[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[Vegetal]

1 hour ago, tetryds said:

@Vegetal I know that the bouncing thing is caused by touching down with the landing gears at angle, and has nothing to do with FAR, it's strange though that you get this behavior, have you tried changing your landing gears or moving them to another position to see if the problem persists?

Oh I know. The problem isn't with the gears themselves, if you read my description of the problem. It could be that, because of the bug, the plane is always a bit sideways on touchdown, and that makes the gear bounce. The point is: When the bug isn't manifesting itself, a certain plane can be easily landed by me. That same plane, when the bug occurs, bounces like crazy. That's me approaching and touching down with LESS than 1m/s vertical speed.

[Vegetal]

Disturbing news: Same plane as the first one i uploaded. Took off fine, flight was perfectly normal....just when I was thinking "well, that's nice" I decided to land. As soon as I deployed the landing gear, tada! There  it was.....no landing for me today.

So...landing gear triggered it. I have no idea what's going on, really.

[ferram4]

@Vegetal: Oh boy, I can see this is gonna be fun.  It's a voxelization error of some kind...

Edit: From my testing, I can confirm a very minor voxelization issue, but nothing on the scale of what you've shown.  The plane you've linked flies straight in yaw with now sideways lift vectors at any point and does not tend to yaw in any direction whatsoever.

Would you mind linking the plane in the picture with an actual serious problem?

@karamazovnew: Then kindly go back to kOS authors and tell them, "FARControllableSurface has implemented ITorqueProvider and GetPotentialTorque() since FAR v0.15.6.0, and I am now on v0.15.6.5 with no issues there" and so implementation is now in their court since they have everything they need.

Also, by turning off the FAR module you lose all of the FAR physics for that wing part.  In addition, there is no way to keep stock control and FAR physics, which is why FAR overrides the stock physics.

Edited May 19, 2016 by ferram4

[Vegetal]

3 minutes ago, ferram4 said:

@Vegetal: Oh boy, I can see this is gonna be fun.  It's a voxelization error of some kind...

Glad I am being entertaining to you!!! 

Well, I'll be following this thread, if you need any help. Not that I can help you with coding or debugging, but you can ask about any info I managed to stumble upon. After coming back to stock physics when 1.1 launched, I was.....horrified. Didn't remember it being so bad. So, I kinda need your great mod dear sir, for my delight. Hope you squish this bug and have a glorious life.

Just to be sure, here's what lies in my Gamedata folder:

Atmosphere Autopilot
Community Resource Pack
FAR (reaaaally)
Kerbalism
Kopernicus
Mechjeb 2
Mechjeb 2 embedded by Dennis something
Modular Flight Integrator
Procedural Dynamics
RCS Build Aid
SCANSat
Sigma Dimensions
KAC
Ven Stock Revamp

Aaaand Module Manager 2.6.24

If you feel something might be weird or corrupted on any file here, I'll be listening. Could be a bad interaction with some of the above, who knows....anyway, good luck!


 

[Combatsmithen]

I have no idea what im doing! I need tutorials but i can't find any!

[ferram4]

@Vegetal: It looks like the main issue on that plane is the Procedural Dynamics pWings.  Whatever method that they use results in symmetry counterparts having triangles with the wrong "handedness" for FAR to voxelize properly (the vertexes are listed in the opposite order, so FAR thinks they're all facing the other direction).  B9 Pwings are a good substitute, I'll have to bring up the issue with Crzyrndm.

@Combatsmithen: I have no idea what you're asking about!  I need more specific questions about your problems but I can't find any!

[Vegetal]

@ferram4: I suspected that they had something to do with it, what I found strange is that even when I removed them and placed stock wings, the bug persisted. I was already experimenting today using only stock wings and so far it has been working...I think.

Is that even possible? pWings affecting a vessel even after you took them out? The plane I uploaded to you had only stock parts, and was producing the bug (as per picture I posted), so this is all a bit weird.

But well, those pWings seem to have not been updated in ages. Are the B9 ones ready for 1.1.2? Last time I checked, they weren't.

[Combatsmithen]

1 hour ago, ferram4 said:

@Vegetal: It looks like the main issue on that plane is the Procedural Dynamics pWings.  Whatever method that they use results in symmetry counterparts having triangles with the wrong "handedness" for FAR to voxelize properly (the vertexes are listed in the opposite order, so FAR thinks they're all facing the other direction).  B9 Pwings are a good substitute, I'll have to bring up the issue with Crzyrndm.

@Combatsmithen: I have no idea what you're asking about!  I need more specific questions about your problems but I can't find any!

 

@ferram4 I just want some basic tutorials on making a stable aircraft. Right now I can't even take off because I get this weird yawing motion as I go down the runway which causes me to lose control and flip. The gear is aligned and the aircraft is perfectly symmetrical. I am very very good with stock aerodynamics and I'm not new to planes in KSP. Getting some tutorials on what all those numbers mean in the sim window would be great, right now I just move wings and stuff around until all the numbers turn green, but I've never gotten a plane to fly due to that weird yawing motion I talked about earlier.

[Vegetal]

Just now, Combatsmithen said:

@ferram4 I just want some basic tutorials on making a stable aircraft. Right now I can't even take off because I get this weird yawing motion as I go down the runway which causes me to lose control and flip. The gear is aligned and the aircraft is perfectly symmetrical. I am very very good with stock aerodynamics and I'm not new to planes in KSP. Getting some tutorials on what all those numbers mean in the sim window would be great, right now I just move wings and stuff around until all the numbers turn green, but I've never gotten a plane to fly due to that weird yawing motion I talked about earlier.

The landing gear is quite troublesome. I bet that if you manage to take that plane off the ground, it will fly nicely.

[ferram4]

@Vegetal: As I said, I couldn't reproduce the bug with the stock plane.  Only a very minor error on one of the wings, but not sufficient to cause massive yawing or side lift.  So I don't know what's going on there.

Crzyrndm maintains the B9 pWings as well and there are releases later on in the thread; use those.

@Combatsmithen: The aerodynamics are different, but the principles are the same as stock.  Stop trying to make everything perfect for your first plane, just build it as you would as if it's stock using the CoM and CoL.  The stability derivatives are better for tuning and improving functional designs than designing something ground up before even a single test.  Only problem I can think you'd be having (likely) is that you need to cut mass and add more wing area.  That's the most common error, since stock lets you get away with cows with butterfly wings (why I don't know).

As for landing gear, I can't help you there.  FAR doesn't touch the landing gear behavior.  Same rules as for building landing gear with stock aerodynamics.

Once you can fly, Wanderfound has some tutorials, one of the Scott Manley videos I linked in the beginning explains the Stability Derivatives alright, and @tetryds is supposed to have a FAR tutorial at some point. >_>

[Combatsmithen]

1 hour ago, ferram4 said:

@Vegetal: As I said, I couldn't reproduce the bug with the stock plane.  Only a very minor error on one of the wings, but not sufficient to cause massive yawing or side lift.  So I don't know what's going on there.

Crzyrndm maintains the B9 pWings as well and there are releases later on in the thread; use those.

@Combatsmithen: The aerodynamics are different, but the principles are the same as stock.  Stop trying to make everything perfect for your first plane, just build it as you would as if it's stock using the CoM and CoL.  The stability derivatives are better for tuning and improving functional designs than designing something ground up before even a single test.  Only problem I can think you'd be having (likely) is that you need to cut mass and add more wing area.  That's the most common error, since stock lets you get away with cows with butterfly wings (why I don't know).

As for landing gear, I can't help you there.  FAR doesn't touch the landing gear behavior.  Same rules as for building landing gear with stock aerodynamics.

Once you can fly, Wanderfound has some tutorials, one of the Scott Manley videos I linked in the beginning explains the Stability Derivatives alright, and @tetryds is supposed to have a FAR tutorial at some point. >_>

 

that might be my problem, ill slap some bigger wings on tommorow. im off for tonight

[cantab]

I covered the basics of the first screen in the FAR analysis on one of my Twitch highlights, https://www.twitch.tv/cantab2718/v/41321741 It's a bit old, and the UI layout has changed a bit since, but the graphs still all work the same way. The most important thing: yellow line slopes down.

On another topic, for what it's worth my plane - same craft file I uploaded before - was pulling left slightly in Kindelberger despite being supposedly symmetrical. Nothing massive loss-of-control level, we're talking offset by the width of the dot on the navball and I just trim it out with the rudder, but I suppose it seems a little odd. I'll have to see if it flies the same in Knudsen.

[Umbra TuSlayer]

I'm finding v0.15.6.5  has a major bugs v0.15.6.4 didn't. Its effects are:

1. Landing Gear bounce even if stationary and no forces are applied.
2.  Not using Landing gear results in the craft being stuck in the ground, unable to move.

Had the same issue with the 1.1 pre-release... Can add log file if needed.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Umbra TuSlayer

[FluffySilverUnicorn]

FAR seems to badly break my game :/

The ModularFlightIntegrator folder somehow disables some of the UI buttons, like "Exit to Main Menu", "Launch Vessel", and clicking the VAB, SPH, and Tracking Station. When I take it out I can access everything, and it doesn't seem to be affected by the Ferram Aerospace folder.

 

KSP.log

[ferram4]

@Umbra TuSlayer: 1. I cannot reproduce any bounciness with landing gear that did not exist in the stock game.  My craft bounce slightly on load as physics start, but quickly damp out and remain stable.  This was tested with both the FAR Firehound and FAR SkyEye example craft.

2. I attempted to reproduce by taking the FAR SkyEye example craft, removing the landing gear and letting it go.  It successfully skidded down the runway up to ~70 m/s before exploding as I attempted to rotate it on the engines to take off.

I cannot reproduce your issues with FAR alone, and I suspect another mod is the cause.  Also, log files should always be included, as well as full reproduction steps and a list of all installed mods and their versions.

@FluffySilverUnicorn: There are many errors being thrown from your log that have absolutely nothing to do with either FAR or ModularFlightIntegrator.  I am able to access the VAB, SPH, TrackingStation through buttons and by clicking on the buildings, and I am also able to use all of the other buttons.  I suspect that your errors lie with another mod, since there are a lot of errors in there from other mods.

[Blasty McBlastblast]

@Umbra TuSlayer there is definitely something going funny with wheels, but I'm not sure that FAR is to blame.

I encountered the tap-dancing wheels yesterday, but mostly just thought it was funny as it made my craft look a little like boston dynamic's big dog!  It only seems to affect wheels that are rotated in pitch direction or attached to rotated parts (I was fooling about with pitch angle of a set of wings) After updating all mods today, and seeing your post I thought I would try again and behold: hover wheels!!!! 

 

this plane has wings angled +5deg with wheels under the wings angled at -5deg, other planes with squarely attached wheels seem to be working fine. I'll grab a clean install and see if I can recreate this outside of my career save

[Umbra TuSlayer]

@ferram4  It may not solely be an issue with FAR, but when I reverted from v0.15.6.5 to v0.15.6.4 the issue stopped (Only thing changed) Its like the ground height is set wrong.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyrsu8quzkrt8ys/KSP%20%28FAR_0_15_6_4_Kleinhans%29.log?dl=0 - 12mb ish using 91+ mods (ya sorry...)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8n9xcldo3i9dfw4/KSP%20%28FAR_0_15_6_5_Knudsen%29.log?dl=0

So I reinstalled FAR_0_15_6_5_Knudsen but the bouncing wasn't present... The ship stuck on launch issue was still present, have retracted the Landing strut to show ship floating off ground.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/447358656225497616/80B4306135CA8ADBDE824C66071A17D37C5B28AF/

Edited May 20, 2016 by Umbra TuSlayer
extra info, typo

[ferram4]

@Umbra TuSlayer: Well, then if it's a ground height issue it certainly isn't FAR.  FAR has no control of which height things spawn at in game.  And if it's a landing gear issue, it certainly isn't FAR, because FAR has no control over how the stock landing gear behave.  At all.  And I can't even reproduce the issue.

To the best of my knowledge, based on my testing, there is no cause or source of this bug in FAR.  Go complain to the people that thought these landing gear were release quality.

[Blasty McBlastblast]

An update on the hover-wheels situation: it's not the wheels! (hehe wheely-good news for a change!) the culprit seems to be an interaction between TweakScale and FAR. 

I haven't been able to unleash the dramatic levitation seen before, however some weirdness is happening to pitch/yaw/roll when using a resized elevon, and I suspect this is leading to the floating (as Egg Shen says: "that's how it always begins, very small.")

To recreate I made a fresh install, add mods, then start a new game, make a simple craft with a tweaked elevon, launch, weirdness ensues 

• KSP: 1.1.2 (Win64) - Unity: 5.2.4f1 - OS: Windows 10  (10.0.0) 64bit
• Ferram Aerospace Research - 0.15.6.5
• ModularFlightIntegrator - 1.1.4
• TweakScale - 2.2.12
• ModuleManager - 2.6.25

 

[ferram4]

You know what?  I reproduced it.  I have no idea what's going wrong, and at this point I don't care.  I'll decide tomorrow if I'll even bother fixing this or if I'll just strip out all support for Tweakscale 'cause I'm tired of fighting this broken thing.  The last bunch of releases have all involved fixes to handle this one mod and the bugs resulting from attempted fixes to handle this one mod.

[Blasty McBlastblast]

haha that's the best response ever, and I heartily approve! 

thanks for the great mods, and all the (ongoing, and going, and going) support 

[ferram4]

Never mind, I'm apparently incredibly, incredibly stupid.  I think I managed to fix it; please grab the dev dll from the github repo and try it.  I am unwilling to rush this out now because I expect some other bug to show up.  Like happened here.

Also, PSA for any modders reading: never use part.prefabMass for anything that even has a risk of running before Part.Start() at any time, because if it does run then, part.prefabMass will be 0.  Instead, use part.partInfo.partPrefab.mass, and always assume anything involving interacting with other mods will run before Part.Start() for safety purposes.

ARGGH.

[loleo]

Hello

I installed FAR on my 64bit steam ksp with several mods and have so far it has always showed 0 for mach number, and 90% of the values in flight data, the only values it shows is the atmosphere density, the attitude values, AoA, Sideslip, TSFC and 'Spec. Excess Pwr', and the dynamic pressure. Also, in the editor the tools don't seem to function at all. All the charts are empty (The axes are there but no numbers). 

Strangely, drag only seems to be applied to vessels with kerbals in them. When de-orbiting some junk I noticed it never slowed down, and would have hit the ground at 2800ms^-1 if it didn't aggressively burn up. However, when the vessel has kerbals in it, I believe that some aerodynamics are in play as my shuttle is able to fly.

I read in an earlier post were someone had a slightly similar problem in this thread about renaming the physics file in the ksp folder, so I did that. I also renamed the settings config file, thinking it was worth a shot. After getting steam to retrieve new files I started up KSP and started a new save game and found the same issue as before.

I tried on both the 32 and 64 bit launchers and the problem always persists.

List of mods in gamedata:

JSI
KIS
KAS
Kerbal Joint Reinforcement
000_Toolbar 
Ksp-Advanced-Flybywire
MagicSmokeIndustries (Robot stuff)
Modular Flight Integrator
Real Scale Boosters
And some module manager dll's and etc.

 

[Blasty McBlastblast]

@ferram4 works like clockwork  

[Combatsmithen]

@ferram4 This is the problem im having, everything is symmetrical so i don't know what it is