[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[RainDreamer]

Well, The way I play with FAR is just...trial and error. I have no idea what the number means. I simply adding/removing, or moving parts around until the number goes all green on different speed and altitudes I think I would fly at. It works. Kind of. Would really appreciate a tutorial series explaining what things means.

[kcs123]

Well, The way I play with FAR is just...trial and error. I have no idea what the number means. I simply adding/removing, or moving parts around until the number goes all green on different speed and altitudes I think I would fly at. It works. Kind of. Would really appreciate a tutorial series explaining what things means.

Before going for FAR tutorial, your first stop should be Basic Aircraft Design thread. It provides usefull tips that doesn't apply only for FAR. On the last pages on the same thread I have already wrote links for additional usefull tutorials. Wanderfound filled gap with additional links few posts below mine.

You may also check links in my signatures, although mentioned craft files are obsolete and I didn't have time to rebuild them for 0.90, still provides good examples.

Hope that this helps for starting. Other then that learning with "method of failed attempts" also works

[RainDreamer]

-post-

Oh, I actually did read that. I used that as a kind of general guideline to build space plane from before I even use FAR. Then after that I used NEAR, following the same principles, they works just as well. I feel confident enough to graduate to FAR after that. Now that I used FAR, and with all these data available for me, I feel like I could do a bit more than just trial and error (but following the principles in the guide) like before. But that would mean I need to learn what the numbers really means, and what I can use them for, that way I can try my hand with more advanced designs, like forward swept wings with angled tails, and so on.

[Tidus Klein]

@Ferram... Ummm Ferram I have a question. Have I discovered/ made a magic number/ unicorn plane, in other words is it normal to have a plane capable of 45+ degrees of attack before stall?. I have been playing with FAR sense .21 and I've never seen anything like this. Even on my super 42+ gee maneuver plane before aero failures.

Ps I'll post pics of the plane and graph when I get home I'm at work now.

Pps. I haven't changed any of the graphs stats by the way only the AOA limit. (Yes 45 degrees at Mach 0.2)

Edited December 31, 2014 by Tidus Klein

[tetryds]

Well, The way I play with FAR is just...trial and error. I have no idea what the number means. I simply adding/removing, or moving parts around until the number goes all green on different speed and altitudes I think I would fly at. It works. Kind of. Would really appreciate a tutorial series explaining what things means.

I am developing a series of video tutorials going from the very basics to as deep as possible.

I thought I could just make the first ones but it ends up that I have to plan way more ahead to avoid confusion.

I also don't want to release a lot of small videos which barelly explain anything.

So, even if FAR stops working for a while/at all, we still have it working for 0.90.

[Hodo]

@Ferram... Ummm Ferram I have a question. Have I discovered/ made a magic number/ unicorn plane, in other words is it normal to have a plane capable of 45+ degrees of attack before stall?. I have been playing with FAR sense .21 and I've never seen anything like this. Even on my super 42+ gee maneuver plane before aero failures.

Ps I'll post pics of the plane and graph when I get home I'm at work now.

Pps. I haven't changed any of the graphs stats by the way only the AOA limit. (Yes 45 degrees at Mach 0.2)

Yes it is possible in real life the SU-27 does it at airshows all the time. In FAR not sure.

But I can say on the complexity of FAR, it isn't that complex, I have used it for a year without ever looking at the graphs, I just built according to the old pilot addage, "if it looks right it will fly right."

[HoneyFox]

@Ferram... Ummm Ferram I have a question. Have I discovered/ made a magic number/ unicorn plane, in other words is it normal to have a plane capable of 45+ degrees of attack before stall?. I have been playing with FAR sense .21 and I've never seen anything like this. Even on my super 42+ gee maneuver plane before aero failures.

Ps I'll post pics of the plane and graph when I get home I'm at work now.

Pps. I haven't changed any of the graphs stats by the way only the AOA limit. (Yes 45 degrees at Mach 0.2)

I don't know if it's because of any kind of bug that makes your aircraft not stalling. For me LEF and AoA% helps a lot (maybe too much) when dealing with stalling issue at high AoA.

This aircraft is capable of flying at 50+ deg of AOA as well as doing barrel rolls with that kind of AoA. I haven't got an engine with TVC capability for it yet, otherwise it should be able to perform more aggresive maneuvers like cobra, kulbit, tail slide, etc.

These LEF helps to avoid stalling of main wing and Canards with proper AoA% setting remain effective even in such situation.

Edited December 31, 2014 by HoneyFox

[Ratzap]

I installed 0.14.6 and when I launched a new rocket KSP crashed as I switched to the globe view. The log contained a lot of NaN errors from FAR trying to calculate something on the winglets. I reverted back to 0.14.5.1 and everything was fine again. I did as recommended, I removed the entire old FAR folder when I installed 0.14.6.

Has anyone else had this problem?

[Hodo]

I installed 0.14.6 and when I launched a new rocket KSP crashed as I switched to the globe view. The log contained a lot of NaN errors from FAR trying to calculate something on the winglets. I reverted back to 0.14.5.1 and everything was fine again. I did as recommended, I removed the entire old FAR folder when I installed 0.14.6.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Can't say I have. Is it an old rocket design from .25? Because I have found a lot of Errors thrown on some of my old designs when I transfered them over to .90.

[Tidus Klein]

I don't know if it's because of any kind of bug that makes your aircraft not stalling. For me LEF and AoA% helps a lot (maybe too much) when dealing with stalling issue at high AoA.

This aircraft is capable of flying at 50+ deg of AOA as well as doing barrel rolls with that kind of AoA. I haven't got an engine with TVC capability for it yet, otherwise it should be able to perform more aggresive maneuvers like cobra, kulbit, tail slide, etc.

These LEF helps to avoid stalling of main wing and Canards with proper AoA% setting remain effective even in such

Holy crap?! And to think I had something special ow we'll I wouldn't think leading edge peaces would effect something that much. I'll have to try it.

[Rebelgamer]

Can't say I have. Is it an old rocket design from .25? Because I have found a lot of Errors thrown on some of my old designs when I transfered them over to .90.

I installed 0.14.6 and when I launched a new rocket KSP crashed as I switched to the globe view. The log contained a lot of NaN errors from FAR trying to calculate something on the winglets. I reverted back to 0.14.5.1 and everything was fine again. I did as recommended, I removed the entire old FAR folder when I installed 0.14.6.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Is the winglet in question from Procedural Wings? I've seen it in another thread where FAR threw an exception when dealing with a particular winglet from pwings(repeated over 70k times before KSP crashed).

[Deathsoul097]

Hey, is there a link to the 0.25 version? I'm playing on an un-updated install, and dont want to update, but I would like to use FAR.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Deathsoul097

[Ratzap]

Is the winglet in question from Procedural Wings? I've seen it in another thread where FAR threw an exception when dealing with a particular winglet from pwings(repeated over 70k times before KSP crashed).

No, the stock av-r8 winglet.

[Kragrathea]

At one point this plugin conflicted with my PlanetFactory plugin. I just tried it with the latest version and as far as I can tell it works fine. Did you fix something? Or am I just missing the broken bit?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/65401-WIP-0-90-PlanetFactory-CE

Krag

[ferram4]

FAR has never done anything that would conflict with PlanetFactory itself. There have always been cases where careless planet creators would set multiple bodies to use the same FlightGlobalsIndex, which would then cause issues, because FAR uses that index to identify planets for the purpose of applying atmosphere data.

It's nothing either of us can fix; it has always been a problem created only by planet makers who refuse to take responsibility for the issues.

[Kragrathea]

FAR has never done anything that would conflict with PlanetFactory itself. There have always been cases where careless planet creators would set multiple bodies to use the same FlightGlobalsIndex, which would then cause issues, because FAR uses that index to identify planets for the purpose of applying atmosphere data.

It's nothing either of us can fix; it has always been a problem created only by planet makers who refuse to take responsibility for the issues.

Thanks. I will detect that case and pop up an error. Maybe FAR could do the same in case other planet plugins have the same issue? I'll give you the code I wind up with.

Krag

[Northstar1989]

Hi Ferram,

I'm sure you've heard this suggested over and over lately, but have you considered approaching Squad to see about having FAR included in the aerodynamics overhaul that is being (or will soon be) worked on for KSP?

I think that your skill+experience and prior work on the KSP aerodynamics problem would go a LONG way towards helping Squad understand some of the choices they make with overhauling aerodynamics (I highly doubt anyone at Squad has much background in the subject). It might also be possible to convince them to include some or all the code from FAR, which would be awesome, as I think it's currently a GREAT solution for KSP's aerodynamics...

Regards,

Northstar

[Tidus Klein]

Hi Ferram,

I'm sure you've heard this suggested over and over lately, but have you considered approaching Squad to see about having FAR included in the aerodynamics overhaul that is being (or will soon be) worked on for KSP?

I think that your skill+experience and prior work on the KSP aerodynamics problem would go a LONG way towards helping Squad understand some of the choices they make with overhauling aerodynamics (I highly doubt anyone at Squad has much background in the subject). It might also be possible to convince them to include some or all the code from FAR, which would be awesome, as I think it's currently a GREAT solution for KSP's aerodynamics...

Regards,

Northstar

I second this notion, it was actually Simplier/ easier to build planes with FAR

[smjjames]

Question here, I have a 64 bit windows and am running 64 bit KSP (I think), how do I make steam or the .exe run the 32 bit version?

I would have done a search, but the forum search engine refuses to search for things that only have two characters.

[Crzyrndm]

Steam runs the 32-bit version unless told otherwise

[smjjames]

Hm, how do I tell whether it's running the 32x or 64x version?

Edit: Well, it's working I guess. However, in the FAR menu that shows up in the KSC screen, aerodynamic failures tab, I deleted all of the boxes to the left, should I have done that and how do I fix?, and also, when I delete the top one, the FAR debug window goes blank.

Edit: Eh, I decided to just reinstall the mod. I'm still wondering if I was supposed to do that and what happens if I do delete those boxes.

Edited January 2, 2015 by smjjames

[Hektos]

Got a NaN error that locked up my game shortly after launching a rocket and switching to map view. There was no crash folder, but here is the end of my output_log.txt

[PlanetariumCamera]: Focus: Untitled Space Craft

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Trajectories: attaching camera listener

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.16521978978 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.11672401827 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.11580580877 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.16423300409 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.16521978978 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.11672401827 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.11580580877 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

FAR Error: Aerodynamic force = NaN AC Loc = 1001.16423300409 AoA = 0

MAC = 1.388 B_2 = 1.311 sweepAngle = 6.12303176911189E-17

MidChordSweep = 27.6 MidChordSweepSideways = 0.111888451949879

 at R8winglet

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

getObtAtUT result is NaN! UT: 20746.9929417709

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

getObtAtUT result is NaN! UT: NaN

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

getObtAtUT result is NaN! UT: NaN

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

getObtAtUT result is NaN! UT: NaN

This repeated to the end of the log (when I had to force quit the game).

[Sandworm]

I'm dealing with a very strange issue. Does anyone no of a reason why, using identical parts, FAR might act differently between saves? I'm playing with RSS, HD textures, and a huge pile of mods (linux 64, 7+GB of memory in use). All is fine in my sandbox save, but my attempt at a career mode just ran into a wall when FAR stopped functioning. The FAR button is still there but clicking on it doesn't do anything. According to my logs it seems that the FAR module isn't being added to many parts, both stock and mod ... but only in a paticular career save. The same ships/parts in sandbox go without error.

I've reinstalled FAR/toadicus/MM and everything else that seems relevant. The fact that it just suddenly started in one save, after a couple hours of play, tells me there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with FAR. So I wouldn't call this a bug report, just a weird mod-compatibility issue in a very complex install.

[LOG 11:52:39.292] ------------------- initializing editor mode... ------------------
[LOG 11:52:39.292] editor started
[EXC 11:52:39.336] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	ToadicusTools.Tools.getFirstModuleOfType[ModuleSAS] (.Part part)
	ToadicusTools.Tools.tryGetFirstModuleOfType[ModuleSAS] (.Part part, .ModuleSAS& module)
	TweakableEverything.ModuleTweakableSAS.OnAwake ()
	PartModule.Awake ()
	UnityEngine.GameObject:SetActive(Boolean)
	ShipConstruct:LoadShip(ConfigNode)
	ShipConstruction:LoadShip(String)
	EditorLogic:Start()
[WRN 11:52:39.337] [Part]: PartModule FARBasicDragModel at probeCoreOcto2, index 5: index exceeds module count as defined in cfg.
Looking for FARBasicDragModel in other indices...
[ERR 11:52:39.337] ...no FARBasicDragModel module found on part definition. Skipping...

[WRN 11:52:39.341] [Part]: PartModule FARBasicDragModel at sasModule, index 2: index exceeds module count as defined in cfg.
Looking for FARBasicDragModel in other indices...
[ERR 11:52:39.342] ...no FARBasicDragModel module found on part definition. Skipping...

[WRN 11:52:39.344] [Part]: PartModule FARBasicDragModel at adapterSmallMiniShort, index 0: index exceeds module count as defined in cfg.
Looking for FARBasicDragModel in other indices...
[ERR 11:52:39.345] ...no FARBasicDragModel module found on part definition. Skipping...

[ferram4]

@Hektos: If no reproduction steps, no ability to address the issue. That's the way it works.

@Sandworm: I would say that since the NRE is happening in Toadicus's stuff, it's probably an issue there. Nothing I can do about someone else's code.

[Ratzap]

@Hektos: If no reproduction steps, no ability to address the issue. That's the way it works.

His problem is the exact same thing I got, reverting to 0.14.5.1 got me going again but for me it is completely reproducible. Launch rocket, switch to global map view and it's dead. I can get some logs for you if you would like to investigate.