Jump to content

Recommended Posts

At big companies, it's more like this:
1d7728b03ed50138ec97005056a9545d

Yeah, reputation matters if you're trying to attract and retain good people. Evidently, most big companies are not. This is a strip for March 17, if you look it up on dilbert.com, in the comments there's a good number of personal stories of how this goes down in real companies. Quitting sometimes works, but in some industries (games included), it can be very risky, especially if the companies can afford to be picky in that particular job market.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1) I personally work as a salaried employee (not in the gaming industry). I never earn overtime. When we have a crunch, we crunch. When there is a lull, I don't work a full 40hr week. For a salaried employee, you do the work needed to get the job done- and I am fine with that, as long as on average I work about as much as I signed up for, and I get paid a fair salary.

Point 1 is far too cut and dry for me. If the "crunch" is a continuous 3 months of 60+ hour work weeks, that is too much. If its 3 weeks of 50hrs instead of 40, and its a fixed salary, and some times before it was more like a 35 hr week, thats fine.

I won't buy it if I have evidence of what I consider unreasonable or exploitive behavior.

2-5) aren't really ethical, but reflect the quality and value of the product. I will make the determination of if it is worth it when it comes out.

Although the part in 4 about claiming ownership of usermade content would be a step too far, for sure

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to say but I think you are beating in a dead horse.

We "the community" are not strong enough to cause a dent in the sales of KSP2.

Also I do not care what the hell they are doing internally since we do not have all the info. For what it concerns me, Star Theory wanted more money and Take Two just got p****d at them....or not. The fact is, we do not know.

Unless a representative of both companies came into these forums and explain what is going on (dream on) ethics or lack of it, that will not stop me for buying the game. 

When KSP 1 was available, I looked at the game and thought it was not worth my time. I got a copy from a friend of mine at V.025 and discovered the game and the modding community. Suffice to say, that was enough for me to buy the game at very early stage and support Squad.

If KSP2 comes out "dumbed" down for 5 year old kids with consoles to play, then probably I will not buy the game. If KSP 2 stays faithful to the original in terms of gameplay and mod support, I could not care less about the ethics that were employed on the developers.

If those ethics were/are bad, it is those people that should go into a court of law and solve the issue.

Also, even if every member in this forum did not buy the game, thousands of people would that do not even care about the community or mods. Let's also not forget that KSP has a big follow outside the gaming community as a tool of education, it is not by chance the game even is mentioned and used at NASA and in schools for purposes of education. 

I am with you in your anger and frustration because of recent news, but, like I mentioned, we do not know the full history.

Also about DLC's, no video gaming company in the world does not contemplate DLC's. Even Squad put out DLC's. 

I am all favor of DLC's when to support the devs, not to feed greedy companies. If that is the case, then I would not probably by the game from Take 2, and probably would get the game by "other means".

Also, you are fighting a lost battle against Take 2, since this is a 1.5 billion dollar company with subsidiary's like 2K, Rockstar and Private Division. I do not see poeple stop buying GTA5 because of low ethics. I do not see people stop buying Star Games from EA because of ethics. The world is complicated enough and we human race, rarely come together for a common goal.

I would be more worried if Take 2 cut my ability to buy food and drink, but since they cannot do that, I will judge the game when it comes out and decide if I will give my money to them or not.

EA is way worse, and the last game I bought from EA was Command & Conquer Tiberium Wars. Gamers have more reason to hate EA then any other company.

Still, you have my "moral" support and this is not a critic to you or anyone else, this is just the way I think, you might agree with it or not, but that is what you must realize that different people have different opinions even if we do not agree with them. 

 

Edited by Kar
Link to post
Share on other sites

I just now found out about the Take Two poaching of Star Theory employees, and although it's true that many facts are unknown I fail to see how anything can completely justify going out on LinkedIn and employ a third of the development team leaving the company both short staffed and without work.

If you're not satisfied with their work, fire them, don't dismantle the company.

I signed the petition, simply because I was really looking forward to a well funded and modern take on KSP, and then I hear about such unethical management of the process. 

As much as I looked forward to trying KSP2, and seeing what it has to offer, I can do without it if this is how it's to be developed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Master39 said:

Has someone actually read this "open letter" or just the title and then opened the link to sign it?

 

Yes I've read the thing and yes I agree with most if not all of what the OP was trying to achieve.

Edited by James M
Link to post
Share on other sites

Effectively, "Others won't care about the ethics, so I won't."  And "Supporting ethical behaviour is someone else's responsibility."

Well, that's a good little attitude that will help grease the way in the race to the bottom.

 

2 hours ago, Noname115 said:

KSP2 will be ok.

That's our hope.  There are good signs.  There are very disturbing signs.  There is no guarantee.

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, James M said:

Yes I've read the thing and yes I agree with most if not all of what the OP was trying to achieve.

So you're going to boycott a otherwise fine game over a preorder bonus?

Can I have a clear answer?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Master39 said:

So you're going to boycott a otherwise fine game over a preorder bonus?

Can I have a clear answer?

And I answered it yesterday. If T2 tries to milk KSP2 for monetary gain through unreasonable means, then yes. Of course. Exclusive Preorder bonuses for things that SHOULD'VE been in the game to begin with is wrong. You don't take something away and then charge people to have it back. That's wrong. Charging money for non-cosmetics of any kind is also wrong. I don't want to see them charging me $5 to get 50,000 kerbucks so I can keep playing the game. You get my point. So quit asking stupid questions. If they charge money for a hat to put on my Kermans' head, great! No problems. There is however an undrawn but clearly evident line here that we're trying to keep the multi-billion dollar mega corporation that is Take-Two from stepping over. Either you can support that or you can't. 

Does that answer your question?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, James M said:

If they charge money for a hat to put on my Kermans' head, great! No problems.

This is what you say, but this:

On 6/3/2020 at 8:13 PM, mattihase said:

2) KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 MUST NOT FEATURE EXCLUSIVE PRE-ORDER CONTENT, DAY-ONE DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT (DLC) OR PAY-LOCKED CONTENT (PLC), NOR MAY IT CONTAIN A PURCHASABLE IN-GAME CURRENCY OR IN-APP PURCHASES IN ANY OTHER FORM, COSMETIC OR PAY-TO-WIN MICROTRANSACTIONS, OR LOOTBOXES ("SURPRISE MECHANICS").

is what you've signed.

You're not agreeing with the absolutes you signed for, that was my point.

5 minutes ago, James M said:

So quit asking stupid questions.

Looks like my question wasn't so stupid after all.

My choice will be based on the subtle differences between the fair use of the tools mentioned in the letter (if they're present at all) and predatory practices, there is no "undrawn but clearly evident line" in the letter, only dumb absolutes that nobody really believes in and nobody is really going to boycott anything over.

 Those 6 points in the letter aren't ethical standards by any possible meaning of the term, that's just the OP personal opinion on some unrelated arguments cobbled together, I wouldn't be surprised to see a point against Liquid Hyrdogen in there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Master39 said:

This is what you say, but this:

is what you've signed.

You're not agreeing with the absolutes you signed for, that was my point.

Looks like my question wasn't so stupid after all.

My choice will be based on the subtle differences between the fair use of the tools mentioned in the letter (if they're present at all) and predatory practices, there is no "undrawn but clearly evident line" in the letter, only dumb absolutes that nobody really believes in and nobody is really going to boycott anything over.

 Those 6 points in the letter aren't ethical standards by any possible meaning of the term, that's just the OP personal opinion on some unrelated arguments cobbled together, I wouldn't be surprised to see a point against Liquid Hyrdogen in there.

Why do you even care so much to argue? Great, you called me out on a singular instance where what I signed for wasn't exactly what was written. When you vote for a president, are they always exactly what you want? Probably not. But it's important, so you vote for them anyway. The petition isn't some holy document with zero flaws whatsoever. It was written by a regular individual in the community with valid concerns on the subject. If you know better and you ACTUALLY care at all, then go write you own "Better" petition, and I'll sign that one. 

Except you don't. And you won't.

Edited by James M
Link to post
Share on other sites

We're back to "If you don't sign it you don't care" now with a bonus round of "or if you don't write a better one".

The point is not if I care or not, the point is that out of 6 points only one has anything to do with the problem this is supposed to be a reaction to.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I get the time, (Which I don't have honestly right now.) I'll go through each individual point if you'd like and spell out the unethical means of how a corporation like Take Two might use unethical means to turn KSP2 from the game Star Theory and us as the KSP community imagined it to be into just another cash cow video game. Furthermore, I don't care if you sign it or not, but if you're apt to point out each and every flaw in the petition proposed and each person's comments on the subject, then either 1. You care or 2. You're intentionally being toxic. I only proposed you just go write your own giving you the benefit of the doubt that option 1 might've been applicable there. Maybe not? 

Edited by James M
Link to post
Share on other sites

This OP has a weird point to make, and it has fired an even weirder discussion. It shows, tho, how toxic T2's move was and the kind of conflict that KSP2's development could have done without. 

I voiced this elsewhere but will voice here again: my main concern is that, for corporate reasons, this will affect KSP2's final quality. Many a game ended up unfulfilling its potential because it had to be rushed, development went into obstacles etc. At the end of the day it has to make a profit and changing teams, legal issues, postponements etc. affect profit. I sure hope the game is not curtailed because of those recent events, such as my biggest fear, which is moddability being hampered or removed so that the game can be finished quicker or sold cheaper or etc. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2020 at 2:13 PM, mattihase said:

WE, THE KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM COMMUNITY

PROMISE THAT WE WILL NOT PURCHASE THE GAME KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2
UNLESS IT ADHERES TO THE FOLLOWING ETHICAL STANDARDS:

1) THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM AT INTERCEPT GAMES MUST NOT BE FORCED OR OTHERWISE COERCED TO CRUNCH AND/OR WORK UNPAID OVERTIME DURING THE DEVELOPMENT OF KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2.

2) KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 MUST NOT FEATURE EXCLUSIVE PRE-ORDER CONTENT, DAY-ONE DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT (DLC) OR PAY-LOCKED CONTENT (PLC), NOR MAY IT CONTAIN A PURCHASABLE IN-GAME CURRENCY OR IN-APP PURCHASES IN ANY OTHER FORM, COSMETIC OR PAY-TO-WIN MICROTRANSACTIONS, OR LOOTBOXES ("SURPRISE MECHANICS").

3) KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 MUST BE RELEASED ON ALL PROMISED ONLINE STOREFRONTS, STEAM, THE XBOX MARKETPLACE AND THE PLAYSTATION STOREAT THE POINT OF LAUNCH ON SAID STOREFRONTS' RESPECTIVE PLATFORMS AND AT THE SAME POINT IN TIME REGARDLESS OF REGION.

4) KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 MUST RELEASE WITH THE PROMISED MOD SUPPORT. FURTHERMORE TAKE 2 INTERACTIVE MUST NOT CLAIM ANY OWNERSHIP OVER USER-GENERATED CONTENT WITHIN THE END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA) INCLUDED WITHIN THE KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 RELEASE.

5) KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 MUST NOT RELEASE ON PC PACKAGED WITH INTRUSIVE DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT (DRM) SOFTWARE, INCLUDING THOSE PRODUCED BY DENUVO SOFTWARE SOLUTIONS GMBH. NOR WILL KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2 FEATURE ANTI-CHEAT SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY DENUVO OR OTHER COMPANIES AS IT WOULD VIOLATE THE ABOVE CONDITION REGARDING MOD SUPPORT.

6) IN THE EVENT OF FUTURE CHANGES IN THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM, SUCH AS THE CHANGE OF DEVELOPMENT STUDIO FROM STAR THEORY TO INTERCEPT GAMESTAKE 2 INTERACTIVE MUST, AS A SIGN OF GOOD FAITH, RELEASE A STATEMENT DETAILING THE CAUSE AND NATURE OF THE CHANGE IN DEVELOPMENT TEAM.

IN THE EVENT OF A SERIOUS BREACH OF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS, WE THE KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM COMMUNITY AGREE AMONGST OURSELVES TO
BOYCOTT THE RELEASE OF KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM 2.

SIGN HERE

 

July 2020: 1.10 is fresh in our minds. KSP2 hype trailer comes out. We all unsign.

1 day later: Shut up and take my $ memes pop up everywhere on the KSP Memes Megathread.

August 2020: the few signers also break their promise. Pre orders skyrocket faster than a 4.8 TWR rocket.

2021: CLOSED BETA. HYPE. 5 hype train threads. 1 billion pre orders hit.

JULY 2021: after many announcements, release date for August 31. The hype is real.

SEPTEMBER 2021: Two billion purchases. This petition is all but forgotten.

its the sad truth. The other two threads also have a post from me. I might sign. I’m afraid of breaking my promise tho.

fine. I signed under my favorite pen name. Can you guess? Ofcourse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HansonKerman said:

July 2020: 1.10 is fresh in our minds. KSP2 hype trailer comes out. We all unsign.

1 day later: Shut up and take my $ memes pop up everywhere on the KSP Memes Megathread.

August 2020: the few signers also break their promise. Pre orders skyrocket faster than a 4.8 TWR rocket.

2021: CLOSED BETA. HYPE. 5 hype train threads. 1 billion pre orders hit.

JULY 2021: after many announcements, release date for August 31. The hype is real.

SEPTEMBER 2021: Two billion purchases. This petition is all but forgotten.

its the sad truth. The other two threads also have a post from me. I might sign. I’m afraid of breaking my promise tho.

fine. I signed under my favorite pen name. Can you guess? Ofcourse.

You're only breaking the promise if you buy the game after it has been verified that T2 broke any or all of the conditions written on the petition. You're not breaking any promises if you buy the game after it was developed in a just and reasonable manner toward both the customers and the developers themselves. 

Also if you're signing the petition, and you are actually serious about being a part of the solution, I urge you to wait for a little while after the game's eventual release, to find out more information about T2's treatment of the situation/game. If news comes out a week later that the devs were treated like crap but were afraid to say anything, and you already bought the game, it's too late to go back at that point.

Edited by James M
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2020 at 10:16 PM, SOXBLOX said:

Pardon, but is it any of your business whether the game is developed ethically or not? 

That's like asking if its any of your business if that Rolex watch someone is selling is stolen or not, if a product that you are buying is made with slave labor, if organ donations come from victims of accidents or some operation that murders people and harvests their organs.

If they do something unethical to make a product, and you pay for that product, you are paying them to commit unethical acts on your behalf.

At this point, you yourself have commited an unethical act. 

If you have no sense of morals, then go ahead, but its absolutely someone's business whether or not they commit acts that they deem unethical.

Its his business if he buys the game, and pays the people that developed a game ethically or not.

I am not a believer in absolute morality, and its possible that TTI was justified in its acts... but for now their acts have the appearance of unethical behavior, and if they have a defense, they should absolutely present it.

If they can't bother to expain themselves, I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, James M said:

You're only breaking the promise if you buy the game after it has been verified that T2 broke any or all of the conditions written on the petition.

But...

8 hours ago, James M said:

Great, you called me out on a singular instance where what I signed for wasn't exactly what was written.

So you're willing to break the promise you made, if they make a game that only breaks a few of the rules laid out in the petition?

Edited by Superfluous J
Link to post
Share on other sites

I, for one, will not be purchasing KSP 2. Or any other game from TTI. I have already shunted everything TTI related into my "ignore" folder, blacklisted the company so none of it's games show in my feeds, and everything that I *was* interested in has been removed from my wishlist.

I feel bad for the devs at the bottom. It's not their fault. Then again, the few people that actually stick to a boycott are unlikely to make any difference to them 'cause it's not like greedy corporatist asshats would offer such lowly peons a profit share. As such, whatever boycott *does* happen is only likely to hit the bottom-line of TTI, and I'm fine with that.

And yes... while I accept that we don't know everything about this, the simple fact that TTI tried to keep it buried, and tried passing the disruption off as Covid related instead (yeah... like using a global pandemic which has killed hundreds of thousands of people would've been a step *UP*?!? Retarded morons....), inclines me to believe that however this whole saga occured, TTI was at the heart of whatever loveed up, unethical repurposed bovine waste happened.

Edited by Thalamask
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thalamask said:

while I accept that we don't know everything about this, the simple fact that TTI tried to keep it buried

Yea, my feeling is that if they had a defense, they would present it. "Pleading the 5th", as Americans say, is often not a very good look when addressing the public. The only time I really accept it is when there's a nosy police officer asking questions that aren't any of his business.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, James M said:

You're only breaking the promise if you buy the game after it has been verified that T2 broke any or all of the conditions written on the petition. You're not breaking any promises if you buy the game after it was developed in a just and reasonable manner toward both the customers and the developers themselves. 

Also if you're signing the petition, and you are actually serious about being a part of the solution, I urge you to wait for a little while after the game's eventual release, to find out more information about T2's treatment of the situation/game. If news comes out a week later that the devs were treated like crap but were afraid to say anything, and you already bought the game, it's too late to go back at that point.

that’s what I’m doing. Tt needs to listen. I don’t think it cares that we didn’t like that they decimated Star Theory. And yes, it is a very unethical way to make a game. I understand now. The problem is when the next hypentrailer comes out, we won’t care anymore. See my post in the other threads.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Thalamask @KerikBalm i think something deeper like an NDA maybe the reason for radio silence. At least some of it. Thats my feeling at least.

An NDA normally applies to employees, so I don't expect Nate in the "Hi Everyone" thread to be able to give details. That sort of NDA would not prevent TTI from releasing their own statement approved by management.

There could also be an NDA between the companies of TTI and Star Theory... but if so Star Theory has already violated it- their employees spoke about it for the bloomberg piece. Also if ST is now defunct, it may also be void.

I'm not buying it.

Even if there was an NDA, given that the allegation has been made, they could at least issue a vague denial without giving specifics ("We do not feel that the story reported in Bloomber news accurately portrays the facts, but cannot comment on it further") - but they (so far) haven't.

Its highly suspicious.

Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...