tridimensional thrust

[king of nowhere]

it's easy to get a rendez-vous with an astronaut wearing a jetpack, it's much harder to do it with a ship. the jetpack has superior manueverability because i can immediately push in every direction. i don't need to turn the whole ship if i want to decelerate.

which got me thinking; actually, there's no reason i shouldn't have rockets on my front and sides too. so i experimented making a craft with small propulsors all around, for manuevering.

it didn't work. it has great potential, the problem is that i can't command it just like a jetpack. the game won't make a distinction for all the various engines, won't recognize a key as an order to move right or back. it will just keep trying to change attitude. so i have to manually start and stop each engine individually by right-clicking on the stage section. this makes the process so slow and unwieldy that everything that could be gained is lost on difficulty. the several seconds needed to manually shut down an engine and start another lose all the accuracy that could be gained. in the end i found it easier to just turn around the whole ship

however, this method would work if i could command it properly.

is there any way to make it work?

[Spricigo]

That's what the RCS system actually do. 

If you want a RCS system made with regular rocket engines you need to set the activation toggles of each engine in the editor (needs advanced tweakables enabled) 

[AHHans]

6 hours ago, Spricigo said:

If you want a RCS system made with regular rocket engines you need to set the activation toggles of each engine in the editor (needs advanced tweakables enabled) 

Errrr... Only the RCS thrusters can be used for RCS, the normal rocket engines cannot be used for RCS.

What you can set in the "activation toggles" is that RCS thrusters can be used with the regular throttle just like a normal engine.

[Fraston]

Have you tried docking mode with regular RCS? It works like a charm, since you aren’t doing much orienting, just moving on a 3D plane.

[king of nowhere]

i tried the rcs expecting it to work like the jetpack, but all it did was control the attitude. i tried it, but i couldn't get it to do anything that reaction wheels weren't doing already

[Streetwind]

35 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i tried the rcs expecting it to work like the jetpack, but all it did was control the attitude. i tried it, but i couldn't get it to do anything that reaction wheels weren't doing already

RCS actually does both - rotation (changing the attitude) and translation (shifting sideways/up and down while maintaining attitude). The thing you're missing is the fact that, quite obviously, it cannot do both with the same keys.

So for starters, there is docking mode, which is that middle button between the orbit info and control info tabs in the lower left corner of the screen. In docking mode, WASDQE causes RCS thrusters to translate instead of rotate. However, almost nobody ever uses this mode, because... well, WASDQE no longer rotates your ship. And you might want to still do that.

Instead, everyone just ignores docking mode completely and just uses the alternate RCS hotkeys. H/N for forwards/backwards. J/L for left/right. I/K for up/down.

Keep in mind that even if you use those keys, your spacecraft may still involuntarily rotate anyway. When that happens, you will know that your ship is unbalanced - the combined thrust vector of the RCS thrusters is not firing through the center of mass, and thus induces torque. To have a balanced spacecraft, you need to pay attention to where exactly you place your RCS thrusters during construction. Additionally, you can press CapsLock to activate precision steering mode. In this mode, the thrusters try to adjust their individual output so that they do not induce torque. It will not fix a completely unbalanced design (a long ship with a single ring of thrusters on just one end), but it helps in most cases. Make sure SAS is enabled, so that the reaction wheels help dampen any unwanted rotation.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Streetwind

[jimmymcgoochie]

IJKLHN controls translation for RCS thrusters- IK is up/down, JL is left/right and HN is front/back.

You could set up small LF/Ox thrusters (like ant/spider) to do the same by setting up some elaborate keybinds to the translation controls, but it's better to use the dedicated RCS thrusters which do it automatically, and if you want some more oomph use the LF/Ox but unidirectional Vernor; alternatively you could try a mod that adds more RCS thrusters- my personal recommendation there is CritterCrawler which adds retractable RCS in both flat and curved variants that are twice as powerful as the stock thrusters, slightly more efficient and retract to sit flush against the surface when not in use to reduce drag.

[Fraktal]

9 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Instead, everyone just ignores docking mode completely and just uses the alternate RCS hotkeys.

Objectively incorrect. I use docking mode all the time.

[RoninFrog]

On 6/12/2020 at 4:29 PM, Spricigo said:

That's what the RCS system actually do. 

If you want a RCS system made with regular rocket engines you need to set the activation toggles of each engine in the editor (needs advanced tweakables enabled) 

What?  We can use regular engines as RCS?

My days of spamming hundreds of Vernors are over!

19 hours ago, AHHans said:

Errrr... Only the RCS thrusters can be used for RCS, the normal rocket engines cannot be used for RCS.

What you can set in the "activation toggles" is that RCS thrusters can be used with the regular throttle just like a normal engine.

Ah, blast.  Nevermind.

[Spricigo]

22 hours ago, AHHans said:

Errrr... Only the RCS thrusters can be used for RCS, the normal rocket engines cannot be used for RCS.

What you can set in the "activation toggles" is that RCS thrusters can be used with the regular throttle just like a normal engine.

Well, you are correct about activation toggles. I guess my mistake was because I setup regular engines work as RCS just once and didn't even used it.

2 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

What?  We can use regular engines as RCS?

My days of spamming hundreds of Vernors are over!

Ah, blast.  Nevermind.

Don't give up yet. 

The actual method (just checked in game) 

1.Set Throttle to Independent in the part window. 

2.Set Toggle Engine to RCS Action Group. (a regular Action Group works too) 

3.Set Throttle to the required Axis Group (chose reverse if needed) 

4.Set Throttle to an different Axis Group (this allows to cut the engines in one direction without firing engines in the opposite direction) 

It doesn't work exactly like the regular RCS but it have some uses (like turning that huge interplanetary mothership or VTOL planes).  

[king of nowhere]

On 6/13/2020 at 8:58 AM, Fraston said:

Have you tried docking mode with regular RCS? It works like a charm, since you aren’t doing much orienting, just moving on a 3D plane.

i just tried the docking mode, but can't seem to get the trick.

the problem is that i still need to do some orienting to fix the proper orientation, especially when grabbing something with the claw. and docking mode does not, that i can find out, let me fix my orientation. and it seems to create problems there if i try to switch back to normal mode to change orientation and back again.

also, it's exceedingly difficult to estimate the orientation of your craft and the subsequent direction of your push. the navsphere only helps so much. a first person perspective would actually be more helpful, but it would force me to send pilots when a simple automated probe can do the job for a fraction of the cost.

in the end i did a lot of swinging around fruitlessly, until i decided to get back to the old way i know, and i docked more easily

Edited June 15, 2020 by king of nowhere

[Rhomphaia]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i just tried the docking mode, but can't seem to get the trick.

the problem is that i still need to do some orienting to fix the proper orientation, especially when grabbing something with the claw. and docking mode does not, that i can find out, let me fix my orientation. and it seems to create problems there if i try to switch back to normal mode to change orientation and back again.

also, it's exceedingly difficult to estimate the orientation of your craft and the subsequent direction of your push. the navsphere only helps so much. a first person perspective would actually be more helpful, but it would force me to send pilots when a simple automated probe can do the job for a fraction of the cost.

in the end i did a lot of swinging around fruitlessly, until i decided to get back to the old way i know, and i docked more easily

Docking mode just switches the controls so IJKL does rotation if you need to reorient.

 

Another thing that may help is to choose "Locked" for the camera mode, in this mode if the camera is pointed at the back of your craft then the control axes will match the camera axes

[Klapaucius]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:12 AM, king of nowhere said:

it's easy to get a rendez-vous with an astronaut wearing a jetpack, it's much harder to do it with a ship. the jetpack has superior manueverability because i can immediately push in every direction. i don't need to turn the whole ship if i want to decelerate.

which got me thinking; actually, there's no reason i shouldn't have rockets on my front and sides too. so i experimented making a craft with small propulsors all around, for manuevering.

it didn't work. it has great potential, the problem is that i can't command it just like a jetpack. the game won't make a distinction for all the various engines, won't recognize a key as an order to move right or back. it will just keep trying to change attitude. so i have to manually start and stop each engine individually by right-clicking on the stage section. this makes the process so slow and unwieldy that everything that could be gained is lost on difficulty. the several seconds needed to manually shut down an engine and start another lose all the accuracy that could be gained. in the end i found it easier to just turn around the whole ship

however, this method would work if i could command it properly.

is there any way to make it work?

A workaround for this would be to put on all the engines you want, and then put each set--left, right, front, rear--into a separate action group that toggles the engine on and off.  Then you just swap between the action groups to do this.

[Spricigo]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:58 PM, king of nowhere said:

Also, it's exceedingly difficult to estimate the orientation of your craft and the subsequent direction of your push. the navsphere only helps so much. a first person perspective would actually be more helpful...

No, it wouldn't. The navball is always oriented the same way your controls are, no matter what odd viewpoint you need to look at the docking port alignment/separation. It's just that you are a new player  not used to the navball yet, you still look at the movement of your ship when you should be looking to the navball, you see the target "above" and you when you try to move "up" it goes "sideways" because the camera lies to you.

 Maybe there is a few amongs us that are related to Buzz Aldrin or something and "just knew it", but most had to learn it just like you. (The forum have plenty of evidence of this) We may give you some pointes, there is a few good tutorials around but most of it is practice. 

Notice, a craft is as easy to fly as designed to be. If there is a bunch of RCS thrusters randomly placed, the craft will randomly rotate when trying to do translation (and the other way around) but If there the right amount of thrusters carefully placed to be aligned with the Center of Mass set only for translation the craft will only translate when commanded to do so. If you have trouble designing a craft that is balanced then post a picture and ask "what I'm doing wrong?" very often is something that EveryoneButTheDesigner^TM  can easily spot. 

[sturmhauke]

I can dock with the stock instruments, but I find it doesn't really give enough information. In particular, target mode can tell you if you are facing the other craft but not if you are off-axis. I prefer the Docking Port Alignment Indicator mod; there are a few others out there also. It gives more information about your relative orientation so you don't have to eyeball it.

[Klapaucius]

41 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

I can dock with the stock instruments, but I find it doesn't really give enough information. In particular, target mode can tell you if you are facing the other craft but not if you are off-axis. I prefer the Docking Port Alignment Indicator mod; there are a few others out there also. It gives more information about your relative orientation so you don't have to eyeball it.

I use the Matt Lowne method and set targets with both vessels.  It does not require using RCS which is a bonus if, like me, you never do it right.

[sturmhauke]

19 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

I use the Matt Lowne method and set targets with both vessels.  It does not require using RCS which is a bonus if, like me, you never do it right.

I do that when it's convenient, but turning a massive space station is ponderous and may invite krakens.

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, Spricigo said:

No, it wouldn't. The navball is always oriented the same way your controls are, no matter what odd viewpoint you need to look at the docking port alignment/separation. It's just that you are a new player  not used to the navball yet, you still look at the movement of your ship when you should be looking to the navball, you see the target "above" and you when you try to move "up" it goes "sideways" because the camera lies to you.

 

i do use the navsphere and i routinely perform complex docking. i don't use the rcs system, so when i have my prograde indicator straight on target, i know i am on the right track. i may need to stop a few meters earlier to realign, but that's all. the navsphere is good for that kind of movements. accelerating when pointing prograde moves me towards the target. accelerating retrograde slows me down. and i can fix directions with the attitude.

but when i try to use the rcs and the thrusters are moving me sideways, the navsphere does not help. i accelerate at a 90 degrees angle, now my attitude remains the same and my speed moves somewhat to the side. how much? how fast am i moving to the side, and how fast am i moving forward? i don't know! oh, i could still get those information out of the navsphere with some trigonometry, but as far as deciding which way to go, it's worthless.

say i am docking at a large space station, so i don't want to turn the whole station, and i am off center to the docking port. or perhaps i got a mission to grab a floating piece of junk with the claw, and i need to align it perfectly. i would want to move a couple meters to the right, then realign to the port, and then complete the docking. that's the kind of manuever i would hope the rcs could help me with. but it fails, because i can't judge the whole "push a couple meters to the right, then push back to stop". not in a useful time to actually act on it. by the time i figured out how to stop, i am more off-center than before. with an astronaut's jetpack instead i can do it easily, because i can see where they are going. when manuevering a ship, the ship itself blocks my view.

getting to within 5 meters of the target is easy, once you get the hang of the navsphere. but those last 5 meters would be judged more easily by eye. and you don't need to be buzz aldrin to be able to point to something that is literally at arm's lenght by eyeballing it

[Rhomphaia]

8 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

I do that when it's convenient, but turning a massive space station is ponderous and may invite krakens.

I personally prefer having docking ports on my station aligned along the normal axis, no need to rotate the station then.

[sturmhauke]

13 minutes ago, Rhomphaia said:

I personally prefer having docking ports on my station aligned along the normal axis, no need to rotate the station then.

Yeah I do that too, but then we're back to the question of how you tell whether your axis is aligned exactly with the target's. You can eyeball it by moving the camera around a bunch, or you can use a mod to help.

[AHHans]

41 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

Yeah I do that too, but then we're back to the question of how you tell whether your axis is aligned exactly with the target's.

Well, I switch between the station (i.e. the craft I'm not rotationg around) and the docking ship. When I target the ship from the station and set "control from here" to the targeted docking port on the station then the navball will tell me if the ship is in the axis of the docking port and/or if it is moving towards that axis. As e.g. described in @Snark's Illustrated guide to docking (although he used a mod and didn't switch vessels).

Edited June 17, 2020 by AHHans

[Rhomphaia]

1 hour ago, sturmhauke said:

Yeah I do that too, but then we're back to the question of how you tell whether your axis is aligned exactly with the target's. You can eyeball it by moving the camera around a bunch, or you can use a mod to help.

Well if the target port is pointing normal, and the active port is pointing anti-normal, then they are aligned on 2 axis, then use stability hold rather than target to maintain.  Eyeballing the roll axis is not too difficult and only really matters when adding new permanent modules

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

how you tell whether your axis is aligned exactly with the target's

The same way I verify that my ship is orbiting perfectly equatorially. Depending on how you define it, I:

1. Don't
2. Eyeball it.

Seeing as I always get docked, I must be doing something correctly.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Superfluous J

[Spricigo]

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i do use the navsphere and i routinely perform complex docking. i don't use the rcs system....

but when i try to use the rcs and the thrusters are moving me sideways, the navsphere does not help....

 

I know I will sound condencendenting but:

I understand that is how you perceive the whole situation, but it is not, by any means, a problem with the navball. It is just a matter of technique that you didn't developed yet. 

While you have trouble telling your alignment is correct a veteran says:

7 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

 Depending on how you define it, I:

1. Don't
2. Eyeball it.

Seeing as I always get docked, I must be doing something correctly.

And while you are trying to do it just a few meters away he probably start to do a thousand meters away.

 

Docking is a dance. Some people move graciously with the music and...some trip in their own foot!? 

No, it's not that I was trying to say. Oh well, also true. But hey! You can learn to move graciously too, just be patient and keep practicing.

 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Spricigo said:

 

I know I will sound condencendenting but:

I understand that is how you perceive the whole situation, but it is not, by any means, a problem with the navball. It is just a matter of technique that you didn't developed yet. 

 

not only you sound condescending,  you sound like one of those old geezers that are all like "we didn't have all those fancy stuff in our days, and we managed just fine". (no offence intended)

sure. of course you can dock a ship with just the navball, and perhaps some eyeballing. just like you can light a fire with just a flint. and you can even do it quickly and reliably enough, once you're practiced. it doesn't mean that there aren't better ways.

I can do a docking just fine with the tools i have. i get most of them on the first try, if at least one of the crafts involved has decent manueverability (btw, you also sound like you've seriously underestimated me). that does not mean that i can't look for better ways to do it. i would never want a mod to do it, but wishing for a first person camera to better gauge the alignment and distance in the final few meters is not cheating.

Edited June 17, 2020 by king of nowhere