Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Brikoleur said: Yes, as a matter of fact. I believe the game would be better with only one good, deep, thoroughly well thought-out mode, rather than three half-baked ones. (Four, if you count Making History missions.) You can't make one mode that fits all. <snip> Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: You can't make one mode that fits all. <snip> I just described it. Would you care to read it and comment? https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/191947-ksp2-should-have-no-optional-features/&do=findComment&comment=3749362 Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Brikoleur said: I just described it. Would you care to read it and comment? https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/191947-ksp2-should-have-no-optional-features/&do=findComment&comment=3749362 What if I want to play Sandbox instead of this wannabe attempt at reinventing KSP's modes? 7 hours ago, Brikoleur said: And most importantly, I think it would be richer, more interesting, and more fun. Hardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said: What if I want to play Sandbox instead of this wannabe attempt at reinventing KSP's modes? How would Career with enough Science to unlock all tech tree nodes and enough Funds to upgrade all buildings and buy all parts with, say, a billion left over for craft and missions be functionally different from Sandbox? 1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said: Hardly. Your opinion is noted, but some elaboration on it would be welcome. Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brikoleur said: How would Career with enough Science to unlock all tech tree nodes and enough Funds to upgrade all buildings with, say, a billion left over for craft and missions be functionally different from Sandbox? What if I want to play a save with none of these silly career/science elements? What if I want all parts, buildings, etc. but I can't <snip> Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: What if I want to play a save with none of these silly career/science elements? If you start out with enough Science to unlock the entire tech tree, you can ignore it. If you start out with enough Funds to upgrade all buildings and buy all parts and have enough left over to build all the craft you would ever want, you can ignore Funds. If you can ignore Science and Funds, you can ignore any career elements related to Science or Funds, viz. all of them. 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: What if I want all parts, buildings, etc. but I can't <snip> If KSP worked like in my suggestion, you could have all the parts, buildings, etc. simply by setting the Science and Funds sliders all the way to the right, and clicking a few times to make the upgrades. Once again: how would that be functionally different from Sandbox? The way I'm envisioning it is that the only differences would be that you could still open the Administration and Mission Control buildings and see what's going on in there, instead of getting the "This building is closed" message. Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brikoleur said: If you start out with enough Science to unlock the entire tech tree, you can ignore it. If you start out with enough Funds to upgrade all buildings and buy all parts and have enough left over to build all the craft you would ever want, you can ignore Funds. If you can ignore Science and Funds, you can ignore any career elements related to Science or Funds, viz. all of them. If KSP worked like in my suggestion, you could have all the parts, buildings, etc. simply by setting the Science and Funds sliders all the way to the right, and clicking a few times to make the upgrades. Once again: how would that be functionally different from Sandbox? What's driven you to think that forcing one mode on everyone is a good idea? <snip> If you can just drag the sliders up, how is that functionally different to having a sandbox mode that starts you off with max everything like right now? Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0111narwhalz Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Brikoleur said: and clicking a few times to make the upgrades. Speaking for myself… Clicking a few times to do something that should be a simple radio button to begin with? This sounds like a hack to me. Just include an option to start off in this fully-upgraded, fully-unlocked state. Maybe even label it "sandbox." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: What's driven you to think that forcing one mode on everyone is a good idea? <snip> If you can just drag the sliders up, how is that functionally different to having a sandbox mode that starts you off with max everything like right now? It isn't functionally different at all. That's my point! The Sandbox and Science modes are redundant, because you could get functionally the exact same thing simply by allowing the funds/science sliders to go much higher up. KSP only needs one mode, which integrates all the features of Career, Sandbox, Science, and Making History into one coherent set of gameplay systems. Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunaManiac Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Brikoleur said: How would Career with enough Science to unlock all tech tree nodes and enough Funds to upgrade all buildings and buy all parts with, say, a billion left over for craft and missions be functionally different from Sandbox? Your opinion is noted, but some elaboration on it would be welcome. This discussion is getting a little bit heated but I do agree with @Bej Kerman that there should be different modes in the game, and by extension, CERTAIN options. I do partially agree with @Brikoleur that some options like life support, planet resizing and other "compromises" should not be implemented. But I do agree with different modes, what you described is "Sandbox Mode" and it is essentially an option. KSP itself is based on how YOU want to play, not how the developers mandate it. Simply for freedom of how you want to play, I believe options are needed, especially on the consoles where there will be no mod support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, 0111narwhalz said: Speaking for myself… Clicking a few times to do something that should be a simple radio button to begin with? This sounds like a hack to me. Just include an option to start off in this fully-upgraded, fully-unlocked state. Maybe even label it "sandbox." I wouldn't object if you could save presets for the difficulty sliders, and the game would come canned with a few of them. And yes, two of them could be labeled "Science" or "Sandbox." Hey, you could even have a few built-in game states you can load -- for example, one with all the buildings upgraded, the tech tree unlocked, and all parts bought. All in one game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, Brikoleur said: It isn't functionally different at all. That's my point! The Sandbox and Science modes are redundant, because you could get functionally the exact same thing simply by allowing the funds/science sliders to go much higher up. KSP only needs one mode, which integrates all the features of Career, Sandbox, Science, and Making History into one coherent set of gameplay systems. Then have a sandbox mode to skip all that pointless gobletigoop involving upgrading everything and clicking through the massive tech tree, and let people customise how sandbox mode is so they can try things without burning up in the atmosphere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, DunaManiac said: But I do agree with different modes, what you described is "Sandbox Mode" and it is essentially an option. But we've just agreed that Sandbox Mode is just Career Mode with everything unlocked and (effectively) unlimited Funds. Why does it need to be a separate game mode? Just now, Bej Kerman said: Then have a sandbox mode to skip all that pointless gobletigoop involving upgrading everything and clicking through the massive tech tree, and let people customise how sandbox mode is so they can try things without burning up in the atmosphere! See above. I just said that presets for the difficulties that short-cut through that would be totally OK, as would the possibility to save your own preferences as new presets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, DunaManiac said: This discussion is getting a little bit heated but I do agree with @Bej Kerman that there should be different modes in the game, and by extension, CERTAIN options. I do partially agree with @Brikoleur that some options like life support, planet resizing and other "compromises" should not be implemented. But I do agree with different modes, what you described is "Sandbox Mode" and it is essentially an option. KSP itself is based on how YOU want to play, not how the developers mandate it. Simply for freedom of how you want to play, I believe options are needed, especially on the consoles where there will be no mod support. I agree. <snip> 2 hours ago, Brikoleur said: See above. I just said that presets for the difficulties that short-cut through that would be totally OK, as would the possibility to save your own preferences as new presets. Ah, so you do want options? Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said: Ah, so you do want options? Bej. Please. Go back to my OP. Re-read the last paragraph in it. I addressed this already there. Yes, I think sliders for Science, Funds, rewards, and resource abundance are fine. Presets for those sliders are totally fine too. Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brikoleur said: Bej. Please. Go back to my OP. Re-read the last paragraph in it. I addressed this already there. Yes, I think sliders for Science, Funds, rewards, and resource abundance are fine. I'm not going to click through the entire tech tree and all the building upgrades because <snip> wants customisation to be removed. Imagine not being able to disable the comms links! I'm not going to screw about chucking satellites everywhere to get something on a different celestial body. Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: I'm not going to click through the entire tech tree and all the building upgrades because <snip> wants customisation to be removed Okay, I'll also allow you to save games as templates for new careers, and bundle in a template which has all the tech tree unlocked with all the parts bought, all the buildings upgraded, and a cool billion in your bank account. I'll even name that template "Sandbox." How's that sound? 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: Imagine not being able to disable the comms links! I'm not going to screw about chucking satellites everywhere to get something on a different celestial body. So send a crewed mission, they don't need CommNet. If there is a meaningful gameplay distinction between probes and crewed pods, that's good -- it makes the gameplay richer and gives more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Brikoleur said: So send a crewed mission, they don't need CommNet But what if I want to send a probe and not mess around with Commnet, which is what you see as an ideal game for some reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said: But what if I want to send a probe and not mess around with Commnet, which is what you see as an ideal game for some reason? Then you plan for signal blackouts or build a relay network first. And if you really don't want CommNet, then you write a mod that disables it, or get someone else to do it for you. (Hmm, could you do this just by editing the part configurations...?) Edit: I take it that we've established that you can, in fact, have one game mode that fits all...? Edit 2: or hey, alternatively: I will personally craft you a career template with a relay constellation around every body in the system, and upload that template to the community template library linked directly from the "New game" screen. That way you won't have to worry about signal blackouts. Happy yet? Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aurelius Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 While I agree that too many options can be problematic for both development complexity and potentially confusing players, I also respectfully disagree with the assertion that options are universally bad. I can get behind the idea of one "canon" game mode with settings and enabled features that most closely matches the dev's vision of the game and receives the most balacing focus and is clearly labeled as the way the game is intended to be played. However, I also understand that some features like life support and comm networks which I would want in the game for the full career experience would be annoying to deal with if you're just wanting to casually mess around in something like sandbox (which is a core part of KSP and will return) and would need a way to be disabled for sandbox if nothing else. If the devs are already enabling these features to be turned off for sandbox, then it's not really adding dev complexity to allow players to turn these off for a custom career, and by putting these options under a custom mode instead of the standard career the devs can make it obvious that it's not the "recommended" way to play and maybe even have a disclaimer to that effect if balance is a bit wonky due to the particular combination of settings. On a tangent, I also agree with earlier posts in that KSP's balance/gameplay problems are a result of the way the game was developed without a coherent plan and with placeholder being tacked on placeholder that resulted in the poorly balanced options we have now, and the options issues are a symptom of these development problems and not the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Lord Aurelius said: However, I also understand that some features like life support and comm networks which I would want in the game for the full career experience would be annoying to deal with if you're just wanting to casually mess around in something like sandbox (which is a core part of KSP and will return) and would need a way to be disabled for sandbox if nothing else. As I've demonstrated in my exchange with Bej above, sandbox does not need to be a separate mode: functionally the same result can be had simply by starting the single game mode in a different world state. I do not think LS or CommNet would significantly cramp anyone's style if the Mission Simulator was included. You could magic yourself anywhere you like with that instantly, without having to worry about life support or comms. Moreover, if the game let you save world states as career templates, the community could quickly and easily produce templates where, for example, every body in the system has a relay constellation around it, giving effectively interruption-free comms everywhere. Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Brikoleur said: Then you plan for signal blackouts or build a relay network first. But what if I don't want to deal with all that <snip> and send a probe without having to use bulky pods? Edited February 29, 2020 by Geonovast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said: But what if I don't want to deal with all that <snip> and send a probe without having to use bulky pods? Load up a community-made world state that has a relay constellation already in place around the body where you want to send the probe, or mod the parts so that probes don't need signal for control? Edited February 29, 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Brikoleur said: Load up a community-made world state that has a relay constellation already in place around the body where you want to send the probe, or mod the parts so that probes don't need signal for control? What if I don't want to deal with that nonsense? It's like you don't want KSP to be casual, even though it's meant to be a casual spaceflight sim. Edited February 29, 2020 by Bej Kerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, Bej Kerman said: What if I don't want to deal with that nonsense? Walk the dog. Cook up a nice curry. Go to the beach. Kiss a girl (or boy, if that's your preference). Play some other game. Lots of things you could do. 5 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said: It's like you don't want KSP to be casual, even though it's meant to be a casual spaceflight sim. The hardcore crowd accuse me of the opposite, so ... okay I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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