bones, as the cooked hollow bones may splinter and cut the mouth or throat as opposed to raw bones(hollow or not) which are softer and not prone to splintering)

Even heavy skulls with horns on top tend to have other parts that are much thinner and easier to open.

[kerbiloid]

16 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Bones are porous and tend to have lots of things sticking to them, making it very hard to suckers to grasp them unless they have been fully cleaned and polished(at which point there is not likely to be anything left worth eating)

When you crash a hollow bone from a leg, you get two pipes full of marrow. It's a known delicacy in fairy tales and real life.
The brain capsule is also enough strong and contains the brain and the tissues.
 

16 minutes ago, Terwin said:

ever see a dog crack open a bone? 

Yes. And never saw it prefers pipe bones, spines, and skulls when has soft meat and liver.

The predators start eating from soft parts in the stomach and chest. So, if a hominid is smart and quick, he can steal the hard parts left by the predators for later usage, instead of scavenger birds and insects.
So, the hominid is not a competitor for the cats and dogs, it's a competitors for eagles and ants.
The aspic is made of the soft remains on the bones and skulls after you take away the meat. And it's enough much to eat.
Also we have long fingers to get the soft remains where the jaws can't reach.

Edited January 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Terwin]

8 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Yes. And never saw it prefers pipe bones, spines, and skulls when has soft meat and liver.

The predators start eating from soft parts in the stomach and chest. So, if a hominid is smart and quick, he can steal the hard parts left by the predators for later usage, instead of scavenger birds and insects.
So, the hominid is not a competitor for the cats and dogs, it's a competitors for eagles and ants.
The aspic is made of the soft remains on the bones and skulls after you take away the meat. And it's enough much to eat.
Also we have long fingers to get the soft remains where the jaws can't reach.

If you follow the wolves as they hunt, why would they not decide to eat you as easier prey?

If you don't, how will you find the kill(assuming there is anything left) before the other scavengers do?

 

Have you ever known a dog to ignore food, even after it just ate?

They are happy to eat until they throw up, then eat some more.

Lots of predators will also take their kill and hide it from scavengers to eat more later(or just stay there and guard it).

 

Also, the lion does not leave it's kill to the hyenas, it scares off the hyenas so that it can eat their kill, then when it leaves the hyenas eat was the lion did not steal.

 

Vultures tend to be successful because:

a) they can easily watch a large area for kills while safe from ground animals

b) they can wait for the predator to leave the kill while both near-by and safe from the predator(even 20' up tends to be pretty much out of reach for most land-based animals)

c) they can quickly run away from the kill to a safe place where the original predator or it's competitors cannot reach.(it is very very hard for even a pack of ground animals to corner one that can fly).

Without those, the vulture either starves or becomes lunch.

 

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scavenger 

Quote

Obligate scavenging is rare among vertebrates, due to the difficulty of finding enough carrion without expending too much energy. In vertebrates, only vultures and possibly some pterosaurs are obligate scavengers, as terrestrial soaring flyers are the only animals able to find enough carrion.

more:

Quote

Most scavenging animals are facultative scavengers that gain most of their food through other methods, especially predation. Many large carnivores that hunt regularly, such as hyenas and jackals, but also animals rarely thought of as scavengers, such as African lions, leopards, and wolves will scavenge if given the chance. They may also use their size and ferocity to intimidate the original hunters (the cheetah is a notable exception). Almost all scavengers above insect size are predators and will hunt if not enough carrion is available, as few ecosystems provide enough dead animals year-round to keep its scavengers fed on that alone. Scavenging wild dogs and crows frequently exploit roadkill.

This strongly suggests to me that a terrestrial scavenger is not a viable option in an earth-like environment.

[sevenperforce]

28 minutes ago, Terwin said:

If you follow the wolves as they hunt, why would they not decide to eat you as easier prey?

A pack of humans is much more dangerous than a pack of wolves. A bunch of dudes in good shape with spears can easily rout a pack of wolves or a pride of lions. An angry herd of elephants is about the only thing that can reliably beat a group of determined pretechnological humans, and they aren't carnivores.

We are also bipedal, so we have a massive endurance advantage. We cannot sprint nearly as fast as a wolf, lion, or antelope, but we can jog behind an antelope on the savanna for hours until it drops dead of exhaustion (or at least until it is so exhausted it just stands there and lets us spear it). If there is available game, we can work together and catch it and kill it. So for us, it is the availability of game, not competition with other predators, which is our limiting factor. As a result, our guts never had a need to optimize for digestion of rotten meat, like scavengers.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

If you follow the wolves as they hunt, why would they not decide to eat you as easier prey?

If your bunch is watching a hunting lion in a steppe. It's Africa, 2 mln y ago, not a winter forest.
How do the monkeys bunches not get eaten by a leopard? Same thing.

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

If you don't, how will you find the kill(assuming there is anything left) before the other scavengers do?

When the scavengers start flying there from trees and jackals are approaching.
So, it's our turn to drive them away with sticks and stones and steal the polished bones with marrow inside.

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

Have you ever known a dog to ignore food, even after it just ate?

They are happy to eat until they throw up, then eat some more.

How do the eagles and foxes eat after leos and hienas? They still have enough food in the skeleton.

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

Also, the lion does not leave it's kill to the hyenas

Afaik, that's how the hyenas eat after lions. They just get him, and the full lion just walks away from the nasty freaks.
Everyone has its turn, that's how the scavengers get their piece of food.

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

Obligate scavenging is rare among vertebrates, due to the difficulty of finding enough carrion without expending too much energy. In vertebrates, only vultures and possibly some pterosaurs are obligate scavengers, as terrestrial soaring flyers are the only animals able to find enough carrion.

Who says obligate. Just facultative ones. But when you are thrown away from the jungles by bigger apes, that's not so much choice except competing with real scavengers (eagles, crows, foxes, insects) and with diggers like boars who can dig out edible roots.

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

This strongly suggests to me that a terrestrial scavenger is not a viable option in an earth-like environment.

A bare-skin bipedal predator monkey with a stone, stick, and a torch is also a fantastic creature,
Still we are here.

44 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

An angry herd of elephants is about the only thing that can reliably beat a group of determined pretechnological humans

And a rhino. He's blind and stupid, but that's not his problem.

Afaik, leopard is the most dangerous human-killer, and the main natural antagonist of them.
Hippos also. They're swines biologically and morally.

44 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

As a result, our guts never had a need to optimize for digestion of rotten meat, like scavengers.

No need in rotten meat when you scavenge fresh one, right after the bigger eaters.

Edited January 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Scotius]

Couple of things:

We are talking about Africa 2 millions of years ago. A big, mostly pristine continent which just began the process of drying. From all we know there was a lot more of pleasant livable place than today. And much more megafauna wandering around and occasionally dying. All our ancestors would have to do, was raise their heads above grass and bushes and look for gathering vultures. And then run fast - for which they were well adapted already, as fossil finds and preserved foot tracks indicate.

Brain and bone marrow. Quality food full of important, normally hard to get nutrients. Phosphorus for example - vitally important for the development of nervous system. Brains of vertebrates are excellent source of this element. If you can include brain matter in your diet even semi-regularly, it would be a clear advantage for your offspring. Also, all this tasty, squishy goodness is well protected by thick, hard bones. Not only from predators and small scavengers - from spoiling too, to a degree. Even when rest of the skeleton was picked clean or started to rot, there would be chance that marrow in big bones could be still edible.

And finally - no one accuses our ancestors of being dedicated carrion eaters For all we know, they mostly lived off fruits, nuts, leaves and tubers. Animal proteins were provided by gathered insects, small vertebrates, occasionally raided bird nest or a chance find of a young gazelle. But if a horde of Australopithecines found a carcass with useable meat? Heck yeah they would make good use of it

[magnemoe]

41 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Couple of things:

We are talking about Africa 2 millions of years ago. A big, mostly pristine continent which just began the process of drying. From all we know there was a lot more of pleasant livable place than today. And much more megafauna wandering around and occasionally dying. All our ancestors would have to do, was raise their heads above grass and bushes and look for gathering vultures. And then run fast - for which they were well adapted already, as fossil finds and preserved foot tracks indicate.

Brain and bone marrow. Quality food full of important, normally hard to get nutrients. Phosphorus for example - vitally important for the development of nervous system. Brains of vertebrates are excellent source of this element. If you can include brain matter in your diet even semi-regularly, it would be a clear advantage for your offspring. Also, all this tasty, squishy goodness is well protected by thick, hard bones. Not only from predators and small scavengers - from spoiling too, to a degree. Even when rest of the skeleton was picked clean or started to rot, there would be chance that marrow in big bones could be still edible.

And finally - no one accuses our ancestors of being dedicated carrion eaters For all we know, they mostly lived off fruits, nuts, leaves and tubers. Animal proteins were provided by gathered insects, small vertebrates, occasionally raided bird nest or a chance find of a young gazelle. But if a horde of Australopithecines found a carcass with useable meat? Heck yeah they would make good use of it

Makes some sense, stealing kills is pretty common. cheetahs suffer this a lot as they are good at taking down fast animals but are pretty weak so lions and hyenas take lots of their kills. 

[kerbiloid]

Also, besides Simba, we keep an eye on Pumba.
When we see that Pumba stops near a bush and starts digging and digging and eating something, we grab the sticks and stones, run to him, drive Pumba away, and dig the roots ourselves.
Then again, drop the tools, grab the goods, and run away to our den, squish them with same stones and eat.

So, our ancestors were delinquent scavengers of savannah, terrorizing the weakers with primitive handmade weapons to rob their score (polished bones or edible roots), and fearing of police higher predators, waiting until they get away to crawl out from a hide.
After stealing the score, our ancestors dropped the single-use weapon, grabbed the goods with hands and quickly ran away. Then they were sitting and beating the loot (bones or roots) with stones to extract food (nothing more abstract than food didn't visit their imagination).
The lovely place for the hide was derelict building abandoned construction site some chasm in rocks where they can stay invisible for others while eating and playing cards, with a passway which they can watch.
If they saw an inspector leopard in the passway, they started screaming and throwing stones at him, making him to find less loud place and eat a donut.

Also they liked to sit squatting and wear tracksuits and sneakers, like prehistorical goodfellas.

[Scotius]

Amusing image, but essentially true one. Today lions rarely bother to chase and kill jackals. It stands to reason big predators wouldn't bother with pursuit of a band of noisy apes fleeing with a handfuls of bones or scraps. Especially if there was still meat on the skeleton. It just wouldn't be energy efficient.