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[1.12.x] GravityTurn continued - Automated Efficient Launches


linuxgurugamer
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13 hours ago, immolated said:

Nope no other mods except hyper warp. I'm just really low, and really fast, which is the only way to make solid SSTO work, I think. I'll experiment with getting higher before the turn.

Actually, when it comes to Gravity Turn efficiency, there is barely no way to get better performance than going as shallow as you can. Atmospheric drag is a joke versus the gravity losses, really.

You have full SRB that might change just a bit this statement but I would bet on the opposite without thinking too much.

I'm running a whole automated experiment of launching hundreds similar rockets at different Pitch Angle and different Pitch Velocity Trigger, for different liftoff TWR, and there is one solid conclusion so far : the shallower, the better. The very best launch of each rocket configuration is the one that not fail while being damn low in atmosphere. I use to have my rocket around 0-5° above the horizon at 30-35km maximum, for the optimum Pitch Velocity.

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1 hour ago, Angel33Demon said:

Is there any plans to include a method to limit ignitions? I'm using Real Fuels with this and the fact that it triggers all my ignitions to maintain the apoapsis is a pain. 

Nope.  Sorry, but that would ls be a lot of work to do correctly 

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It's been a long I have not played around with this mod, but i'm still interrested by what it represents.

Is there a new button to deactivate the throttle so that the launcher remains at 100% all the way ? Or an option to allow this throttle only past an altitude ?

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4 hours ago, Dakitess said:

It's been a long I have not played around with this mod, but i'm still interrested by what it represents.

Is there a new button to deactivate the throttle so that the launcher remains at 100% all the way ? Or an option to allow this throttle only past an altitude ?

Well, part of the "magic" of Gravity Turn is to limit the throttle/TWR so that liftoff burns are more efficient. Managing max pressure and fighting gravity vs. atmospheric drag is all mixed in with that.

19 hours ago, Angel33Demon said:

Is there any plans to include a method to limit ignitions? I'm using Real Fuels with this and the fact that it triggers all my ignitions to maintain the apoapsis is a pain. 

I *do* wonder if there's a way to peg an engine at a minimum throttle setting-- essentially keeping it lit, but operating at minimal thrust? That way Gravity Turn could throttle down, but not burn through re-lights as it trims during the coast to AP. Is that even a thing with rockets? Probably not to the degree that KSP has trained us to use. :) 

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2 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

I *do* wonder if there's a way to peg an engine at a minimum throttle setting-- essentially keeping it lit, but operating at minimal thrust? That way Gravity Turn could throttle down, but not burn through re-lights as it trims during the coast to AP. Is that even a thing with rockets? Probably not to the degree that KSP has trained us to use. :) 

Most engines (at least in RealFuels) have a minimum throttle setting (usually at 0.05 or 0.1). If the rockets are kept lit, the engines will end up causing the craft to use up a ton of delta-v and end up in a much higher orbit because of how shallow the ascents this mod makes. The only solution (I think) is to implement something similar to the prime-vector guidance (where all the burns are precalculated, and all the stages try to be used up in one go rather than repeatedly throttle up and down) of the MechJeb's Ascent Guidance, which as @linuxgurugamer says is a lot of work. 

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On 4/2/2021 at 7:29 AM, Dakitess said:

Is there a new button to deactivate the throttle so that the launcher remains at 100% all the way ?

Yes, "Sensitivity".  The value entered here is the minimum throttle setting.  So entering 1 means the throttle should never go below 100%.
 

Quote

Or an option to allow this throttle only past an altitude ?

No

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On 4/2/2021 at 6:24 PM, Beetlecat said:

Well, part of the "magic" of Gravity Turn is to limit the throttle/TWR so that liftoff burns are more efficient. Managing max pressure and fighting gravity vs. atmospheric drag is all mixed in with that.

I beg to differ :p Yes indeed, there is some limits and optimization to deal with, regarding the fight between Gravity Losses, Atmospheric Drag and Steering Losses, but i've never find myself doing a better GT with some throttle (except for the finetuning at the end for Ap altitude, if needed, but I kinda don't), than going all the way 100% : I don't know what LiftOff TWR would require some throttle to benefitable, but that must be over 2.5. Past 2.1 it's already tricky to perform a proper GT.

Sooo yeah, i've never quite really understand why all the Autopilot use the Throttle that much. I can understand in a real life context, in RSS, with limited amount of ignition for instance and the necessity to get in orbit without cutting off.

But in Stock KSP, if you need to throttle down in order to avoid the AP to go crazy, then just turn sooner / harder to get a even more agressive GT, and you'll get better performance :)

Though, that's of cource a really nice option to have, to throttle according the time to AP. It really makes sense, but not that much for GT efficiency.

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One way to avoid the correction ignitions is just to switch of  gravity turn once Ap is at is target. Just set it a bit higher to take into account the loses. AFAIK this is the way it is done in real rockets.

Edited by Tacombel
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The autostage function works if I use SRB or Liquid Fuel tanks,
but it doesn't if I use LF tanks radially attached through enabled crossfeed separators, and I have to separate them manually.
is there a way to make it works as you expect it to works, i.e. separating the tanks when they are empty?

Edited by antipro
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for maintianing this LGG,

I find it so useful, I basically won't play KSP without it.

However, I've been having trouble with it recently, on some vessels it will only run for a half a second before GT hangs, KSP keeps going, but GT stops controling the craft and the stats stop updating.  I check the log and I see this:

[EXC 14:08:15.763] KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.
	System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[TKey,TValue].get_Item (TKey key) (at <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0)
	GravityTurn.StageController.InverseStageDecouplesActiveOrIdleEngineOrTank (System.Int32 inverseStage, Vessel v, System.Collections.Generic.List`1[T] tankResources) (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	GravityTurn.StageController.Update () (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	GravityTurn.GravityTurner.fly (FlightCtrlState s) (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	Vessel.FeedInputFeed () (at <48dcb08e2e1542e2af1286b02d2eb072>:0)
	FlightInputHandler.FixedUpdate () (at <48dcb08e2e1542e2af1286b02d2eb072>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)

in the log over and over again.

Removing a part sometimes fixes it. The part remove varies, I've fixed it be removing an octagonal strut, or changing where a SRB was mounted. Once changing a Structural Fusalage to the same size tank fixed it.

Any thoughts?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nicias said:

Thanks for maintianing this LGG,

I find it so useful, I basically won't play KSP without it.

However, I've been having trouble with it recently, on some vessels it will only run for a half a second before GT hangs, KSP keeps going, but GT stops controling the craft and the stats stop updating.  I check the log and I see this:

[EXC 14:08:15.763] KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.
	System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[TKey,TValue].get_Item (TKey key) (at <ad04dee02e7e4a85a1299c7ee81c79f6>:0)
	GravityTurn.StageController.InverseStageDecouplesActiveOrIdleEngineOrTank (System.Int32 inverseStage, Vessel v, System.Collections.Generic.List`1[T] tankResources) (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	GravityTurn.StageController.Update () (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	GravityTurn.GravityTurner.fly (FlightCtrlState s) (at <23ae9f3020c6456798d28daec5c5420d>:0)
	Vessel.FeedInputFeed () (at <48dcb08e2e1542e2af1286b02d2eb072>:0)
	FlightInputHandler.FixedUpdate () (at <48dcb08e2e1542e2af1286b02d2eb072>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)
 

in the log over and over again.

Removing a part sometimes fixes it. The part remove varies, I've fixed it be removing an octagonal strut, or changing where a SRB was mounted. Once changing a Structural Fusalage to the same size tank fixed it.

Any thoughts?

 

 

Yes.  Full log file, snippets are useless

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  • 2 weeks later...

New version has been causing problems for me. Doesn't integrate with Mechjeb for the circularizing burn, and when it's supposed to be doing that, it causes a lot of game lag, freezes my warp, etc. Need to save and reload to unbreak it every time.

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43 minutes ago, Frostiken said:

New version has been causing problems for me. Doesn't integrate with Mechjeb for the circularizing burn, and when it's supposed to be doing that, it causes a lot of game lag, freezes my warp, etc. Need to save and reload to unbreak it every time.

You have issues, but no one can help without any information.  Start off with the log file, details about your system might as also be useful

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I have a problem, with some vessels on launch. I use "First Guess" and then hit launch, but my rocket just "hops" on the launchpad, and never gets off the ground... Any ideas of the potential cause?

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2 hours ago, metroic said:

Any ideas of the potential cause?

no yet, but with the 1.8.1.2 mod version that problem never occurs.
same "hopping" issue here since version 1.8.1.3.
with 1.8.1.3 or newer, a little vessel modification, i.e. adding, removing or moving a battery or other small parts, may sometimes avoid the issue.

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11 hours ago, metroic said:

I have a problem, with some vessels on launch. I use "First Guess" and then hit launch, but my rocket just "hops" on the launchpad, and never gets off the ground... Any ideas of the potential cause?

 

9 hours ago, antipro said:

no yet, but with the 1.8.1.2 mod version that problem never occurs.
same "hopping" issue here since version 1.8.1.3.
with 1.8.1.3 or newer, a little vessel modification, i.e. adding, removing or moving a battery or other small parts, may sometimes avoid the issue.

If these are stock vessel, how about getting me a craft file to test?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

If these are stock vessel, how about getting me a craft file to test?

just to point out,

on November 27, 2020:
I've sent you a video explaining the problem.
Then you said: "please get me a copy of the craft file for that vessel, so I can test."
I gave ya 13 vessels, you did test the five with which I had "hopping" experience, but found nothing.

The same day I said:
"1 - I load the vessel "gilly flyby", launch it and it fails.
  2 - I revert to vehicle assembly, removing the upper parts, Z-200 battery and FL-R10 RCS fuel tank.
  3 - Launch it again successfully.
It's weird, isn't it?
"

your answer was: "Something is wrong with the install.  Make a new install with just GT  and its dependencies".
 

on November 29, 2020:
I specified that:
"
all my 13 crafts have a problem involving autostage that doesn't work.
After reverting to v1812: no more engines and autostage issues.".

on January 21:
another user said: "
the rocket sits on the pad going to full speed, throttling down to 0, back to full... and so on."

on
January 22, January 23:
Little discussion about the version number format.

on January 24:
You say: "First, zip up the entire save folder and get it to me, and then zip up your whole GameData directory (without the Squad folders).
 Something is happening, and I cannot replicate what's going on.  Send me the links via PM please."

The same day I've sent ya both "saves" and "gamedata" folder via pm.
your answer was: "
Thank you.  Will let you know what I find, may take a day or so, you got this faster than I expected.".

on April 7:
I've asked for a, imho, fundamental feature.
no answer: totally ignored.
But this is another story that has nothing to do with "autostage" and "hopping at lauchpad" issues.


since then, January 24, I have never read anything else about the problem, until yesterday:
on May 21:
another user say: "my rocket just "hops" on the launchpad, and never gets off the ground..."

so today you ask for vessels again,
and I'm going again to send ya both "saves" and  "gamedata" folders, via pm.
you have pm.


 

Testing GT v1815 with all my rockets:

Test 1: my last vessel, "tylo lander" launch with last GT v1815 = no more thrust at stage 11 = launch fails.
tylo%20lander%20and%20GT%201815%20=%20no

Test 2: vessel "laythe probes launcher" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
3x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0mvn5ejnprkyf3b/AADES6otlA0Fj_TlOIgwMJ8va?dl=0

Test 3: vessel "laythe orbit" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jppqa8335hf9fsm/AAAzx2NiXI7jFtO-H9Lkt9BIa?dl=0

Test 4: vessel "jool int relays launcher" = no thrust on LF engine and no "hopping", probably cause it never touch the ground + no turn control = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wclqt0vefwj4al4/AAA8SFWu0joC0ktf6cYlGVyFa?dl=0

Test 5: vessel "jool ext relays launcher" = "hopping" at launch + fairing opened too early = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1dl2r177m6xs2ei/AAA5w4rGoD3uA5cLtgqvvGNfa?dl=0

Test 6: vessel "ike orbiter" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nypb835d21g0ouk/AACk9b-SHnyIxGfKo1Lj7Wmsa?dl=0

Test 7: vessel "ike lander" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/orp4c0nh97id3x1/AADXELNon-2X3UaWBgw-j0WLa?dl=0

Test 8: vessel "gilly orbiter" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
2x videos: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vo8p0rlplki3l32/AAC5gupnEAkDgn27sA9GlUxXa?dl=0

Test 9: vessel "gilly lander" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
1x video: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2osxjz1t2wfc52q/AAC66aOZxtG0NA-wHelC8dSRa?dl=0

Test 10: vessel "eve orbiter" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
1x video: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sy8w04nzd0xgs3f/AAC9DBstvuz7ikFcz8e1eGK4a?dl=0

Test 11: vessel "duna lander" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
1x video: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6djwvbpv74g9hfm/AAAwhxpYWKJeyec3giD54TWma?dl=0

Test 12: vessel "dres lander" = "hopping" at launch = launch fails.
1x video: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rhxqa6cjfvm24ng/AACosF5R82YpNsvZr4LG_jJ8a?dl=0


Said this,
1 - all these vessels above, I've tested and they failed with GT v1815, they have already been launched successfully with GT v1812.
2 - except Test 1: "tylo lander" and Test 3: "laythe orbit", all the others vessels that have failed, have two or more SRB involved in the assembly.
3 -
the totality of the vessels that
I've sent you before via pm, which are not present in the tests above, can launch fine with GT v1815, and some have SRB too.


 

VAB small changes that turn launches working:

Test 4: vessel "jool int relays launcher"
removed Z-4K Battery + added 2x Z-400 Batteries + moved antennae = successfully launched.
jool%20int%20relays%20launcher.jpg?dl=1



Test 5: vessel "jool ext relays launcher"
same as above: removed Z-4K Battery + added 2x Z-400 Batteries + moved antennae = successfully launched.
jool%20ext%20relays%20launcher.jpg?dl=1



Test 6: vessel "ike orbiter"
same as above: removed Z-4K Battery + added 2x Z-400 Batteries = successfully launched.
ike%20orbiter.jpg?dl=1

 

Test 7: vessel "ike lander"
same as above: removed Z-4K Battery + added 4x Z-100 Batteries = successfully launched.
ike%20lander.jpg?dl=1


Test 11: vessel "duna lander"
same as above: removed Z-4K Battery + added 2x Z-400 Batteries + moved parachutes and antenna = successfully launched.
duna%20lander.jpg?dl=1



Test 12: vessel "dres lander"
same as above: removed Z-4K Battery + added 2x Z-400 Batteries + moved antenna = successfully launched.
dres%20lander.jpg?dl=1


The other vessels have not yet been able to modify them to work.

Edited by antipro
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5 hours ago, antipro said:

just to point out,

on November 27, 2020:
I've sent you a video explaining the problem.
Then you said: "please get me a copy of the craft file for that vessel, so I can test."
I gave ya 13 vessels, you did test the five with which I had "hopping" experience, but found nothing.

Hmmm.  Yes, you did.  And at the time, I was unable to find any problem.

‘Since November Ive worked and updated many mods, to the point that I don’t necessarily remember problems from 6 months ago, nor do I have  time to always go back through a thread history to refresh my memory.

‘the images above aren’t displaying properly on my iPad, I’ll try to look at this post again later when I’m on my computer.  I also saw your IM, will try to look at this again tomorrow if I have time.

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13 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

to the point that I don’t necessarily remember problems from 6 months ago, nor do I have  time to always go back through a thread history to refresh my memory.

of course, I have never doubted it, and it is in fact for this reason that I think you can find useful,
my summary on this issue
and other information about it,
as well as the fact that to date another user has encountered the same problem, for a total of 3 users.

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Anyone else experience this?

Stage 1 (well, 6 because KSP counts from the top down...)

5 Liquid Fueled Engines

Stage 2

4 SRB and Launch Clamps

Hit "LAUNCH": Liquid engines fire up at full throttle.

Hit Space to light SRBs and release clamps: Throttle goes to ZERO (should never drop below 33% per settings) Rocket flys with no guidance at all (no deflection of the Pitch Roll Yaw needles) fall over and eventually into the ground.

 

Tried putting all engines and clamps in 1st stage, no good.

Tried manual throttle and SAS and I can throttle up and SAS turns on (shouldn't both ignore me?)

 

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