[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[ferram4]

I'm looking into that, I'll probably have something for tomorrow. It's not exactly a straightforward thing.

[Taverius]

Awesome.

Another question, defining the measurements for control surfaces is slightly confusing me. if b_2 is the base of the aileron, and mac is the extension from the edge of the wing, then is the taper ratio the usable to better define the shape of, for example, the stock aileron, or should I leave taper at 1 and use the average for b_2?

Also, wherefore ability to properly define things like the Delta-deluxe?

[Assassin_55]

I like this mod... Makes my shuttle my controllable and easy for flight (Sometimes). *THUMBS UP*

[ferram4]

@Taverius: Use the average value for b_2 and keep Taper Ratio at 1. I also still need to account for the delta-deluxe properly.

[Laphtiya]

Hi all,

Just want to say thanks for the advice it worked out fantastically even better than I had hoped, I've managed to make a more streamlined rocket with the more power performance with less parts than before. It's not perfect and could use some tweeking to make it more efficient (I've also learned not to go max power on take off). Let me know what you think, no doubt it probably still needs a lot of work but hey its a start

Mun Rocket

I think this could also take you to Mimnus easily but I've yet to try it. I'll see if I can upload some pictures in the morning.

Once again thanks and great mod

[NonWonderDog]

A bit of a bug report here. [DISREGARD -- FIXED IN 0.9.3]

Behold, the Kappa II 7320-9.5:

And here is is without the fairing -- I've used a few fuel tanks as payload:

Clearly, there's something wrong here. I'm sure the weight distribution is nothing like the real rocket (it's six meters shorter, after all), but that isn't the issue -- it's stable without the fairing, but adding the fairing makes it horrifically unstable. I've tested this in flight, too. With the fairing it flips pretty early in flight and there's not much I can do about it. Without the fairing it's one of the most stable rockets I've flown -- much more stable than that CoL marker would suggest.

After taking this screenshot I added "fairing" to the name of the 2.5 m interstage from KW, but it didn't actually help. It shielded the second stage engine and fuel tanks, but that didn't make much of a difference.

Using the 2.5 m KW fairing pieces with my fairing base had much the same effect, so I'm not sure it's just the slightly increased diameter of the fairing. The only slightly weird thing I've done is to make a copy of the KW fairing base, remove the decoupler effect, remove the normal attachment points, and add attachment points for Fairing Factory fairings. Is there anything special about the way FAR treats fairing bases that I should know?

Also, the CoL seems to move around a lot in the VAB. The second picture was taken after launching the rocket and reloading it in the VAB. If I just take the fairing off without doing that, the CoL is much further down the rocket.

EDIT: Ah, sorry, this was in 0.9.2. I'll update to 0.9.3 and see if it changes anything.

EDIT2: Totally fixed in 0.9.3. Without the fairing the CoL is right on top of the CoM. With the fairing it's far behind it. I guess you were ahead of me there.

There's only one remaining issue: removing the fairing doesn't update the CoL marker. I had to launch->end flight before it updated. The "update CoL" button on the graph doesn't seem to do anything. Undo still breaks the button that hides the graph, too.

EDIT3: Actually, it went too far in 0.9.3 -- fairings contribute no drag whatsoever!

Edited May 15, 2013 by NonWonderDog

[KAO]

I've been having something of a problem ever since I installed FAR; whenever I do CTRL + Z (undo), it does the undo function several times. So instead of having the part I just put down deleted, I am forced to return to the craft that I was working on 30 seconds in the past.

[ferram4]

@NonWonderDog: That's because I increased the body lift to proper levels for the latest update.

@KAO: I'm aware of this bug and I think it's related to what has to be done to keep the FAR editor GUI working properly. I'm still trying to find the exact cause though.

[Laphtiya]

Dumb question but if I am updating the mod I simply have to install over the files I have right? I wont need to reinstall the whole game again will I?

Just checking before I update

[ferram4]

You won't need to reinstall the whole game.

[NonWonderDog]

So I've noticed that my fairings from fairing factory have essentially zero drag in atmosphere after being ejected from my rocket. I followed one as it hit the ground at well over a kilometer per second, accelerating the whole way. If that's as far as it goes it's not a big deal, as it would only really affect the way they separate. What I can't tell is if they're behaving properly when still on my rocket.

The static analysis graphs also now fail to run (as of 0.9.3) if any fairing or cargo bay is present on a craft.

[Ultraturbopanda]

I recently installed FAR as I was getting fed up with the unrealistic flight model, and had a good bit of fun with smaller planes, but now when I try to build something a bit bigger, I run into problems.

As you can see, although my plane is entirely symmetrical, my COL is off by a small amount. I have rebuilt this plane several times over, with the COL being off as far as one of the wingtips. As far as I can tell, FAR is having trouble detecting what is part of the same wing, and what is a new wing.

Are there any fixes, or am I doomed to uninstalling this great mod? (this is kind of gamebreaking)

Edited May 15, 2013 by Ultraturbopanda

[ferram4]

Have you tried flying with the plane? It is possible that it's simply a visual bug (as it certainly was prior to the most recent update). More useful would be if you could recreate putting the CoL off on one of the wingtips and post a video of how you did it; that would allow me to easily recreate the bug and fix it.

Another question is whether the plane actually is exactly symmetrical; minor amounts of asymmetry can result in the CoL being offset, and those minor symmetry failures can be cause by the game screwing up.

[NonWonderDog]

We've definitely had a bit of a regression as far as fairing are concerned. They seemed to be generating more drag than what they were shielding before, but now I can do this:

It reached a terminal velocity of around 2.5 km/s. The second stage was much lighter and had much less thrust, but since it only had a short fuel tank and an engine outside of the fairing it went even faster. After separating the fairing the payload immediately pancaked and exploded due to the sudden drag forces, but the fairing went on to do this:

It accelerated all the way to splashdown. Version 0.9.3 seems to have removed all drag from fairings.

[ferram4]

Try that again, but bring up the debug log and see if any NullReferenceExceptions are appearing; it's possible that something is simply breaking before a drag force is applied to the fairing.

Also, the main problem with your rocket going so fast in the lower atmosphere isn't due to drag forces being too low; it's due to the fact that KSP parts are too strong. That rocket should be torn apart by aerodynamic forces, but it takes much abuse than it should because otherwise it would be too flexible, and there's really nothing I can do to fix that. There's also the fact that KW Rocketry doesn't have the proper AttachNode sizes on its parts, making the drag forces lower than they should be, which would be helping to reduce the drag on the engine for this rocket.

[NonWonderDog]

In 0.9.2 it disintegrates at more than 3 degrees angle of attack, though, which seems fine enough to me. The major problem wasn't so much going Mach 8, since I expect there'll always be a way to break it like that. The bigger problem was the way the 8 ton upper stage with 200 kN thrust could push itself faster against the wind than the ~40 ton half-empty core booster with 1300 kN thrust when they both had the same cross-section. That would mean the skin friction is greater than the pressure drag, which definitely shouldn't be the case at Mach 8.

Running the static analysis with a fairing installed gives me "[Exception]: NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object." Flying a rocket with a fairing floods the log with that message. With all the fairing bits removed I don't get those messages.

[Nobody_1707]

Also, I find it physically impossible to do my gravity turn below ~30km without either loosing control of my rocket and/or accelerating to much in the lower atmosphere and exploding from the friction heat(I'm using Deadly Reentry). I have no idea if this is problem with my rocket, Deadly Reentry, FAR, or some combination of the above.

I can provide the craft file if you need it.

[Ultraturbopanda]

Thanks for replying.

I have build almost 20 planes since I got the mod, and all of the ones with more than about 5 pieces fabricated into a wing had an offset COL. I was experimenting and found that it is completely random. It can be going well for the first 3 pieces, but at the fourth the COL kicks right about a meter, and upon removing the fourth piece, it stays about 3/4 of a meter to the right.

Of course, when I try to replicate issues I fail horribly. It seems when moving about large chunks of wing, some pieces decide to become horribly off balance and can only be fixed by deleting and replacing the part.

I would make a video of the process, but I don't have the money for fraps. All I did to cause this was place wings down in symmetry mode. The COL changes are definitely physical, as once I get into the high atmosphere my plane acts like I lost half a wing. As of now I have only tested large craft with the B9 pack wings.

Are there any mods that are known to conflict with FAR? I have at least 10 plugins right now.

[ferram4]

@NonWonderDog: Ah, then something is breaking in the payload fairing code; I'll look into that. The reason that skin friction drag appears to be so much larger than pressure drag is because detecting which part of the payload fairing is the nose cap can be a little bit of a pain to do, so things can go wrong there.

@Nobody_1707: Both are probably due to poor rocket design. Control loss is due to the rocket being unstable, which can be fixed by putting fins at the bottom. Exploding due to overheating is probably due to overspeeding, try reducing your TWR and see if that helps. If neither of those work, then blame Deadly Reentry.

@Ultraturbopanda: Post a link to the plane so I can check it out. I myself haven't seen this problem occur, so having an example would be very nice to start with. There aren't any known hard conflicts between FAR and other plugins.

[rpayne88]

I recently launched a shuttle. It made it into orbit just fine, but when I attempted to reenter, the shuttle went into an uncontrollable roll. If I attempt to roll left to counteract a right roll, the shuttle rolls faster to the right. Rolling right in this situation stops the roll for about a second before it starts again. I was flying with my whiskey mark about 5-10 degrees above my vector. As I crossed 50Km, the thing started to drop until it was 5-10 degrees below my vector and started rolling.

C:\Users\rpayne88\Downloads\ksp-win-0-19-1\KSP_win\Screenshots\screenshot36a.png

Its a bit hard to see, but I have the avionics suite sitting on a strut connector, not the nosecone adapter. Also, I have vanguard eject mod on the left side. Finally, there is a short range remote tech dish on the top and bottom. The mod I used were B9, remote tech, and timberdyne shuttle pack. Obviously, I had the solar wings retracted.

Edited May 15, 2013 by rpayne88

[Netris]

C:\Users\rpayne88\Downloads\ksp-win-0-19-1\KSP_win\Screenshots\screenshot36a.png

You understand you have to upload screenshots for us to be able to see them, don't you ? We cannot see stuff directly from your computer.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Netris

[rpayne88]

I clicked on insert image and typed in the file location, so how would I do that?

[Netris]

We can't access your own computer...you have to upload it on an host like imgur.

[rpayne88]

I didn't get any during reentry, but here are two while its in orbit

<a href="http://imgur.com/VTTWTfP"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/VTTWTfP.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

<a href="http://imgur.com/eiFACq2"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/eiFACq2.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

[rpayne88]

Use these

http://imgur.com/HKEeR21

http://imgur.com/ac5M9dd