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[1.11.x] SystemHeat - a replacement for the CoreHeat system (March 26th)


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36 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

That's too bad, I actually liked the fact that going interplanetary with Nerv was no longer the stock easy mode :)

It's still a SH reactor, but hopefully will provide a simpler progression - you would use it to figure out how to use a reactor that cools down/warms up (but doesn't need extra radiators) then the various KA engines come in with more. 

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11 hours ago, Geryz said:

 

Weirdly enough the creator doesnt state which versions it's compatible with but I got the newest release which was 14 days ago and the newest version of KSP so that should be fine? Not sure though
I'm gonna try without KSH and see if that's the cause of the problem
Edit: It is. Guess I'll try to get support from the maker of KSH then or try to play without it for now

Hi, I'm an author of KerbalismSystemHeat.
Will try to fix this HeatControl radiators issue and update mod for last version of SystemHeat (this weekend maybe?).

If you run into a problems with KSH, feel free to PM me on forum or open issues on github.
Mod is experimental, as SystemHeat itself is under active development, so some issues will surely be present.

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11 hours ago, Judicator81 said:

Hi, I'm an author of KerbalismSystemHeat.
Will try to fix this HeatControl radiators issue and update mod for last version of SystemHeat (this weekend maybe?).

If you run into a problems with KSH, feel free to PM me on forum or open issues on github.
Mod is experimental, as SystemHeat itself is under active development, so some issues will surely be present.

Yep - no worries, just wanted to understand who might be using it. I've been playing pretty fast and loose with the API so if there are real users then I will try to be a bit more careful!

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11 hours ago, Nertea said:

Yep - no worries, just wanted to understand who might be using it. I've been playing pretty fast and loose with the API so if there are real users then I will try to be a bit more careful!

By the way, Nertea, do you still adhere to the principle "leave Kerbalism support for Kerbalism folks"?

The reason for I ask is, Kerbalism development is effectively on hiatus right now (both 3.* and 4.* branches), so no "built-in" SystemHeat (or FFT) support is expected in foreseeable future.
That's actually a reason for "middleman" mod like KerbalismSystemHeat to exist.

However, if you don't mind adding "native" Kerbalism support to SystemHeat (and hopefully FFT), I'm glad to help as much as I can.

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:19 PM, Nertea said:

No not really, the bug Wyzard found is affecting things.

Heat needs at full throttle. Use the thrust slider to change that.

You still need radiators for the passive power generation. However this is affected by the bug (if you turn off the reactor radiators don't work properly). 

Turns off the reactor when you go into time warp, turns it back on automatically after.

Lots of things changed in 0.4.0.

I mean fundamentally what changed from NFE was the following items:

  • Some automation was introduced to reactors overall, there was none before.
  • Reactor power actually adjusts slowly instead of instantly, this was intended but I never got it to work correctly without the stock thermal system murdering everyone and their children.

It's obviously taking some work to dial in the correct level of automation here.  Currently (assuming the bug gets fixed):

  • Engine reactors run at power levels of (usually) 5-100%, with power uprates of 10%/s and down rates of 20%/s
  • Turning reactors on (when no engine is on) will increase their throttle to minimum (5% ). This is 100 kW for the LV-N. They will melt down eventually at this level without radiators or propellant flow.
  • If the reactor can generate power, the minimum provides you with maximum power generation. I think the minimum is offhand 2% for these reactors.
  • When you increase engine throttle, the reactor will throttle up automatically to match the engine throttle, at 10%/s so will take ~10s to get to full power
  • When you decrease engine throttle, the reactor will throttle down automatically to match the engine throttle, down to the minimum value at 20%/s so will take ~5s to get to minimum power. 
  • You need to do something in that 5s or the reactor will melt down. Currently, the lower power reactors should survive a hard cooldown (e.g, the temperature increase in 5s of zero cooling will be below the meltdown threshold) without doing anything special. Higher power reactors will need a slower cooldown, using extra radiators or by slowly decreasing the engine throttle. 
  • Highest power reactors (gas core stuff) will need radiators to run at all.

What is missing here?

does the ISP of the engine depend at all on the reactor power? am I 'wasting' propellant while throttling up and down?

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3 hours ago, toric5 said:

does the ISP of the engine depend at all on the reactor power? am I 'wasting' propellant while throttling up and down?

If you use automatic reactor control, yes. At 50% reactor power you get around 50% ISP. I spam coolant tanks on my engine so I can keep a high reactor power while fine tuning my maneuver.

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I'm not sure how much of this is stock behavior vs. SystemHeat code, but I've noticed that having the SystemHeat heat exchanger on a craft causes the craft's EC to be reduced during timewarp.  It's weird, though: not like a normal EC drain.  Instead, EC goes down to a particular number and then stays there, and the number is lower at higher timewarp levels.

Example craft to reproduce: stock 2.5m probe core and 2.5m battery, H250-64 cryo tank in LH2/Ox mode, four XR-500 radiators, and Garnet reactor.  With just those parts, there's no weird behavior, but add a heat exchanger, go to the launchpad, and timewarp up to 10000x or 100000x and look at what happens with the EC level.

It doesn't seem to make a difference which direction the exchanger is configured for, but increasing its temperature adjustment reduces the EC limit for a given timewarp level.  For example, with the temperature adjustment set to 300, the craft runs out of EC at max timewarp (which is how I noticed it on an actual spacecraft).  I'm guessing this is related to the exchanger's own power usage, but it doesn't happen with the cryo tank (which also uses EC).  I have DynamicBatteryStorage installed, though I don't know whether that's involved.

Also: while building that test craft in the VAB, before the reactor and exchanger are attached, take a look at the PAW for the radiators.  "System Flux" flickers rapidly between 0 and -1, and "System Temperature" flickers rapidly between "3 / 3" and "3 / NaN", with the NaN appearing when the flux is 0.  (The numbers are stable when the reactor and/or heat exchanger are attached.)

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58 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

I'm not sure how much of this is stock behavior vs. SystemHeat code, but I've noticed that having the SystemHeat heat exchanger on a craft causes the craft's EC to be reduced during timewarp.  It's weird, though: not like a normal EC drain.  Instead, EC goes down to a particular number and then stays there, and the number is lower at higher timewarp levels.

I believe that Dynamic Battery Storage is creating this behavior. I *think* it’s intended

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19 hours ago, Wyzard said:

I'm not sure how much of this is stock behavior vs. SystemHeat code, but I've noticed that having the SystemHeat heat exchanger on a craft causes the craft's EC to be reduced during timewarp.  It's weird, though: not like a normal EC drain.  Instead, EC goes down to a particular number and then stays there, and the number is lower at higher timewarp levels.

Example craft to reproduce: stock 2.5m probe core and 2.5m battery, H250-64 cryo tank in LH2/Ox mode, four XR-500 radiators, and Garnet reactor.  With just those parts, there's no weird behavior, but add a heat exchanger, go to the launchpad, and timewarp up to 10000x or 100000x and look at what happens with the EC level.

It doesn't seem to make a difference which direction the exchanger is configured for, but increasing its temperature adjustment reduces the EC limit for a given timewarp level.  For example, with the temperature adjustment set to 300, the craft runs out of EC at max timewarp (which is how I noticed it on an actual spacecraft).  I'm guessing this is related to the exchanger's own power usage, but it doesn't happen with the cryo tank (which also uses EC).  I have DynamicBatteryStorage installed, though I don't know whether that's involved.

That's just stock.  Here's the 'reason' from the DBS OP:

Quote

his mod dynamically adjusts Electric Charge storage to combat the game's awful handling of resource generation/draw mechanics at high timewarp.

Let's consider a ship that has a generator that makes 1000 EC/s, and has batteries totalling 2000 EC of storage. A power consumer on the ship operates with a draw of 10 Ec/s. In any game physics frame at 1x time warp, the following occurs:

  1. The generator generates 1000 EC * the duration of the physics frame (0.02) * the timewarp increment (1x) and adds it to the storage, which is full, leaving a total stored energy value of 2000 EC.
  2. The power consumer uses 10 EC * the duration of the physics frame (0.02) * the timewarp increment (1x) which nets 0.2 EC and subtracts it from the storage. We now have 1999.8 EC.
  3. The cycle begins again.

When timewarp increases to a high value, the cycle stays the same, but there are consequences

  1. The generator generates 1000 EC * the duration of the physics frame (0.02) * the timewarp increment (100 000x) and adds it to the storage, which is full, leaving a total stored energy value of 2000 EC.
  2. The power consumer uses 10 EC * the duration of the physics frame (0.02) * the timewarp increment (100 000x) which nets 20,000 EC and subtracts it from the storage.
  3. There is apparently not enough power, even though the power generation rate far exceeds the consumption rate, so there will be negative consequences from the consumer thinking it is out of power

The mod functions by choosing a electricity-containing part as the 'buffer', and then expanding or contracting its storage temporarily when high timewarp factors are engaged. The size of the buffer is calculated by determining the total amount of electrical draw that all parts contribute in a single physics frame, and determining the total electrical production. If there is truly enough production to meet demand, the storage will be temporarily expanded so no timewarp related effects occur.

The problem might be that I have probably not set up the exchanger to talk to DBS so it doesn't know it's using power, and therefore doesn't properly adjust the ship's battery storage. 

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I got this error when I was in VAB.

[EXC 22:31:20.970] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	SystemHeat.SystemHeatEditor.FixedUpdate () (at <d1c22963482e4eb3bf8a39c8c5c5882f>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)

Log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9u6tfwou98njm1/KSP.log?dl=0

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Nuclear fuel transfer only works for me in sandbox now. Any idea why??  

Edit. It was the resource obeys crossfeed rules in settings. 

Edited by dave1904
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Hi @Nertea, I realised that I should've updated my addons since I last had them. Things seem a bit different.

I'll get my biggest problem out of the way first and say that reactors have a "waste heat" now, and when I'm trying to send a craft with an MX-0 "Kerbopower" reactor into orbit, this waste heat is quietly destroying the core before it even reaches the vacuum of space. At the launchpad, the reactor seems to start at 150kW of waste heat, and gradually goes down as it goes into the core's temperature, eventually causing a meltdown. All this happens without the reactor ever running. It did not act this way some months ago, and surely this isn't intentional?

Also, there's a few oddities and/or problems with the current System Heat UI: 

  • The heat rejection should be (from my own understanding) at -175 kW with an XR-175 radiator. However, it is declared at -150 kW anywhere in the vacuum of space. For the sake of other examples, this is -154 at Kerbin's sea level, -215 at Eve's,  -281 at Jool's, etc. I believe the "correct" (with a grain of salt) rejection to be -175 from the line "Radiates -175 kW at 1000 K," but I could be misinterpreting.
  • Despite the heat rejection of an XR-175 radiator (-150 kW) being equal to the heat generation of an MX-0 fission reactor (+150 kW), there seems to be a temperature warning on both the reactor and the radiator.
  • When the heat rejection is made to be in excess of the generation, (i.e., two XR-175s with one MX-0 ) both radiators have temperature warnings.
  • Scrolling through different planets for vessel simulations is too slow via the scroll wheel.  Dragging the scrollbar is an easy workaround, but would be nice to have functional scrolling.

Besides these hiccups, I love the NF collection so far. I have to ask though: what's the purpose of cargo containers in stock/near future's gameplay beyond the "Ore" resource? There's resources like substrate, water, lead, but none of these have any relationships with any of NF's parts except for Ore. Could it be that you didn't even make create this cargo container mod and CKAN just placed it in without me knowing what it is?

Edited by intelliCom
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12 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Besides these hiccups, I love the NF collection so far. I have to ask though: what's the purpose of cargo containers in stock/near future's gameplay beyond the "Ore" resource? There's resources like substrate, water, lead, but none of these have any relationships with any of NF's parts except for Ore. Could it be that you didn't even make create this cargo container mod and CKAN just placed it in without me knowing what it is?

If you use some other mods the mod should detect this and supply container options for resources relevant to those mods.

12 hours ago, intelliCom said:

I'll get my biggest problem out of the way first and say that reactors have a "waste heat" now, and when I'm trying to send a craft with an MX-0 "Kerbopower" reactor into orbit, this waste heat is quietly destroying the core before it even reaches the vacuum of space. At the launchpad, the reactor seems to start at 150kW of waste heat, and gradually goes down as it goes into the core's temperature, eventually causing a meltdown. All this happens without the reactor ever running. It did not act this way some months ago, and surely this isn't intentional?

 

Are you sure you have the latest version? I tested this to check and there seems to be no problem here, took a command pod with a reactor stuck to it, launched to pad, no heat?

12 hours ago, intelliCom said:
  • The heat rejection should be (from my own understanding) at -175 kW with an XR-175 radiator. However, it is declared at -150 kW anywhere in the vacuum of space. For the sake of other examples, this is -154 at Kerbin's sea level, -215 at Eve's,  -281 at Jool's, etc. I believe the "correct" (with a grain of salt) rejection to be -175 from the line "Radiates -175 kW at 1000 K," but I could be misinterpreting.

Key piece of information is 'at 1000K. Do you have a source that can 'make' >= 1000K? Most of the NFE reactors are around 800K which reduces the effectiveness of the radiators. 

 

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3 hours ago, Nertea said:

If you use some other mods the mod should detect this and supply container options for resources relevant to those mods.

Ok, so it's definitely community resources going on here. Basically all the other resources are likely not going to do anything with stock or NF?

3 hours ago, Nertea said:

Are you sure you have the latest version? I tested this to check and there seems to be no problem here, took a command pod with a reactor stuck to it, launched to pad, no heat?

I guess it's probably CKAN oddities. (I know it's not good for me to still be using it, but I've tried manual installation. I suck at it. And with so many mods to think about and update, CKAN does wonders for this.)

Would you happen to know anything about re-installing mods via CKAN, or am I on my own here?

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With stock, no, you just need Ore. With Nertea's other mods, at least LH2 will be used. FFT also adds a few more resources. The other resource options become useful when you start using mods like MKS, USI-LS, OSE Workshop, Ground Construction, Extraplanetary Launchpads, TAC-LS, Snacks, WBI, KSPI-E, Kerbalism, etc.

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22 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

With stock, no, you just need Ore. With Nertea's other mods, at least LH2 will be used. FFT also adds a few more resources. The other resource options become useful when you start using mods like MKS, USI-LS, OSE Workshop, Ground Construction, Extraplanetary Launchpads, TAC-LS, Snacks, WBI, KSPI-E, Kerbalism, etc.

I don't like straying too far away from what makes KSP feel like KSP. NF fits almost perfectly into stock gameplay for me. Extraplanetary Launchpads sounds nice though, how compatable is it with NF?

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14 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Ok, so it's definitely community resources going on here. Basically all the other resources are likely not going to do anything with stock or NF?

18 hours ago, Nertea said:

Probably not. The mod tries (using dependencies) to only add resources that a mod you're using uses. That might not be completely accurate as I don't keep up with it that much. 

14 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Would you happen to know anything about re-installing mods via CKAN, or am I on my own here?

Sorry I'm not conversant with that. 

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15 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Would you happen to know anything about re-installing mods via CKAN, or am I on my own here?

CKAN thread. 

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7 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

CKAN thread. 

Sorry, just thought it might be more efficient to ask here, I'll move my discussion there.

7 hours ago, Nertea said:

Probably not. The mod tries (using dependencies) to only add resources that a mod you're using uses. That might not be completely accurate as I don't keep up with it that much. 

I have access to all of them with a logistics module/cargo container. If this isn't intended, it's probably also a CKAN error. Also, out of curiosity, which NF mod brings the cargo containers into KSP?

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2021 at 10:08 AM, Nertea said:

Are you sure you have the latest version? I tested this to check and there seems to be no problem here, took a command pod with a reactor stuck to it, launched to pad, no heat?

Just to prove that it's happening, this is what the UI tells me from the launchpad a few seconds after loading in: https://imgur.com/a/cMIlBJ0

Which mods would be relevant? Just guessing them here, CKAN has installed:

  • System Heat 0.4.1 (Same goes for the nuclear reactor configuration)
  • Near Future Electrical 1.2.2 (Same goes for "Near Future Electrical Core")

Strangely enough, your official page lists System Heat's latest as 0.4.0, with Near Future Electrical listed at 1.2.1 latest. I guess it's just not updated, and I am in fact on the latest versions for both. Is there a way I could get some sort of log to you,  or is this purely CKAN's problem?

Edited by intelliCom
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1 hour ago, intelliCom said:

Just to prove that it's happening, this is what the UI tells me from the launchpad a few seconds after loading in: https://imgur.com/a/cMIlBJ0

Which mods would be relevant? Just guessing them here, CKAN has installed:

  • System Heat 0.4.1 (Same goes for the nuclear reactor configuration)
  • Near Future Electrical 1.2.2 (Same goes for "Near Future Electrical Core")

Strangely enough, your official page lists System Heat's latest as 0.4.0, with Near Future Electrical listed at 1.2.1 latest. I guess it's just not updated, and I am in fact on the latest versions for both. Is there a way I could get some sort of log to you,  or is this purely CKAN's problem?

Start a new ship. Place 1 mk1 lander can, 1x 0.625m reactor and enough radiators to run it (doesn't really matter what). Launch to launchpad and observe. If there are any issues, provide:

  • Log
  • ModuleManager Cache
  • Screenshot of gamedata/mod list. 

 

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