Broken lift

[IkranMakto]

How? Why? Too many questions, no answer.

Breaking Ground's blades:

• produce 4 times more lift
• weight almost twice less
• causes less drag
• stall at 12-13 degrees? Really? 

Developers please edit stall angle, lift and drag of new parts 

Edited March 26, 2020 by IkranMakto

[Kerbart]

10 minutes ago, IkranMakto said:

Developers please edit stall angle, lift and drag of new parts 

And break every single helicopter? That will go over well.

I'm pretty sure the number of players using the helicopter blades as... well, helicopter blades will by far outnumber the players who use them as aircraft wings and consider them OP.

The current aero model is trying to make things that look like airplanes fly like airplanes, and make things that look like helicopters fly like helicopters. Anything beyond that is wishful thinking and I don't think subject to a hyperbole like "broken." Do aircraft no longer fly? Can you fly a helicopter to Minmus? No? Then it's not broken.

[IkranMakto]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

And break every single helicopter?

No? Just increase deploy angle or rotor speed. They already "broke every single helicopter" upon releasing updates 1.7.3, 1.8, 1.8.1 and 1.9. My first helicoper does not even work with current version. 

Spoiler

8 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

well, helicopter blades will by far outnumber the players who use them as aircraft wings and consider them OP.

They are OP with helicopters as well. 1200 kg helicopter with single rotor should produce only 5 hp to lift.
 

14 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Do aircraft no longer fly? Can you fly a helicopter to Minmus? No? Then it's not broken.

If your car's brakes would became 5 times weaker you'll consider them broken.

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, IkranMakto said:

  Reveal hidden contents

If your car's brakes would became 5 times weaker you'll consider them broken.

If they became 5 times stronger I would not. And that appears to be the current problem.

[IkranMakto]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

If they became 5 times stronger I would not. And that appears to be the current problem.

I'm sure you will since no one likes to kiss steering wheel when slightly touching a pedal. I don't want to see a helicopter climbing up with 1 degree(!) deploy and change it to negative just to land it back. 

[AHHans]

21 hours ago, IkranMakto said:

No? Just increase deploy angle or rotor speed.

Well, the point about the propeller and helicopter blades is that the current rotors are already at the max RPM that the physics engine can handle. So that's not going to happen.

And I think that >99% of all KSP players agree that this:

21 hours ago, Kerbart said:

The current aero model is trying to make things that look like airplanes fly like airplanes, and make things that look like helicopters fly like helicopters.

is the part that they actually care about.

[Kerbart]

23 hours ago, IkranMakto said:

No? Just increase deploy angle or rotor speed. They already "broke every single helicopter" upon releasing updates 1.7.3, 1.8, 1.8.1 and 1.9. My first helicoper does not even work with current version.

Ah, the selective "realism is good but only when I like it" approach. The 500 RPM limit the game offers is pretty close to what helicopter rotors in real life operate at. Yes, the rotors of model helicopters run much faster, but is that what we are after?

[IkranMakto]

1 hour ago, AHHans said:

Well, the point about the propeller and helicopter blades is that the current rotors are already at the max RPM that the physics engine can handle. So that's not going to happen.

I'm talking about helicopter blades. My helicopters have rotor speeds: 130, 170, 190 and 200 rpm. It's more than enough to fly. And I usually use deploy angle for stock blades from 1 to 4 degrees. Compare to real helicopters. 
 

6 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Ah, the selective "realism is good but only when I like it" approach. The 500 RPM limit.....

Real helicopters operate at 180-380 rpm depends on rotor size and number of blades.  When set 380 rpm in KSP a heli will fly like weightless if it's not 5 times heavier than it should be with that size. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by IkranMakto

[Kerbart]

6 minutes ago, IkranMakto said:

I'm talking about helicopter blades. My helicopters have rotor speeds: 130, 170, 190 and 200 rpm. It's more than enough to fly. And I usually use deploy angle for stock blades from 1 to 4 degrees. Compare to real helicopters. 
 

Real helicopters operate at 180-380 rpm depends on rotor size and number of blades.  When set 380 rpm in KSP a heli will fly like weightless if it's not 5 times heavier than it should be with that size. 

Ooh, it's the other way  around. I wasn't aware of that, sorry.

I still wouldn't call the game broken - maybe helicopter aero dynamics. And those that use helicopters to retrieve landed vessels, or to build flying aircraft carriers (marvel style) might be less pleased with realistic lift ratios. Perhaps, either by mod or as a plea to @SQUAD, the solution would be a tweakable to scale the lift produced for rotor blades between 0-100% ?

[IkranMakto]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

or to build flying aircraft carriers (marvel style) might be less pleased with realistic lift ratios

They are not afraid of part clipping. As kerbals say: add more boosters blades!
Also I don't want to make BG blades weak. I want more operable AoA and less lift for each degrees. Remember, now it stalls at 12-13 degrees. But every other wing in the game stalls at 30-40 degrees. Also that's why players can't make fast planes with fixed prop. High pitch prevents producing enough thrust when speed is low.
 

 

[KerikBalm]

Many KSP parts are unrealistically massive.

Parts with more mass than they should have results in lower dV, which sort of fits in with the stock size system, and encourages staging even at the 1/10th scale... but then when building planes, they are heavier than they should be, so then aero needs to change... and...

Its actually a bit of a balancing mess as it is

I think its not so bad as it is, and a bit of a miracle that it's not worse.