Marcus Aseth

I won't pay a 50€ price tag on this game unless the single parent limitation is lifted

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After yesterday my hype for KSP 2 almost dropped to 0, this is the reason why I won't pay a 50€ price tag on  this game, and also why I think this title doesn't deserve me hyped about it:

I was playing KSP 1, got 2 radial decouplers vertically lined up, attach a booster to them (thinking it would have enough stability with 2 anchor points) but because of ksp system of a single "parent" object, the booster was held only by 1 decoupler... after all this years, still this limitations...
People might try to work around this using a strut (which is ugly imo) but is even worse with the dlc that adds hinges: if you want 2 hinges to push out an element from 2 points (again, the example of a booster, pushed out for arbitrary reasons), you can't, only one hinge does the push because of the single parent system.
Another example would be a folding hinge holding a leg (with 4 around your vessel) which would be so unstable the vehicle will shake like if it had parkinson and occasionally build up so much "woobliness" it will start jumping and doing backflips on it's own for no reason... if you want two folding hinges holding this leg for stability reasons, you can't, same reason as before, single parent system.
 
Something that show the lack of polish: try to place radially 4 hinges with a structural element at the end, then 4 radial struts from the hinge's parent to the structural element. Now if you fold the hinge in the editor, the strut cable will only be folded for the one you manually placed, and not for the 3 copies made by radial symmetry. This might look like a small thing, but is the kind of thing where you can measure how much a developer care about quality and polish of his product.
 
And they move forward to KSP 2... after seeying the painstaking dedication from Factorio team to improve and polish their game to perfection and beyond, I can't give a sliver of trust anymore to a developer that simply moves on to the next title leaving things half assed in the current one, this behaviour for me is on par with Egosoft (X-Rebirth and X-Foundations, one backstab to the fans after the other)
 
And they even bragged about keeping all the same physics dynamics from KSP 1 (and I fear this imply they won't actually change a thing regarding the single parent system) in an interview with Scott Manley... which to me seems a very convenient way to be lazy about it simply because many players loved how KSP 1 is... the reason "it worked well enough" is still no reason to not try to do better than that, so my trust in them has fallen even lower after hearing that.
 
They will do an ok job, I don't doubt that, but not near to my previous expectations for KSP 2, and thus this is the reason I won't fall for this hype train.
 
This message is in the hope the developer will happen to read it and re-consider things on the light of it, maybe as far as going back to KSP1 and improving the 2 things mentioned.
Anyway, let me know how you feel about this (though being the reader people that probabably usually frequent this forum, I suspect I'll be outnumbered 10:1 in this "non-mainstream" opinion, but I'm prepared for that)
Edited by Marcus Aseth

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1 hour ago, Marcus Aseth said:

 I can't give a sliver of trust anymore to a developer that simply moves on to the next title leaving things half assed in the current one

It isn't the same developer.

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22 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

It isn't the same developer.

you mean they can't go back and fix this things on KSP 1?

But still, given the situation I wouldn't mind that as long as they do it better on KSP2, but from what I got from the interview, this is basically a porting/refactoring of KSP1 code, I didn't saw any indication this will not have a single parent system for parts.

in this video at 4:14 you can see those boosters with a single anchor point that wobble like crazy, I think anyone would try to use two decoupler there for stability rather than a central one, so the fact they showcase this lead me to believe they won't change a single thing on that regard, so until proven otherwise, can't get hyped about this team/work either.

 

Edited by Marcus Aseth

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1. It's not the same developer.

2. KSP gets regular updates so what are you blabbing about this game being abandoned?

3. If you want the look of two decouplers holding your booster, just strut the booster to the decoupler and advanced move it.

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I've heard worse reasons to avoid buying things. Just don't sit there all mad that you can't play. When you start really jonesing for the game just buy it.

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20 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

1. It's not the same developer.

2. KSP gets regular updates so what are you blabbing about this game being abandoned?

3. If you want the look of two decouplers holding your booster, just strut the booster to the decoupler and advanced move it.

1) was already mentioned above, also I've answered to it (though might not be visible since new user need aproval on posts)

2)and yet after all those years you can only have a booster supported by 1 decoupler rather than 2 for stability, to me seems I have plenty reason to complain about.

3)I've already said that in my first post: "People might try to work around this using a strut (which is ugly imo) " and the reason you have to work-around this is exactly my point - the product isn't polished

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42 minutes ago, Marcus Aseth said:

1) was already mentioned above, also I've answered to it (though might not be visible since new user need aproval on posts)

2)and yet after all those years you can only have a booster supported by 1 decoupler rather than 2 for stability, to me seems I have plenty reason to complain about.

3)I've already said that in my first post: "People might try to work around this using a strut (which is ugly imo) " and the reason you have to work-around this is exactly my point - the product isn't polished

  

1 hour ago, Marcus Aseth said:

you mean they can't go back and fix this things on KSP 1?

 

I think you may be underestimating the difficulty in addressing the issue of parent parts. Like you I wish for this as well, for multiple decoupler attachments sure, but even more so for closed loop docking port setups. But i think the issue is far more imbedded in the code than maybe you are giving it credit for and making small changes to extremely fundamental systems leads to a great deal of chaos down the line. Keep in mind this game was originally coded by 1 guy who never made a game before that was then handed off to an inexperienced indy studio and has still turned into something shinning to the extent that it does. 

I too hope this issue is addressed in KSP 2 as the game is being redeveloped from the ground up by a more experienced studio with a fair bit of resources backing it as well as the benefit of hindsight looking at the shortcomings of KSP 1. This isn't a new problem either, I've seen others bring it up in the past and it is a known issue. But calling this game unpolished and neglected is beyond a stretch, there are very few games that get quality updates as frequent as this and we're blessed to have devs still refining this gem nearly 10 years after its launch.

Keep your chin up, KSP 2 might bring some nice new horizons :)

Edited by mcwaffles2003

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Then wait for a sale.

You can hide the struts pretty well if you’re careful.

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I've only ever been annoyed with this limitation when building circular structures. Judicious use of autostrut plus the occasional manual strut are enough for >99% of my use cases.

But okay I guess. Everybody has their pet peeve and/or blocker feature.

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1 hour ago, Marcus Aseth said:

3)I've already said that in my first post: "People might try to work around this using a strut (which is ugly imo) " and the reason you have to work-around this is exactly my point - the product isn't polished

Struts aren't ugly when you can't even see them, so what's the problem here?

Also, have you never heard of autostrut before?

Edited by T1mo98

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1 hour ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

 I think you may be underestimating the difficulty in addressing the issue of parent parts. Like you I wish for this as well, for multiple decoupler attachments sure, but even more so for closed loop docking port setups. But i think the issue is far more imbedded in the code than maybe you are giving it credit for and making small changes to extremely fundamental systems leads to a great deal of chaos down the line. Keep in mind this game was originally coded by 1 guy who never made a game before that was then handed off to an inexperienced indy studio and has still turned into something shinning to the extent that it does. 

I too hope this issue is addressed in KSP 2 as the game is being redeveloped from the ground up by a more experienced studio with a fair bit of resources backing it as well as the benefit of hindsight looking at the shortcomings of KSP 1. This isn't a new problem either, I've seen others bring it up in the past and it is a known issue.

I agree with you, this is probably by no mean a simple change - but the game comes with an AAA title price tag - so wouldn't be fair if they simply recycle all the core code without adding any improvement on it, for how I see it.

I'll still keep an eye open on it looking for some indications of those changes, even though that interview didn't gave me any reason to believe this changes will be made. So we'll see :)

 

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1 minute ago, Marcus Aseth said:

wouldn't be fair if they simply recycle all the core code without adding any improvement on it

This is the fundamental purpose KSP 2 is being made, to change that core code and build from it instead of asking squad to tear the entirety of KSP 1 down and rebuild it from scratch under the same title for almost no new purchases (essentially for free). This is also probably why it was handed off to a more experienced studio. The people building this thing are genuine fans of the game, some with 1000s of hours in game. It's obviously too early to tell since we dont have the game yet, but we're probably pretty fortunate to get game devs that are genuine fans instead of random people who only care about a paycheck for a game they wouldnt bother playing.

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2 minutes ago, Khesperus said:

Wait, I'm confused. Is this guy complaining about having to use struts?

Image result for falcon 9 struts

More so the parent part system, which is a bit of an inconvenience when trying to make any looped part sets like habitation rings or multi-port docking

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19 minutes ago, Khesperus said:

Wait, I'm confused. Is this guy complaining about having to use struts?

No, I am complaining about the fact struct is the workaround to do this, which shouldn't be the case.

And also all the consequences and limitations this single parent system brings to designs. If your designs are even slightly complex, you should have met this limitations yourself somewhere.

And for me, the introduction of hinges only stressed the problem even more.

Edited by Marcus Aseth

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The thing is that the struts basically function as decouplers themselves when used with a radial decoupler. This gives you a lot of cool design possibilities, right up to imitating the design of the TT-70 radial decouplers.

I guess I'm just used to this stuff, and figure it's part of the way the game works.

do agree that it's annoying when a circular station suddenly goes all floppy and disassembles, but well, I guess I figure that's just part of the game.

 

 

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KSP 2 is aiming to be a completely different game that totally revamps all the previous mechanics such as time warp and how parts interact. So, I don't see what your problem is here, other than being naive to the fact that a set of devs that we can actually trust are developing this game, and that you seem to be under the misconception that Squad is abandoning KSP 1.

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7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

and that you seem to be under the misconception that Squad is abandoning KSP 1.

From my perspective makes no difference... I mean if a problem people complained about since 2015 according to that post is still present in 2020, then to me ksp1 simply hit an "evolutionary cul-de-sac", no matter how many update they are going to make, this will always be flawed to me, because my designs will always be limited by something they can't fix.

But if you guys are confident this new team is going to change stuff, then I'm watching what they are going to make. By the way, around which month is likely there will be new info about KSP2?

Edited by Marcus Aseth

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11 minutes ago, Marcus Aseth said:

From my perspective makes no difference... I mean if a problem people complained about since 2015 according to that post is still present in 2020, then to me ksp1 simply hit an "evolutionary cul-de-sac", no matter how many update they are going to make, this will always be flawed to me, because my designs will always be limited by something they can't fix.

But if you guys are confident this new team is going to change stuff, then I'm watching what they are going to make. By the way, around which month is likely there will be new info about KSP2?

We know they are changing stuff.  How much and what they are changing, we don't know - but on issues like this it'd be best to at least take a wait-and-see approach.  ;)

As for when there's likely to be new info - I'd say April-June.  Sometime in there is the original release date, so either they'll have to announce a delay, or announce the actual date.

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6 minutes ago, DStaal said:

As for when there's likely to be new info - I'd say April-June.  Sometime in there is the original release date, so either they'll have to announce a delay, or announce the actual date.

They have already announced a delay.  And when they did, they didn't specify a new release date.  Actually, they never gave a release date, they merely said "1st quarter"

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34 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

They have already announced a delay.  And when they did, they didn't specify a new release date.  Actually, they never gave a release date, they merely said "1st quarter"

They announced a delay to their investors - but it could just be a delay of a few days.  Either way, that would be the end of the first quarter - so sometime in there I would expect some statement.

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1 hour ago, DStaal said:

They announced a delay to their investors - but it could just be a delay of a few days.  Either way, that would be the end of the first quarter - so sometime in there I would expect some statement.

Reminder that the release date loosely promised to players was Spring 2020. Whether the game releases in March or June doesn't alter what was promised to the players. A June release date, for example, does alter the promise made to investors, thus the delay into the next fiscal year.

If KSP was delayed beyond Spring 2020, and the promise made to the playerbase was broken, we would have already heard from Private Division directly.

Edited by prestja

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I don't see the point of announcing "I'm not going to pay X for Y."  Just don't make the purchase.

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