KSP Loading... Preview: New ESA Parts

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

Isn't it fun to be a video game developer?

It is actually

[Kerbart]

4 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

The RFP Flags look like they allow you to put a custom flag on them.

I see myself developing a lot of custom flags with transparent backgrounds that look like windows, access panels, hatches, etc...

[TomPN]

The Ariane 5 boosters are 3.06m and the core is 5.4m. If the core is scaled down to 3.75m, the boosters scale to 2.125m. A better option than what they're doing for the Ariane 5 might be:

• A reskin for the 3.75m parts and the 1.875m booster
• A slanted 1.875m nosecone
• A new, half-height 1.875m booster, so we can replicate the Ariane 6 as well
• A set of 1.25m to 0.625m bi-, tri- and quad- adapters, like the 2.5m to 1.25m adapters, so we can group ion engines together underneath a probe
• A solar panel intermediate between the Gigantor and the 1x6
• Keep the magnetometer boom and the decals - they're awesome
• A 0.625m version of the Advanced Grabbing Unit (the Not-So-Advanced Grabbing Unit?) for Rosetta and Philae replica

Edited June 11, 2020 by TomPN

[Superfluous J]

5 hours ago, AHHans said:

???

What would be your suggestion, that doesn't break the current savefile scheme?

I don't understand that question. I have no suggestion just an observation and a somewhat sad conclusion.

[AHHans]

8 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I don't understand that question. I have no suggestion just an observation and a somewhat sad conclusion.

Well, if they work as I expect from the PAW in the preview, then the RFP Flags let's you put any(*) flag anywhere on your craft. So if you put your images into a "flag" directory below GameData then you can add any image or combination of images onto your craft. What else do you want?

[Edit:] Any solution that would make this significantly easier - like including the image data into the craft file - would require significant changes to at least the idea behind the craft- and save-files.

(*) I.e. not just the mission flag.

Edited June 11, 2020 by AHHans

[Vexillar]

Moar science parts - very welcome IMHO.

And the decals?  Well, I have to like them, don't I?  (looks like I'll need to revamp my modlet post 1.10!)

[Superfluous J]

11 minutes ago, AHHans said:

Well, if they work as I expect from the PAW in the preview, then the RFP Flags let's you put any(*) flag anywhere on your craft. So if you put your images into a "flag" directory below GameData then you can add any image or combination of images onto your craft.

Ah. So they're a radially attached part that's essentially a transparent rectangle with a custom image on it.

Well if it curves automatically to fit the tank size then it's okay I guess. Not what I was expecting is all.

Honestly I never gave the implementation much thought. I just assumed any decals would be integrated into parts somehow. This works so long as they don't create weird drag, contribute too much to part count issues, or oddly float above surfaces.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Superfluous J

[T1mo98]

54 minutes ago, TomPN said:

The Ariane 5 boosters are 3.06m and the core is 5.4m. If the core is scaled down to 3.75m, the boosters scale to 2.125m. A better option than what they're doing for the Ariane 5 might be:

• A reskin for the 3.75m parts and the 1.875m booster
• A slanted 1.875m nosecone
• A new, half-height 1.875m booster, so we can replicate the Ariane 6 as well
• A set of 1.25m to 0.625m bi-, tri- and quad- adapters, like the 2.5m to 1.25m adapters, so we can group ion engines together underneath a probe
• A solar panel intermediate between the Gigantor and the 1x6
• Keep the magnetometer boom and the decals - they're awesome
• A 0.625m version of the Advanced Grabbing Unit (the Not-So-Advanced Grabbing Unit?) for Rosetta and Philae replica

Something like this?

https://imgur.com/a/CoSm0Xa

[AHHans]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Ah. So they're a radially attached part that's essentially a transparent rectangle with a custom image on it.

Essentially yes. Although there are four different variants how that rectangle looks like. (E.g. I think the "White" version has a border.)

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Well if it curves automatically to fit the tank size then it's okay I guess. Not what I was expecting is all.

Not automatically, you have to choose the right size (the PAW in the preview said 1.25 m), but the title says "in all sizes".

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

This works so long as they don't create weird drag, contribute too much to part count issues, or oddly float above surfaces.

Well, I expect them to have no or next to no mass and be physicsless. That should mostly solve the drag and part count issues. And to avoid the floating problem you have to move them into the right position.

P.S. Sorry for my original comment. I thought that you had already come to the above conclusions.
P.P.S. Usual disclaimer: as already mentioned, I don't know that the RFP Flags behave that way. But I think they will.

Edited June 11, 2020 by AHHans
fixed typo

[Starhelperdude]

Will you add the ion engines from BepiColombo? There are four of them, so it could be 1 part with like 4 ''nozzles'' ,they're pretty cool in that they have more thrust than the dawn (in-game one and the N-STAR from the Dawn spacecraft) and can gimbal, but I think they have lower efficiency than the stock one. This would also be modular since you could use it on other sattelites and stuff :).

[Maxsimal]

8 minutes ago, AHHans said:

P.P.S. Usual disclaimer: as already mentioned, I don't know that the RFP Flags behave that way. But I think they will.

Some very good guesses there

[Streetwind]

1 hour ago, TomPN said:

The Ariane 5 boosters are 3.06m and the core is 5.4m. If the core is scaled down to 3.75m, the boosters scale to 2.125m. A better option than what they're doing for the Ariane 5 might be:

• A reskin for the 3.75m parts and the 1.875m booster
• A slanted 1.875m nosecone

*snip*

This is not just an issue of scaling for looks, though.

Consider that one of the announced features of this update is experiencing the Rosetta and BepiColombo missions ingame. Since both of them launched on an Ariane 5 IRL, you can assume that the Ariane 5 stock replica will end up playing a part in those missions.

Now consider how much a 3.75m rocket can lift to orbit and beyond, especially while assisted by a pair of 1.875m boosters. How much dV and thrust/TWR it has.

Next, consider the size of replicas of BepiColombo and Rosetta. What they might weigh. How much space they might require inside a fairing. How much they might tax the lifter that is pushing them to orbit.

...Would you like to arrive at Comet 67/P with the entirety of Ariane 5's first and second stages still attached to your Rosetta spacecraft? Because if you used a 3.75m variant, you probably could!

Remember, we're not playing Realism Overhaul with Real Solar System. We're playing in a 1:11 scale toy universe with relatively overpowered toy parts and ample artistic liberty in the destinations that exist. You'll have to allow for that same artistic liberty to be taken when trying to convert real-life spacecraft into the toy universe. Because no matter how you try and twist it, something is always going to be off. The trick is finding the solution where the thing that ends up being off is something that doesn't break the game.

IMHO, "oh no the proportions are somewhat off, but it works in practice" is a far better compromise than "the proportions are slighty better, though still not right, and it is overpowered to the point of making it impossible to believably replicate the missions it is supposed to be used in."

Edited June 11, 2020 by Streetwind

[AHHans]

Just now, Maxsimal said:

Some very good guesses there

Thanks. But that's not actually rocket science.

[Angelo Kerman]

Stock flags are a welcome addition. I hope they will support a variety of shapes and sizes.

[Gydra54]

I don't really get the "prebuilt" sentiment. It's not like they're giving you the entire rocket to drag and drop, they're giving you pieces that you can use however you desire and combine with whatever other parts you wish. I can say that for me, I've used plenty of the SLS parts to make things that are not remotely like an SLS, and the making history parts to make things that are not remotely like any Apollo spacecraft, for example. That said, for balance and part sizing reasons, I understand the compromise they made for the accuracy of the recreation.

[kerbiloid]

25 minutes ago, AHHans said:

36 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Well if it curves automatically to fit the tank size then it's okay I guess. Not what I was expecting is all.

Not automatically, you have to choose the right size (the PAW in the preview said 1.25 m), but the title says "in all sizes".

Sizes i.e. height/widths, but they could adjust their curvature radius.
(Though, I think, they don't).

It would be great to have in cfg some  DECAL { picture="myflag.dds"  text="Ad astra!" } and a Unity object in the part's object subtree loading that picture and text.

Edited June 11, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, Gydra54 said:

I don't really get the "prebuilt" sentiment.

Because they are. They're stuff you could make right now but they're being prebuilt. No point in the whole creativity thing KSP has going on if it's creating for the players.

[SpaceFace545]

43 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because they are. They're stuff you could make right now but they're being prebuilt. No point in the whole creativity thing KSP has going on if it's creating for the players.

but this wasn't a complete ksp update, it was a publicity stunt pulled by ESA to team up with KSP in part by providing parts to make ESA probes.

[Superfluous J]

43 minutes ago, Gydra54 said:

I've used plenty of the SLS parts to make things that are not remotely like an SLS, and the making history parts to make things that are not remotely like any Apollo spacecraft, for example.

SLS parts and most parts from Making history are great, because the fill a very obvious niche and/or add parts that are distinct and useful IN ADDITION TO making it possible to recreate vessels similar to real-world rockets.

The notable exception to this is the M.E.M., which is just a 2-Person Lander Can with an inconvenient shape (Whenever I EVA in space it creates a phantom force because the Kerbal's helmet clips into the little bit sticking above the door) and inconvenient RCS ports (I *need* RCS Build Aid to use them, so I can put more ports in the proper places to fix rotation). I never use it because it's less clunky to just stack 2 pods together. Or use the 2-man Vostok capsule (Onion? Pomegranate?) which is a GREAT example of something make to look like a real world counterpart but serve a unique function.

What function would a Kickback/BACC hybrid with a size not matched by any other parts serve? Or are you suggesting a bevy of parts in this odd size to match it? No thanks.

[jimmymcgoochie]

Update 1.8 was literally called "Moar Boosters!" and added FIVE new solid boosters into the game, and yet people are still asking for moar moar boosters?

I built a nearly real scale Black Arrow rocket using stock + Making History parts which had almost identical thrust and delta-V values for the first two stages- it made a land and return flight to the Mun and still had fuel in the third stage when it hit the atmosphere whereas the real thing could barely scrape into low Earth orbit with a satellite that weighed less than me. Ariane 5 is a big rocket with a lot of thrust and payload capacity; replicated at real scale, it would be far too powerful for KSP so (just like Saturn V in Making History) they made it half sized and then had to choose from existing part sizes for the parts instead of adding a new, orphan size category just to make the boosters 'look right'. It doesn't look exactly like the real thing, but it's close enough to pass for it under light scrutiny.

Are the new probe parts a bit niche? Yes, but then again so is the MEM and the service modules in MH; at least these probe bits have lots of flat surfaces to stick other parts on and could be used elsewhere. Could a new solar panel have been added between the deployable panels and the Gigantor? Probably, but the probe wouldn't actually need that much power to operate in KSP anyway.

Now, where are those ESA style spacesuits?

[Nertea]

Please, for the love of pete, just fix this. Then I'll shut up.

[Nightside]

19 minutes ago, Nertea said:

Please, for the love of pete, just fix this. Then I'll shut up.

Flags will be fun though.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Nightside

[theJesuit]

3 hours ago, Streetwind said:

This is not just an issue of scaling for looks, though.

Consider that one of the announced features of this update is experiencing the Rosetta and BepiColombo missions ingame. Since both of them launched on an Ariane 5 IRL, you can assume that the Ariane 5 stock replica will end up playing a part in those missions.

Now consider how much a 3.75m rocket can lift to orbit and beyond, especially while assisted by a pair of 1.875m boosters. How much dV and thrust/TWR it has.

<snip>

Remember, we're not playing Realism Overhaul with Real Solar System. We're playing in a 1:11 scale toy universe with relatively overpowered toy parts and ample artistic liberty in the destinations that exist. You'll have to allow for that same artistic liberty to be taken when trying to convert real-life spacecraft into the toy universe. Because no matter how you try and twist it, something is always going to be off. The trick is finding the solution where the thing that ends up being off is something that doesn't break the game.

IMHO, "oh no the proportions are somewhat off, but it works in practice" is a far better compromise than "the proportions are slighty better, though still not right, and it is overpowered to the point of making it impossible to believably replicate the missions it is supposed to be used in."

What about a more balanced 2.5 - 2.7 rescaled playthrough such as JNSQ?

Just pulling your leg

Peace.

[KerballingSmasher]

DECAAAAAAAAALS!

[Klapaucius]

20 hours ago, HansonKerman said:

exactly. That’s gonna be a nightmare to incorporate into original craft. I might make a mission idea in Challenges and Mission Ideas just to challenge someone to do that.

again, opposite of what I wanted

Sounds like a good challenge to me!  A good excuse to build another weird craft at K.R.A.S.S.H. Industries (Klapaucius Reliable Air, Space, Sea & Hardware).