KSP Needs life support. PLEASE

[DunaManiac]

18 hours ago, Marshall Hopp said:

its very simple, a robot mission should be easier than a manned mission.... with no life support it is actually much harder and requires more planning to send a robot.

Kerbalism was my favourite because of the added radiation, part malfunctions, stress and things like nitrogen for pressure

Life support should all be optional but PLEASE include it.   its almost silly to go for such realism with parts and engines without air, food, stress, water and part malfunctions/repairs

thank you very much, Love ksp 1 when i can get kerbalism to work properly (although it needs to be a base game function to work properly and with things like fast forward which screwed every LS mod i used)

This is a very debatable question*.

*read: VERY VERY VERY debatable.

[mattinoz]

4 hours ago, steve_v said:

I mostly agree (s/must/should/g), but...

We're not talking about a clean slate, and like commnet, we're going to have people that don't want life-support. They will want a way to disable it.
It should be a core gameplay mechanic, but at this stage of development I'm not sure it's practical or wise to introduce it that way.
Something in stock is better than nothing, and once it's in the temptation is there to extend and integrate it into other aspects of the game. Introducing it as "you now have another problem to deal with, suck it up" will cause much more bickering than "here's a new thing, turn it on and try it out if you like" will.

Shouldn’t it be a problem you have to deal with. I mean without life support to constrict how long you can habitat space what is difference between a mission craft the a station or colony? 
 

i think parts should handle the job they are meant for without additional parts lowers the learning curve give you a chance to see how mechanics work before you need to push them to do something interesting. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by mattinoz

[Waxing_Kibbous]

How about adding optional LS for Kerbals, and an advanced science biped robot that can do most things Kerbals can but need only EC. That would be kind of fun, sort of like an Adventures of Bill dynamic.

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

an advanced science biped robot that can do most things Kerbals can but need only EC

Honestly, I think kerbals are really underutilized in KSP and this would just make it worse. I really hope in the sequel kerbals have more practical uses and advantages so probes aren't as OP

[mattinoz]

4 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Honestly, I think kerbals are really underutilized in KSP and this would just make it worse. I really hope in the sequel kerbals have more practical uses and advantages so probes aren't as OP

This... a 1000 times this.

Kerbals need to be valuable which requires something fun them do that can't do done without them and scarcity ie life support to make it a challenge to get them there.

[The Aziz]

And so there will be many people who won't do these fun, valuable things because life support will effectively stop them.

Getting kerbals to the place with all the equipment they need is a challenge for many. Like, it's more than just a probe core+antenna.

[Superfluous J]

6 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Honestly, I think kerbals are really underutilized in KSP and this would just make it worse. I really hope in the sequel kerbals have more practical uses and advantages so probes aren't as OP

I recall when they added comm net that making probes harder while leaving Kerbed missions alone was to skew ease toward Kerbed missions.

So the devs basically disagree (or at least disagreed) with the OP's core assumption.

And I agree with their disagreement.

[DStaal]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

And so there will be many people who won't do these fun, valuable things because life support will effectively stop them.

Getting kerbals to the place with all the equipment they need is a challenge for many. Like, it's more than just a probe core+antenna.

Also worth noting is that we're going to have colonization - including building of both bases and ships.  That's a good purpose for Kerbals right there: Robots can explore, but you need Kerbals to build.

Personally what I expect in terms of Life Support is something to maintain and grow bases, not something you need to worry about while flying.  And I think it'll be mostly set-and-forget: You need to get the base large enough to build the LS parts on your own, but once you do they'll be self-sufficient.

[mattinoz]

4 hours ago, The Aziz said:

And so there will be many people who won't do these fun, valuable things because life support will effectively stop them.

Getting kerbals to the place with all the equipment they need is a challenge for many. Like, it's more than just a probe core+antenna.

A lot of that has to be attributed to the game favouring player flying blind. Talk of tutorial and helpful tools might indicate that attitude will be very different in the new game.

[Bartybum]

I'm in favour of an optional approach like atmospheric heating, etc., but by default it should be off for easy difficulty, but on for normal and hard. Like many others, I think the best way to do it is like Snacks!, where you have few resources that are easy to manage, as well as waste recycling capabilities. Throw in some production facilities and we're golden. Life Support is a pillar of manned spaceflight, and the game should be able to reflect that.

On 2/23/2020 at 7:42 AM, Brikoleur said:

It should be experienced as a challenge, and it should lead to emergent gameplay just like CommNet does.

Resupply missions? Food production? If that's not emergent gameplay then I dunno what is. Just like relay constellations emerged from CommNet, supply lines can emerge from life support. If you make it in the player's interest to set up these lines, particularly in early-midgame when you don't yet have colonies, then the corresponding gameplay will emerge.

I'm not really a fan of air management, but I do think we should have to make sure our Kerbals stay fed.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bartybum

[mcwaffles2003]

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

And so there will be many people who won't do these fun, valuable things because life support will effectively stop them.

Getting kerbals to the place with all the equipment they need is a challenge for many. Like, it's more than just a probe core+antenna.

Getting to a place with a probe is a challenge, getting there with a heavy payload is the next challenge. That's 90% of the difference

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bartybum said:

Resupply missions? Food production? If that's not emergent gameplay then I dunno what is. Just like relay constellations emerged from CommNet, supply lines can emerge from life support.

These are not emergent gameplay, they’re separate gameplay systems, and relatively complex ones at that. They need design, implementation, balancing, and integration into the base gameplay.

Emergent gameplay is when  systems cause players to come up with stuff to do on their own. Constellations are emergent gameplay, because they don’t need anything beyond the properties of CommNet to emerge, supply lines and farming are not because they would require systems of their own in the game.

And yes LS needs all that to be enjoyable. Otherwise it just becomes a chore. As I said earlier, if all there is to LS is dry mass or dead kerbals, it’s not worth doing at all.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, mattinoz said:

A lot of that has to be attributed to the game favouring player flying blind. Talk of tutorial and helpful tools might indicate that attitude will be very different in the new game.

I think the old "don't show the ∆V reading because to would spoil the fun" is already dead for the first game and if I'm not wrong Nate said that we will not need mods like KAC or transfer window planner in KSP2, so I think it's safe to assume that the "flying blind" mentality is pretty much dead.

[kerbiloid]

Two Kerbal estates: plebeians and patricians.
Visually distinguished by color of the toga spacesuit (and maybe laurel wreaths for BadS ones).

Patrician Kerbals bring more science, have additional abilities, can go on their own.
They need a full featured life support system, wine, fruits, olives.
By losing one you loose a lot, so should save them.
(Currently there are four of them, JBBV)

Plebeian Kerbal are much more numerous, need a patrician in the crew to be controlled by player (he explains them what to do).
They need a simplified life support (like Snacks but Bread and Water).

Additional bonuses:

1. Simplified LES. You need to save patricians, plebeians are optional.
Make a Starship of plebeians with a Dragon on top for the patricians. Or a retro-sci-fi rocket with a small rocket cabin on top and crew deck below.
Remember the Jules Verne's Nautilus.

2. No problem of choice for interstellar flights like generation vs hybernation.
Just put your patrician Kerbals in the freeze chambers (with 90% chance of revive, like usually), and let the plebeian Kerbals reproduce and keep the starship intact for several generations. So you gain both advantages.

3. You can combine both spartan and luxury styles in your bases. Have a luxury habitat for several pats and a common crew habitat for other plebs.

4. You can have rebels like in SW. Sometimes some Duna base can rebel and replace the patricians with their own rebel leaders not controlled by you. Be a Kerbal Palpatine!

So, you can select the game mode: Plebeian (only plebs and simplified Bread&Water LS) or Patrician (full-featured LS for patricians and same Bread&Water for plebs)

Edited February 24, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Guest]

^
You made me laugh. Proud tribunus plebis here.

[Guest]

On 2/23/2020 at 2:43 AM, kerbiloid said:

It's not a problem of the life support, but of UI settings.
A "Switch off the cabin cams" checkbox would completely solve this issue.

I would still knowwwww @_@

[kerbiloid]

Just now, Dale Christopher said:

I would still knowwwww @_@

KSP has a solution even for this case.

Spoiler

 

 

[The Aziz]

Comparing life support to commnet isn't very good. Unless the whole mechanic would come down to basically packing a box of food to the storage bay and forgetting about it.

[Bartybum]

3 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

Emergent gameplay is when  systems cause players to come up with stuff to do on their own. Constellations are emergent gameplay, because they don’t need anything beyond the properties of CommNet to emerge, supply lines and farming are not because they would require systems of their own in the game.

What extra system would be required for me to restock my space station with supplies? Supply lines can merely be a gameplay strategy to get around the costs of having to constantly send expensive ships from Kerbin.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

What extra system would be required for me to restock my space station with supplies? Supply lines can merely be a gameplay strategy to get around the costs of having to constantly send expensive ships from Kerbin.

The game will have orbital shipyards and colonies and the most recurring part in all the footage are the triangular containers, I think that the need for supply lines is already in game even without LS.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

What extra system would be required for me to restock my space station with supplies? Supply lines can merely be a gameplay strategy to get around the costs of having to constantly send expensive ships from Kerbin.

If you don't have those extra systems for abstracting out supply lines (and, implicitly, production, consumption, and acquisition of resources -- i.e., a simulated economy), then that means you have to make those supply runs manually every time. That would be rote, repetitive, and tedious. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Guest

[magnemoe]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:52 PM, Hohmannson said:

Yeah. KSP1 lacks some core mechanics for proper life support. We can`t just leave kerbals in colony with running drill, running water processor, running greenhouse and expect them to survive. And we can`t leave a kerbal in a rover parked nearby and expect him to backgroundly walk to colony for snacking or to call others to bring him food. USI MKS is a nice try (resource scavenging and habitation sharing of nearby vessels), but the background things are even more problematic there. 

Not a whole new game on top of existing game. Just a background commnet-like process, where kerbals cook their snacks, eat their snacks, run converters, make new kerbals, manage their power generation and probably send and recieve supply shipments.

One nice thing with life support is that it makes manned missions harder and it also make large ships better for long missions as you can use recycling to stretch out how long water and air last, food require heavy green houses so mostly practical for bases. 

In the first talk about KSP2 they said it would get an life support system who they described as pretty simple. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by magnemoe

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, Brikoleur said:

If you don't have those extra systems for abstracting out supply lines (and, implicitly, production, consumption, and acquisition of resources -- i.e., a simulated economy), then that means you have to make those supply runs manually every time. That would be rote, repetitive, and tedious. 

Fair point. I would love for automation; it'd help with the whole running a space agency shtick.

[OOM]

I play with TAC LS and Kerbal Heath. I can’t even imagine how you can play without it.

19 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

If you don't have those extra systems for abstracting out supply lines (and, implicitly, production, consumption, and acquisition of resources -- i.e., a simulated economy), then that means you have to make those supply runs manually every time. That would be rote, repetitive, and tedious. 

Damn, but I need to carry supplies manually 

True, even on the Moon you can find ice, which can then be split into Oxygen and Water, thereby reducing the need to carry supplies there. Well, as a food - cabbage grown in a greenhouse.

This should fully cover the need to maintain bases for 7 or 12 \ 14 people. And more is not necessary. KSP 1 will not withstand so many parts of the base and your PC will explode.
A good quality base will contain at least 300-400 parts.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by OOM

[Superfluous J]

18 minutes ago, OOM said:

I play with TAC LS and Kerbal Heath. I can’t even imagine how you can play without it.

Super simple. Just don't install them. The game runs fine