strider3 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) I'm desperately hoping KSP 2 fixes the entire strutting, craft stability, death wobbles and "shudder" disconnects on docking thing (I'm experiencing)? If not, I see no reason to spend any money on it because these issues are the ones that have driven me crazy from day one of my KSP 1 career. Edited March 22, 2020 by strider3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Witch Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) If you're actually desperate about it you could just install KJR. *shrug* It's curious though, I've heard of this kind of issue but never experienced it myself, and I have tons of mods including new docking ports. Maybe changing the physics delta setting will help you. Edited March 22, 2020 by Rocket Witch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Rocket Witch said: If you're actually desperate about it you could just install KJR. *shrug* It's curious though, I've heard of this kind of issue but never experienced it myself, and I have tons of mods including new docking ports. Maybe changing the physics delta setting will help you. +1 for KJR, and I've occasionally had some really wack physics interactions ( like a center engine detaching from the base, orbiting the COM and then tearing up the rocket). Sometimes you just have to embrace the jank and redesign with it in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insomn Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 I think that's the main thing. They have promised truly massive ships/stations/bases. The only way that that was ever going to happen was to hand the reigns over to some triple-a developers and run it on a new engine. I think it's the one thing that most of us ever stopped playing KSP over. You build a massive ship, it takes like 20 launches. You plan to use it to land an E size asteroid at the KSC. You hook onto it with the world's tiniest claw, and then you take it to .00001% thrust and the whole this starts a death wobble. If they truly have overcome this one issue, there will be no limit to the things we can do in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman4308 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 12 hours ago, Insomn said: I think that's the main thing. They have promised truly massive ships/stations/bases. The only way that that was ever going to happen was to hand the reigns over to some triple-a developers and run it on a new engine. I think it's the one thing that most of us ever stopped playing KSP over. You build a massive ship, it takes like 20 launches. You plan to use it to land an E size asteroid at the KSC. You hook onto it with the world's tiniest claw, and then you take it to .00001% thrust and the whole this starts a death wobble. If they truly have overcome this one issue, there will be no limit to the things we can do in game. There are several misconceptions in your post. 1) Just because a AAA publisher is backing the title doesn't mean they give AAA resources to the game. It's being made by a small team on a tiny fraction of the budget Take Two allocates to their AAA titles. 2) A better game engine will not help. Nobody in game design is possessed of a rigid-body physics engine meaningfully better than the one in Unity, and that is the bottleneck. 3) Unless I miss my guess, the KSP 2 team is doing something far smarter than trying to parallelize the monstrous problem that is rigid-body physics. They're probably going to do some sort of static or dynamic parts welding, treating groups of parts as a single part where the rigid-body physics engine is concerned. That scales up magnificently without requiring them to write a high-performance rigid-body physics engine from scratch. 4) Writing a better rigid-body physics engine won't help much, because the problem is inherently difficult to parallelize due to the self-consistent nature of trying to solve a large set of rigid-body constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 25, 2020 Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 On 3/22/2020 at 2:53 PM, Rocket Witch said: If you're actually desperate about it you could just install KJR. *shrug* It's curious though, I've heard of this kind of issue but never experienced it myself, and I have tons of mods including new docking ports. Maybe changing the physics delta setting will help you. OK...what is "KJR"? I have over the years, with lots of work and (unfortunately) lots of trial and error with strutting, auto-strutting and reaction wheel settings, fixed most of the wobbly launches and my stations "death wobbles". The latest issue is new to me in 1.7.3...one large chunk of my station will disconnect at various times...and I do mean various times. . It can happen when I choose the station from the Tracking Station, and select "Fly", it can happen when I change to the station using the "[" or "]" key to select the station while flying another craft, it can happen when I cross the 2 KM or the 200 M barrier on approach to the station, it can happen when targeting a docking port on the station or it can happen when I actually dock to the station...or it can not happen at all at any of these times. In almost all instances, the station will "shudder" a bit (nothing like the increasing "death wobbles") and one part, either a tank stack or arm, will just...drift away. I have tried building the station without some "suspect" parts mods, like Future Construction and the weldable docking ports in Konstruction...makes absolutely no difference. I have tried tweaking the physics delta setting, as you mentioned...no difference at all. I have now spent over 5 months (real time) trying to get this station put together and the only thing that works is to save before any of the above mentioned times it can happen...and, if it comes apart, go back to the save and try, try again...until it doesn't come apart...VERY aggravating and time consuming. I have 10 tank arms attached, of 16 total...not very good for the time spent . (see below). I will say that I have had LOTS of you try and help with this, in various threads (depending on the "possible" issue) with no luck at all...but I do so appreciate everyone trying! I have heard "I've never heard of this" or, as you said "I have heard of it but never seen it". None of us can find the "smoking gun", at this point. It ain't "pretty", by any means...just functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 30 minutes ago, strider3 said: OK...what is "KJR"? I have over the years, with lots of work and (unfortunately) lots of trial and error with strutting, auto-strutting and reaction wheel settings, fixed most of the wobbly launches and my stations "death wobbles". The latest issue is new to me in 1.7.3...one large chunk of my station will disconnect at various times...and I do mean various times. . It can happen when I choose the station from the Tracking Station, and select "Fly", it can happen when I change to the station using the "[" or "]" key to select the station while flying another craft, it can happen when I cross the 2 KM or the 200 M barrier on approach to the station, it can happen when targeting a docking port on the station or it can happen when I actually dock to the station...or it can not happen at all at any of these times. In almost all instances, the station will "shudder" a bit (nothing like the increasing "death wobbles") and one part, either a tank stack or arm, will just...drift away. I have tried building the station without some "suspect" parts mods, like Future Construction and the weldable docking ports in Konstruction...makes absolutely no difference. I have tried tweaking the physics delta setting, as you mentioned...no difference at all. I have now spent over 5 months (real time) trying to get this station put together and the only thing that works is to save before any of the above mentioned times it can happen...and, if it comes apart, go back to the save and try, try again...until it doesn't come apart...VERY aggravating and time consuming. I have 10 tank arms attached, of 16 total...not very good for the time spent . (see below). I will say that I have had LOTS of you try and help with this, in various threads (depending on the "possible" issue) with no luck at all...but I do so appreciate everyone trying! I have heard "I've never heard of this" or, as you said "I have heard of it but never seen it". None of us can find the "smoking gun", at this point. It ain't "pretty", by any means...just functional. KJR is the abbreviations for several mods named "Kerbal Joint Reinforcement" that help with exactly what you're describing. It uses a bit of logic and the autostrut system to prevent ships from becoming pasta noodles, and does it much better than stock autostruts could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Witch Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, strider3 said: OK...what is "KJR"? Sorry; KJR is, well, as the previous poster said. It has historically been an 'essential mod' alongside Kerbal Engineer, but since stock autostrut has been a thing it may have faded somewhat into obscurity. Here's a link for what is probably the currently maintained edition: https://github.com/KSP-RO/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement-Continued/releases Edited March 26, 2020 by Rocket Witch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 26, 2020 Author Share Posted March 26, 2020 (edited) Thank you, as always, to all of you. It reduces my aggravation level when you all offer help. Does KJR "reinforce" any joint? RE, if you attach a station part using 2 Senior docking ports...does it reinforce that connection? Or does it only work on VAB attached joints? Does anyone know if it will reinforce joints made, in flight, with the Konstruction mod "weldable" construction ports? Edited March 26, 2020 by strider3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 1 hour ago, strider3 said: Thank you, as always, to all of you. It reduces my aggravation level when you all offer help. Does KJR "reinforce" any joint? RE, if you attach a station part using 2 Senior docking ports...does it reinforce that connection? Or does it only work on VAB attached joints? Does anyone know if it will reinforce joints made, in flight, with the Konstruction mod "weldable" construction ports? Welding is taking two seperate parts and merging them into a single part, so because of how KJR works i doubt it would help with those. Not sure about it's interaction with those "Virtual" welding solutions, since those more closely resemble KJR than a true welding system. The strength of any docked connection is dependent on the size of the ports, and how securely they're connected. So KJR doesn't directly add additional reinforcement to docked ports as far as i'm aware, but KJR makes the connections between the docking port and whatever it's attached to much stronger. So it indirectly increases the strength of docked connections despite this, and it's a godsend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 27, 2020 Author Share Posted March 27, 2020 It sounds like something I need to try...you all have good things to say about it. One more question...what about existing crafts? Will it help my 75% completed space station? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, strider3 said: It sounds like something I need to try...you all have good things to say about it. One more question...what about existing crafts? Will it help my 75% completed space station? That i don't have an answer for, but i'd say likely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DStaal Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Actually, I'm pretty sure it just applies to *all* craft, so yes it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR L A Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 Have you turned the advanced tweakable "rigid attachement" on too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 27, 2020 Author Share Posted March 27, 2020 2 hours ago, MR L A said: Have you turned the advanced tweakable "rigid attachement" on too? Yes, I tried that...it didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 27, 2020 Author Share Posted March 27, 2020 (edited) It sounds like it might do everything I'm looking for? The only thing I don't see mentioned, below, is docking ports...but it's worth a try. https://github.com/KSP-RO/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement-Continued Edited March 27, 2020 by strider3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Prates Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 On 3/23/2020 at 8:10 PM, Starman4308 said: 2) A better game engine will not help. Nobody in game design is possessed of a rigid-body physics engine meaningfully better than the one in Unity, and that is the bottleneck. Right, and besides, there already is all the accumulated experience with the current engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 Success! After adding the KJR mod, I have been able to complete the last 3 tank sections of the station...with only 1 disconnect of a part, and I'm pretty sure that one anomaly was "self-induced" as I switched to the station from the arriving ship and immediately started rolling the station towards the arriving tanks. It does appear that KJR requires just a bit of patience when switching crafts, to allow it's function to perform, before jumping all over SAS (not sure if I'm making sense, but, it seems the physics "dampening" needs to complete before you get all crazy with moving the craft). At none of the other points mentioned above, including switching crafts without getting all squirrelly on the SAS, did I have any issues. Wish I had found this many moons ago . Thank you, Rocket Witch, for the suggestion! Jeb and Bill and their MK2 are still attached to the last tank stack, waiting for Bill to EVA and connect the portable struts (just in case!). A few "top off" trips with the mobil 1 refueler from Kerbin and...Duna (or Eve), here I come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider3 Posted April 5, 2020 Author Share Posted April 5, 2020 Just one more note...turn off "auto-strutting" of station parts! Although KJR is an immense improvement, there will still be very rare instances of the "shudders" and a part drifting off. AFAICT this is caused by KSP's auto-struts "re-aligning" when docking to the station (even with "Grandparent" mode). I may be wrong, but after months of trying...I'm going with my uninformed conclusions . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarnation of Chaos Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 6 hours ago, strider3 said: Just one more note...turn off "auto-strutting" of station parts! Although KJR is an immense improvement, there will still be very rare instances of the "shudders" and a part drifting off. AFAICT this is caused by KSP's auto-struts "re-aligning" when docking to the station (even with "Grandparent" mode). I may be wrong, but after months of trying...I'm going with my uninformed conclusions . Yeah Stock Autostruts do have to be used carefully with KJR in some cases; iv'e had some really "Interesting" interactions between them xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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