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Extra tech tree difficulty option


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As an experienced KSP player, rushing trough the tech tree by harvesting minmus for science feels like cheating to me, now you can say: just don't do it then... or decrease science value

but wait wat if there was an extra difficulty option in the tech tree: Kerbal Road blocks
we know that the game keeps track of all you achievements, like if you have landed on the run or not. what if we put this activity tracker to good use, instead of just offering different contacts.

the road blocks will automatically unlock when you preform the specific task. and then you will be able to spend your science on the tech-tree nodes that come after that.

terrier engine make orbiting easy? wel first show us you can orbit without it.

I made a small image of the concept which is not fully worked out yet. but it is the idea that counts:

jVudGM8.png

 

when it is fully worked out you can probably have roadblocks that require: docking manoeuvres, surface sample retrieval, enter atmosphere of planet  X, land on Planet X, maybe even: have station with +10 crew capacity 

IMO this will add an extra layer of depth to the game but it remains light weight and easy to understand.

any ideas of this concept?

 

 

 

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You can stick to those restrictions even if they're not in the code. Set yourself a simple rule "I'm not researching this tier until I've done that".

That said, I've never understood this rush for science. If you're gonna max out the tech tree before leaving Kerbin system, why even bother? Personally, over the years of playing I maxed out the tree maybe once, only researching nodes that were actually useful, getting just enough science to get on the next step of exploration.

But that's just me.

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24 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Set yourself a simple rule

I'm not really good with that,

like I always set the rule for my self to not use the debug menu. but every time my craft run out of ec because they removed the alternator from the engines. batteries used to recharge while the engine was running. not anymore.

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I see this as something the game could have done besides having science. This is why they limited the science payoff you can get from repeat measurements. You'd have to go to new places to unlock new nodes, as you suggest. With the current science system, it sounds like a slider for science payoff(increased difficulty option?) or a check-box to remove biome-specific payoff (encourages going to new bodies and not just new biomes). The "World First" contracts also encourage going to new bodies with much larger contract payoffs than other contract types.

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On 1/29/2020 at 11:47 AM, Noud said:

terrier engine make orbiting easy? wel first show us you can orbit without it.

I would hate that even more than what currently the science+tech system is.

Stock career already forces players to achieve their (or rather game's) goals by building half-assed spacecraft AND only then they are able to use parts they needed to do the same mission properly.

There's a simple way to fix the tree and that's by buying the nodes with money and having science objectives as a part of contracts.

If you don't believe me just set the science values to minimum and download the KerboKatz sciencr exchanger mod. It just fixes the game (though I also use the historical tree mod because it makes actual sense unlike the stock one).

Edited by Wjolcz
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Nice idea.  You could break the techtree by removing the prequistites or make the prerequisutes new nodes.  Using Contract Configurator you could then award a node once a prerequisite is completed.

I'm not sure that breaking the tech tree like this would work... maybe make these nodes horrendously expensive instead inserted just before the nodes you want to block.  Then use Contract Configurator to unlock thsee.  That might work.   But it would look a little odd with such expensive nodes methinks.  Worth a shot though.

So... good luck!  Don't get me wrong.  It is an interesting idea.

But to solve the same issue for myself i do two simple things (and use the SIMPLEX or TETRIX tech tree #shameless plug).

The first is only play with 50% science.   That effectively doubles the amount of science to complete the tree.  The Mün is only half as useful as is Minmus.

The second is that I use Kopernicus (when available) to hide Minmus out at Eeloo.

Peace.

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I generally agree with this, although I think the "land without a parachute" requirement is a bit too much. How are you supposed to pull that off without wings or even landing wheels?

And I feel this doesn't quite solve the issues I have with the stock tech tree, which is too few nodes, too many parts per node and lots of mismatched parts under the same nodes.

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1 hour ago, Fraktal said:

I generally agree with this, although I think the "land without a parachute" requirement is a bit too much. How are you supposed to pull that off without wings or even landing wheels?

And I feel this doesn't quite solve the issues I have with the stock tech tree, which is too few nodes, too many parts per node and lots of mismatched parts under the same nodes.

So what you're saying is, "Squad, please redo the tech tree and add something like this for 1.10," correct?

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14 hours ago, Fraktal said:

I generally agree with this, although I think the "land without a parachute" requirement is a bit too much. How are you supposed to pull that off without wings or even landing wheels?

And I feel this doesn't quite solve the issues I have with the stock tech tree, which is too few nodes, too many parts per node and lots of mismatched parts under the same nodes.

haven't played with the sock TT for a while now, but i did not really give much thought to the specifics, but more like Proof of concept

and if you use CTT the "most problems" with the tech tree are solved for me so.

but from a learning process... if i had to learn how to play KSP with CTT. i probably had a far less pleasant experience, the stock tech tree does rush a bit but from a new player point of view that is OK to me. 

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On 2/4/2020 at 8:17 PM, Kerballing (Got Dunked On) said:

So what you're saying is, "Squad, please redo the tech tree and add something like this for 1.10," correct?

I'm fully aware that changing anything in the tech tree would break all existing career saves, which kinda puts a damper on SQUAD's willingness to take that leap.

On 2/5/2020 at 8:45 AM, Noud said:

haven't played with the sock TT for a while now, but i did not really give much thought to the specifics, but more like Proof of concept

and if you use CTT the "most problems" with the tech tree are solved for me so.

but from a learning process... if i had to learn how to play KSP with CTT. i probably had a far less pleasant experience, the stock tech tree does rush a bit but from a new player point of view that is OK to me. 

I have no idea what's different in the CTT. All the description said last time I read it is that it makes the tech tree easier to expand with mods.

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26 minutes ago, Fraktal said:

I have no idea what's different in the CTT. All the description said last time I read it is that it makes the tech tree easier to expand with mods.

Community Tech Tree is "just" a tech tree mod which expands the normal one and moves a lot of parts around, apart from that is has a boat load of empty nodes for mod makers to fill in. if you only use CTT without any other mods you will hardly notice any difference other that all the empty nodes in the tech tree

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Regarding the stock tech tree rushing at the start, I too have noticed that. When I started sketching down how I would revamp the tech tree from zero rather than merely tweaking the existing one, I too noticed that implementing some of the things I thought of would have many points where even if you buy X part, you can't actually use it without Y part.

For example, how am I going to use the first Making History command pod before unlocking the first reaction wheel? Or the Stayputnik without batteries or solar panels? Or If I try to structure the engines with a "power before control" kerbal philosophy, what good is having the Reliant before the Swivel if the player doesn't have steerable winglets yet? And if I withhold all of the Wing Connector parts until the same tier as the first Mk2 parts but on a different node in order to force the early planes to be small and efficient, won't that make it too hard for the player to take off with more than 2 Mk1 fuel tanks due to the lack of sufficient wing surface?

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In my current playthru, I did notice one interesting dynamic that had previously eluded me... 

If you accept the missions to test equipment that has not already been unlocked...   and you purposefully avoid completing those missions...  You have access to the locked part for the life of the contract.  Gave me early access to the panther engine before I had Supersonic Flight unlocked, which let me use a certain jet design in my hangar earlier than usual.

If only I could generate those contracts at will  (maybe a system to put out RFP's for skunkworks contracts?), but maybe pay a very hefty price to do so?  I could buy expensive access to a skunkworks version of the RAPIER without waiting so long on science farming.

I'd still like to be able to do the missions and unlock the nodes, but I think there's room for some additional creativity.

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On 1/29/2020 at 4:12 AM, The Aziz said:

That said, I've never understood this rush for science. If you're gonna max out the tech tree before leaving Kerbin system, why even bother?

Why bother playing the game at all? I guess because you think it's fun.

As a sandbox game, it's always a bad idea to think that your idea of what's fun should be something everyone else agrees with.

9 hours ago, XLjedi said:

In my current playthru, I did notice one interesting dynamic that had previously eluded me... 

If you accept the missions to test equipment that has not already been unlocked...   and you purposefully avoid completing those missions...  You have access to the locked part for the life of the contract.

Yup. It's always been that way.

On 2/6/2020 at 5:54 AM, Noud said:

Community Tech Tree is "just" a tech tree mod which expands the normal one and moves a lot of parts around

Actually, no. It doesn't move any stock parts around. It just provides a new home for mod parts. It may look like CTT is moving those mod parts, but actually the modders themselves decide where in the CTT the mod part should go. Typically modders specify "if CTT, put the part in *THIS CTT NODE*, otherwise put the part in *THIS STOCK TECH TREE NODE*".

On 1/29/2020 at 11:45 AM, Noud said:

at least the Terrier, it is only my favourite engine ;.;

The Terrier has never had an alternator. Even before it was called "The Terrier".

Edited by mikegarrison
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2 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

Why bother playing the game at all? I guess because you think it's fun.

As a sandbox game, it's always a bad idea to think that your idea of what's fun should be something everyone else agrees with.

I think you missed my point.

rushing trough the tech tree by harvesting minmus for science feels like cheating to me

if someone's gonna spend  90% of their career playthrough without visiting the r&d because the tree was finished within the first week, it's like cutting 1/3 of the mechanics. Might as well cheat the whole science out of the way and play without it from the beginning.

but OP wants the exact opposite, so let's stick with that.

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21 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I think you missed my point.

LOL. No, clearly you missed mine. For you, it makes no sense to harvest science in the Kerbin system until you max out the tech tree, because then what's the point of going to other planets. And yet, I have played through dozens of career mode games, and I have often maxed out (or nearly so) not just the stock tech tree but also the expanded CTT tech tree before I send any crewed missions to other planets. And yeah, that means I'm not getting "science" from those missions, but so what? For me, the whole point of playing the game is to build cool ships and send them out.

So yeah, I could just play a pure sandbox game, and occasionally I do, but I also enjoy those first few Mun landings with minimum tech.

Anyway, you made it very clear that FOR YOU, it seems pointless to harvest a full tree of science at home. And that's fine. I'm not telling you how to play. But for others, your idea of what makes sense may be completely uninteresting to them.

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@Noud  BTW, those locks you put on the tree do look pretty cool.  I think tieing those to completing specific "Unlock" missions would be a great addition to the game!   For instance, the unlock mission for supersonic flight might be to create a rocket plane that breaks the speed of sound.

Maybe a "Test this part" mission (with a part in that next locked node) in conjunction with an objective like break sound barrier is required for the unlock!   I would be supportive of that sort of lock on every single node.  I like the idea of having to specifically test the new part in some mission specific way before the node can be unlocked.

Edited by XLjedi
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5 hours ago, XLjedi said:

@Noud  BTW, those locks you put on the tree do look pretty cool.  I think tieing those to completing specific "Unlock" missions would be a great addition to the game!   For instance, the unlock mission for supersonic flight might be to create a rocket plane that breaks the speed of sound.

Maybe a "Test this part" mission (with a part in that next locked node) in conjunction with an objective like break sound barrier is required for the unlock!   I would be supportive of that sort of lock on every single node.  I like the idea of having to specifically test the new part in some mission specific way before the node can be unlocked.

Take a look at Oh! Scrap and Scrapyard.  Provides part failures and reusable parts, along with part generations.

 

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@linuxgurugamer  I will take a look.  Thanks

Edit: OK, I looked... neither seems to remotely describe what I want to do.  Although, it mentions parts are placed in inventory and appear in editor, it doesn't seem to mention how the parts got there in the first place?  Do you have to initially buy each part that you place in inventory?  If so, I may be interested in Scrapyard!  ...although not really what I was looking for initially.  Oh Scrap, for now, I think I can do without.

I do appreciate you pointing them out though.  Thank you.

Edited by XLjedi
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This is a little off topic... but I think it is alongside the 'game purpose' discussion.

The tech tree exists as a goal to complete it and it feels (even if we don't name it) as the point of the game.

KSP doesn't actually have a point per say. It is a sandbox hame that has a career mode plastered over the top. It is a very loose and teased lore in the monoliths and descriptions of parts and planets.

I would like to see an 'achievement tree'.  Which would display empty spaces for all bodies in the game (for additional planet packs).  So that you unlock them from orbit, probe landing, and flag planting.  Then, completeing the tech tree becomes part of the process in achieving the goal of flag and footsteps on every planet.

Peace.

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1 hour ago, theJesuit said:

This is a little off topic... but I think it is alongside the 'game purpose' discussion.

The tech tree exists as a goal to complete it and it feels (even if we don't name it) as the point of the game.

KSP doesn't actually have a point per say. It is a sandbox hame that has a career mode plastered over the top. It is a very loose and teased lore in the monoliths and descriptions of parts and planets.

I would like to see an 'achievement tree'.  Which would display empty spaces for all bodies in the game (for additional planet packs).  So that you unlock them from orbit, probe landing, and flag planting.  Then, completeing the tech tree becomes part of the process in achieving the goal of flag and footsteps on every planet.

Peace.

this is suggestion is really good in my opinion. 

i personal don't play sandbox mode, only career. as otherwise i have no idea what to do in the game.

for me i play career, gather science and do contracts, but what then? after i gathered enough funds and science. I end up in a sand box anyway. the game does not really encourage me to do much more. 

thats why i also like you idea with the "achievement tree" is gives you some form of "Boss fights" where you have the satisfaction of beating the final boss.

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