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A hand shaped like a oven mitt... could it work?


Spacescifi

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So I was designing a humanoud scifi race and I thought... why not shape the hands and feet akin to oven mitts?

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Make the hands extra flexible for contortion, and also put octopus suckers all over the touching side. Feet would be much the same.

20160910_AOPoctopus_7028-Brandi.jpg

 

Question is: Could they still develop modern human tech with equivalent intelligence? I wanna say yes, yet there tech would be user friendly... for them.

 

Typing: LOL no. They don't have fingers, the closest they come to a digit is the big thumb shape of their mitten shaped hands. They could get by by oversizing stuff we take for granted. Using dials and also flip switches when big buttons are not desired.

 

Music: Stringed instruments will be rare and hard to play due to the lack of fingers. Yet I can see basic stuff like horns and drums being used instead. They would find human music far more complex than the stuff they are used to listening to. I can see organs and keyboards being playedby entire teams of people.

 

Climbing: All that grip in the suckers and the coverage of the oven mitt shaped hand should allow free climbing feats unheard of for normal people like us. Not these guys and gals though. Anything but.

 

Anyone have more to add or clarify?

 

Edited by Spacescifi
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I can see that working, especiall in some aquatic creature. I would go for opposing thumb be more, um, opposing. "Paddle" is not gonna be very fexible IMO (evolutionary pressure in that direction would be more likely to produce separate digits) so thumb have to do more. Maybe have more joints, or have thumbs at both sides of paddle.

Not sure about suckers though - if they are so useful why are they not seen more often in nature? There must be some disadvantage to select against it quite heavily. And having a thumb to get hold of things is just as good for most things, so parsimonious mother nature will let you off with either one but not both. BUT,if you can have them somehow and can control them individually, that is your controls. Instead of push-sensitive keys, their keyboards have pull-sensitive disks. So instad of flat "keyboard", they use curved "discoid". There.

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Fine control of the suckers puts a lot of load on nervous system. Which happens to be already quite expensive for the organism in terms of energy and resources necessary to grow and maintain it properly.

Sure, i can see an organism evolving in that direction, but probability of this particular evolutionary path being taken would be low IMO.

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2 hours ago, Scotius said:

Fine control of the suckers puts a lot of load on nervous system. Which happens to be already quite expensive for the organism in terms of energy and resources necessary to grow and maintain it properly.

But we have hair on the skin, it can get straight when it's cold or scary.
So, if replace them with suckers, we probably need even less nerves.

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4 hours ago, radonek said:

I can see that working, especiall in some aquatic creature. I would go for opposing thumb be more, um, opposing. "Paddle" is not gonna be very fexible IMO (evolutionary pressure in that direction would be more likely to produce separate digits) so thumb have to do more. Maybe have more joints, or have thumbs at both sides of paddle.

Not sure about suckers though - if they are so useful why are they not seen more often in nature? There must be some disadvantage to select against it quite heavily. And having a thumb to get hold of things is just as good for most things, so parsimonious mother nature will let you off with either one but not both. BUT,if you can have them somehow and can control them individually, that is your controls. Instead of push-sensitive keys, their keyboards have pull-sensitive disks. So instad of flat "keyboard", they use curved "discoid". There.

 

Interesting analysis. Regarding the suckers, individually they can contort and pinch, but pulling requires lifting the hand.

So an alien derived keyboard would look plenty different from a human one. I think their hands would not have to move much compared to human typing, as the amounr of suckers would outnumber fingers.

I think the keyboard would consist of squeezable pin cushion shaped keys, with the alien hand hovering just above them.

 

I also never take evolution theory into consideration of scifi races as I violate the theory by reason of me being the intelligent creator of it all. I just do what I like and see if it would work in practice or not.

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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

But we have hair on the skin, it can get straight when it's cold or scary.
So, if replace them with suckers, we probably need even less nerves.

Hair reacts to cold, and in some cases fear(possibly due to reduced heating from constricted blood vessels?).

Hair is not individually controllable like these suckers are desired to be(can't use a keyboard if you can't control each one separately).

What would be the advantage of a paddle+thumb instead of just 2 opposing digits?

Evolution can get to wonky places, so I am sure it is possible, it just does not seem very plausible.

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1 minute ago, Terwin said:

Hair reacts to cold, and in some cases fear(possibly due to reduced heating from constricted blood vessels?).

Hair is not individually controllable like these suckers are desired to be(can't use a keyboard if you can't control each one separately).

But we don't need 100 000 suckers so maybe there is enough skin muscles to be repurposed.

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13 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Hair reacts to cold, and in some cases fear(possibly due to reduced heating from constricted blood vessels?).

Hair is not individually controllable like these suckers are desired to be(can't use a keyboard if you can't control each one separately).

What would be the advantage of a paddle+thumb instead of just 2 opposing digits?

Evolution can get to wonky places, so I am sure it is possible, it just does not seem very plausible.

 

Fun fact, these humanoids cannot pick their nose,and would evy the human ability to do this.

Perhaps they just clean their noses with q-tips and napkins, both of which they can hold.

 

Humans would envy their spiderman-like ability to climb with hands and feetm

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2 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

they just clean their noses with q-tips and napkins, both of which they can hold.

 

Humans would envy their spiderman-like ability to climb with hands and feetm

If they can make threads and webs out of snot, they don't need to clean the nose.
Combo!

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1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

If they can make threads and webs out of snot, they don't need to clean the nose.
Combo!

 

Nice pun, but that is not the case. I did not realize how much changes with oven mitt shaped hands.

 

At least until machinery comes into play, a lot of tools will be oversized.

Rope and string for exampie. How can one sew a tiny needle with oven mitts for hands? You can't easily do so if at all.

 

Thus I can initially see clothing being animal fur skins, and until machinery is made to sew clothing for them it will probably stay that way.

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(Actually, it wasn't a pun. I meant spiderman's threads and webs).

7 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

How can one sew a tiny needle with oven mitts for hands?

Spiders and caterpillars do it without hands at all.

Upd.
By winding the snothreads around the body these humanoid can make cocoons, clothes, and spacesuits.

Edited by kerbiloid
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1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

(Actually, it wasn't a pun. I meant spiderman's threads and webs).

Spiders and caterpillars do it without hands at all.

Upd.
By winding the snothreads around the body these humanoid can make cocoons, clothes, and spacesuits.

 

Being a writer makes me privy to knowing about a lot of seemingly unrelated information... at first glance anyway.

 

Snot webs? While possible anatomically, it would incur a far greater cost than a tiny spider would, due to body mass.

 

I saw a website once that calculated for spiderman to make enough webbing to perform even ONE of his many feats in the  early 2000's superhero movies he would need to a LOT of eggs.

 

Let’s assume Spider-Man produces silk that has the same characteristics as dragline silk produced by the European garden spider Araneus diadematus. That means it ought to have tensile strength – which is the largest stress that a material can withstand before breaking – similar to that of a piano wire.

A piano wire has the tensile strength of 1.1 billion Pascals. Pascals is a unit of measure for pressure, which is force per unit area.

According to Marvel’s directory, Spider-Man weighs 75kg. Applying Newton’s first law, we can figure out the downward force that Spider-Man exerts. It would be mass times the Earth’s gravitational acceleration, which works out to be about 735 Newtons.

These two values allow us to calculate the cross-sectional area of spider silk by dividing the force exerted by the tensile strength of the silk. Without going into the tiny calculations, it turns out that Spider-Man could hang from the ceiling on silk that is less than 1mm thick.

Now we need to figure out how much volume this total silk fibre would represent, if Spider-Man’s pre-lunch world-saving session requires 100m of it. Silk is slight heavier than water, which means that 100m of the wire would weight about 87g.

There is about 6g of protein in an egg. So it looks like Spidey only needs about 15 eggs for breakfast if he plans to use 100m of silk. That’s not too bad.

image-20150128-22305-ndza99.jpg?ixlib=rb More eggs please. tonymadrid

But spider silk consists predominantly of a protein call fibroin. Proteins are made from different amino acids, and fibroin is about 42% glycine. While egg consists of just 10.7% glycine and serine (I’m counting serine because it can be easily converted to glycine). So really Spidey needs to consume four times more egg protein than the silk protein he plans to use. So actually he needs 60 eggs for his 100m of silk.

That’s not really the end of it either. After all what happens if he leaps from a building to save a falling Mary-Jane and deploys his webslingers to save the day, as he does about halfway through the movie.

In the scene, Spidey leaps from the balcony and falls for seven seconds before his silk starts to arrest his fall. He has caught M-J so let’s say their combined weight is 125kg. How much silk is he going to need here?

From the time of Spidey’s fall, we can calculate that he fell about 240m (wow, that’s one high balcony). Plus, assuming the silk stretches to its maximum, a stopping distance, it will be a fall of about the height of the Eiffel Tower. The impact force on the silk rope as they slow down would be about 35 times their weight.

Which is about six times greater force than when Spidey is just hanging around on the end of his line of silk. But taking into account the length of the fall (240m) and the extra force, he will need 1.3 kg of silk to catch his fall. So I reckon he must have had about 900 eggs for breakfast that morning, just to have enough silk for that one scene. I think Aunt May might have noticed.

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If make the snothread stickiness fade away after seconds (they actually don't need this hanging around), they can just retract them after jump, digest, and reexcrete again, so they can constantly save and reuse their atoms.

Or they can cut off a snothread if it's used to make a space cocoon.

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14 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

If make the snothread stickiness fade away after seconds (they actually don't need this hanging around), they can just retract them after jump, digest, and reexcrete again, so they can constantly save and reuse their atoms.

Or they can cut off a snothread if it's used to make a space cocoon.

 

I cannot say the idea is not interesting. because I would be lying, but snotweb sounds... gross.

But that is besides the point.

In a way, it is quite practical, assuming one wanted to make clothing from it. Just eat several cartons of eggs and wait a few hours for digestiom. Then blow and spray the nose while looking down at chest.

Such a garment would need to be draped around to cover the back, and some stickiness could pay off here.

So the end result is everybody wearing spidersilk catsuits, sometimes colored with pigment dyes for style.

 

Gross? To humans yeah, but effective.

 

Without eating enougheggs I suppose the nose would just get normal boogers.

I also presume that they do not use the initial few strands of web, as they have boogers on them. The ones after are clean.

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11 hours ago, Scotius said:

Fine control of the suckers puts a lot of load on nervous system. Which happens to be already quite expensive for the organism in terms of energy and resources necessary to grow and maintain it properly.

Sure, i can see an organism evolving in that direction, but probability of this particular evolutionary path being taken would be low IMO.

Yes, but do you need fine control, on off on finger or part of it, an finger moves the two outer joins at once after all. More important they are pretty easy to damage and don't handle hard use, imagine rowing or using an shovel for an day with you hand covered with suction cups, perhaps having them on the finger tips if you had long fingers.  
Its not so much an difference between an flipper, mitten and webbed fingers. 
Webbed fingers would works like an flipper, however with webbed fingers we assume each finger can be moved independently but they can not move very far from each other. Having finger tips with claws or nails would still be nice 
Oven mittens are very bad here as they are one size fits all, are made from thick padded material and is only designed for picking up large hot objects and put them another place. Mittens designed for use in cold weather is far more agile, still much less than webbed fingers will be because no loose fabric. 
Most flippers can not be manipulated a lot as its no need for it, so you need an need for arms and hands. 

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6 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Yes, but do you need fine control, on off on finger or part of it, an finger moves the two outer joins at once after all. More important they are pretty easy to damage and don't handle hard use, imagine rowing or using an shovel for an day with you hand covered with suction cups, perhaps having them on the finger tips if you had long fingers.  
Its not so much an difference between an flipper, mitten and webbed fingers. 
Webbed fingers would works like an flipper, however with webbed fingers we assume each finger can be moved independently but they can not move very far from each other. Having finger tips with claws or nails would still be nice 
Oven mittens are very bad here as they are one size fits all, are made from thick padded material and is only designed for picking up large hot objects and put them another place. Mittens designed for use in cold weather is far more agile, still much less than webbed fingers will be because no loose fabric. 
Most flippers can not be manipulated a lot as its no need for it, so you need an need for arms and hands. 

In the case of the oven mitt shaped hands, they would indeed have bones within them, allowing for flexing movements similar to what a human would make with an oven mitt.

 

But even though they hamper the humanoids in many ways, it won't stop them.

As for wear and tear, octopuses are known to shed sucker plates with high use, with a fresh one replacing it underneath.

So I suppose getting shed suction cups detached from stuff throughoutthe workplace will be a clean up your own mess kind of deal or coworkers start giving the person the look.

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Just now, Spacescifi said:

In the case of the oven mitt shaped hands, they would indeed have bones within them, allowing for flexing movements similar to what a human would make with an oven mitt.

But even though they hamper the humanoids in many ways, it won't stop them.

As for wear and tear, octopuses are known to shed sucker plates with high use, with a fresh one replacing it underneath.

So I suppose getting shed suction cups detached from stuff throughoutthe workplace will be a clean up your own mess kind of deal or coworkers start giving the person the look.

True, however having more of the webbed hand design would have more benefits, if using the hands for swimming you would expand the hands. This will give the fingers more traverse. 
I think you could create some sort of suction cups who would work with fingers, Have an net of of callosity skin with backing, have softer skin inside the net who can be pulled inn with muscles, not as good but workable, add claws. an sharp claw might work better for grasping fish. 
 

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:21 PM, magnemoe said:

True, however having more of the webbed hand design would have more benefits, if using the hands for swimming you would expand the hands. This will give the fingers more traverse. 
I think you could create some sort of suction cups who would work with fingers, Have an net of of callosity skin with backing, have softer skin inside the net who can be pulled inn with muscles, not as good but workable, add claws. an sharp claw might work better for grasping fish. 
 

 

I will level with you.

 

Truth is, I have mutiple scifi races in the works, and claws are already featured on one, so oven mity shaped hanfs with suckers is likely the most imaginitive shape I have devised so far. As morr than one of other races are partly animal inspired.

Edited by Spacescifi
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How would "mitten hands" *not* evolve into finger-hands?

You would need to (if hard plausibility is what you want) come up with an evolutionary pressure that selected for mitten hands. 

Fingers are selected for for fine toolmaking (Im guessing) with all of the manifest advantages that brings.

How would an environment have to be setup, to select for mitten-hands but not for fingers?

 

Perhaps a physically very harsh environment where narrow, spindly appendages suffer severe wear&tear?

I cant say selecting for mitten-hands would be condusive to high technology but thats just a gut feeling, itd just be too hard, even getting to the "farmed food" stage would be hard, seeds are small, plants are fragile.

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3 hours ago, p1t1o said:

How would "mitten hands" *not* evolve into finger-hands?

You would need to (if hard plausibility is what you want) come up with an evolutionary pressure that selected for mitten hands. 

Fingers are selected for for fine toolmaking (Im guessing) with all of the manifest advantages that brings.

How would an environment have to be setup, to select for mitten-hands but not for fingers?

 

Perhaps a physically very harsh environment where narrow, spindly appendages suffer severe wear&tear?

I cant say selecting for mitten-hands would be condusive to high technology but thats just a gut feeling, itd just be too hard, even getting to the "farmed food" stage would be hard, seeds are small, plants are fragile.

 

So I could just make the ecosystem fit them more. Bigger seeds, etc.

Just about about everything changes compared to our world.

Even so, they could still pick up tiny items with the suction plates, but manipulation of small stuff or tools will be far more tedious for them than us I agree... so I may have to just dismiss the idea and just go with the suction cup ped palm and fingers.

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14 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

So I could just make the ecosystem fit them more. Bigger seeds, etc.

Just about about everything changes compared to our world.

Even so, they could still pick up tiny items with the suction plates, but manipulation of small stuff or tools will be far more tedious for them than us I agree... so I may have to just dismiss the idea and just go with the suction cup ped palm and fingers.

I was thinking - smaller suction cups means more detailed manipulation.

What if they were extremely small - or you could go with the electrostatic "setae" that geckos have.

If they are very small and densely packed I can imagine a "mitt" being able to grip things without "gripping" them - it does away with the need for an opposable thumb.

Imagine looking for a specific piece of lego in a pile - your last hinge.

You stick your mitt in the pile and "feel" for it, once the familiar shape touches you, you activate the grip of that tiny area (without the need for phyiscal movement). The rest of the mitt stays grip-free. Pull out mitt with single lego attached. Like sticking a lollipop into sherbet, but selective.

Think about how you can use fingers to pick up one small object via feel alone, while still gripping the first object you pick up a second one, transfer to the palm with fingers look for another, all with only one hand. With a stick-mitt, you can do this and also several things fingers cant.

 

Maybe with weird evolution the mitt isnt so useless as I first imagined.

 

(the big seed thing though - only goes so far. At some point you will have a need to manipulate things much smaller than your hands. If you want technology, that is. Tech doesnt really get far if computers have to be house-sized. You cant build a machine out of bricks, that can manipulate objects much smaller than bricks. I can see micro-suckers or gecko setae as a solution to this though)

 

 

Is this creature going to have bones and muscles?

The gecko stuff - this could introduce interesting complications around how different materials interact with the electrostatic function of the gripping surfaces.

Edited by p1t1o
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39 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I was thinking - smaller suction cups means more detailed manipulation.

What if they were extremely small - or you could go with the electrostatic "setae" that geckos have.

If they are very small and densely packed I can imagine a "mitt" being able to grip things without "gripping" them - it does away with the need for an opposable thumb.

Imagine looking for a specific piece of lego in a pile - your last hinge.

You stick your mitt in the pile and "feel" for it, once the familiar shape touches you, you activate the grip of that tiny area (without the need for phyiscal movement). The rest of the mitt stays grip-free. Pull out mitt with single lego attached. Like sticking a lollipop into sherbet, but selective.

Think about how you can use fingers to pick up one small object via feel alone, while still gripping the first object you pick up a second one, transfer to the palm with fingers look for another, all with only one hand. With a stick-mitt, you can do this and also several things fingers cant.

 

Maybe with weird evolution the mitt isnt so useless as I first imagined.

 

(the big seed thing though - only goes so far. At some point you will have a need to manipulate things much smaller than your hands. If you want technology, that is. Tech doesnt really get far if computers have to be house-sized. You cant build a machine out of bricks, that can manipulate objects much smaller than bricks. I can see micro-suckers or gecko setae as a solution to this though)

 

 

Is this creature going to have bones and muscles?

The gecko stuff - this could introduce interesting complications around how different materials interact with the electrostatic function of the gripping surfaces.

 

Oh yes it has bones and muscles, looks human, just the skin and hair are colors humans don't have.

 

As for the suction plates, good idea. If mini enough, they could be used to manipulate small items much like fingers, even delicate stuff like tweezers.

Octopus suckers are very flexible, and the alien ones could be smaller with the added feature of full 360 rotation for ALL suckers, being able to choose selectively which ones and how, besides the sucker pinching that octopuses already have IRL.

This allows for them to use the suckers to rotate an item on their palm or even stand it upright, all without using their thumb.

Good ideas! You helped salvage an idea I was gonna regretfully scrap.

Now with these mods the mitt can at leasr compete with the human hand, besides beibg superior for climbing walls (greater surfae area/suction/adhesive fluid optional).

 

The main problem will be flossing their teeth.

It would be a proper nightmare. Unless they all have bad breath due to not flossing, or perhaps their mouth and tooth bones are nore acid resistant and regrow their whole lifetime if broken? Perhaps they just swish acid in their mouth and spit to clean between the teeth?

 

Perhaps the feature comes in built, which means yes they can spit acid if they want, used primarily forcleaning hard to reach places in the mouth.

Edited by Spacescifi
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