Can you survive a train wreck?

[Arugela]

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to-attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a

 

Is NPR a joke sight. If not how does someone crash a train into a concrete barrier and derail it and not die?! What would be the physics behind this? Is this the NPR from that show from the 90's joe rogan was on or is this a real NPR. I thought it was a real news organization though.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/us/train-derailed-mercy-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

 

I'm going to assume it was not as violently as the first storry made it sound. It said full speed..

 

Quote

The affidavit also detailed videos taken from inside the train. In one, Moreno ignites a road flare inside the train, the affidavit said. He then "put the train in full speed and held his hand toward the camera with his middle finger raised."

It would be funny if there was some sort of gas leak or something involved. I wonder if trains can give off fumes and literally make someone get weird like that. I bet nobody involved will look into anything like that.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Arugela

[Shpaget]

Not joke. It really happened.

As to how he survived, luck and chance.

[Arugela]

Wouldn't a train engineer have the education to know if it could reach the boat. Isn't that part of the education to become a train engineer? I thought they had to at least have a general engineering background.

 

This story is very odd. Sounds like they made it up and some hippy made up a story about it. How does any of this make sense for someone with an actual education. Or can anyone become a train engineer these days. I'll assume it does not require an engineering degree anymore.

 

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/how-to-become-a-train-engineer

 

Apparently not. I would say make it a requirement for entry level work for people going into engineering. I mean an engineer(the namesake of the profession) actually being a requirement for the job... Although it would probably just lead a bunch of people to flood engineering to get the jobs. I'm surprised it pays so much also. 60k a year with only a high school diploma and good stamina... I could make a joke about running a train, but it might derail the thread.

It's treated like a truck driver by the looks of it and not an engineering profession. Do they not do repairs or anything. Could they not improve the operation or design of the train if run by professionals... Engineers have higher ethics and would be more suited for this outside of the boredom. Which they are also accustom to. How did we get it so we don't have actual engineers being engineers... 60k a year would be great for people who want to get an entry level job after college. Get to see the world too. Only downside I could see is if it makes people leave the job more for higher paying work(it might not matter as less experience/training would be needed by engineering graduates making this less of a problem.). Although I have a feeling this work already similarly works this way for other reasons. At least you would have the potential for retention. With that much education running around you could probably expand businesses also. Or are the people running these companies so corrupt and greedy somehow they have to worry about people who understand everything around them being employed?

We need to stock society with higher education anyway. Why not start with something like this. More engineers running things would not hurt the world. Outside of people who hate educated people and ethics. Which seem to already be in every facet of life already. That would be the only problem if those people resist out of fear of competition or other things.

 

I would think the increase in education amongst drivers at least would help versatility for the companies normal operations. They could teach them to do more repairs and have more safety in case of emergencies potentially. And staffing could be more versatile. Training would take less time and people could swap positions more readily or gain position more quickly if that is already normal. And they could probably apply better training for more advanced tasks. This would only be stopped by the owners getting in the way if they are also not actual engineers. Then you get the same potential problems of software companies being owned by people not as educated as they should be as that is always a hindrance.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Arugela

[Nightside]

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

Is NPR a joke sight.

Nope, it is a news site, although I agree this article is a little awkward. I think they are taking great pains to not specify whatever crackpot theory the operator was promoting.

 

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

I'm going to assume it was not as violently as the first storry made it sound. It said full speed..

Trains don't even have to go very fast to derail, the scary thing about trains is their MASS and hence their INERTIA. A train loaded with a hundred oil tank cars traveling 5 mph will have a lot more kinetic energy than a fast car travelling 100 mph. That said, this particular train appears to been only a locomotive, there aren't any cars attached in the video. Even so a locomotive is BIG and if it is moving fast, it will have a lot of kinetic energy.

 

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

"put the train in full speed...

Just because he opened up the throttle doesn't mean the train was moving at its maximum speed by the time he reached the end of the track.

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

I wonder if trains can give off fumes

It burns diesel, so it releases Carbon Monoxide, who knows what other solvents or chemicals were in the cab.

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

Wouldn't a train engineer have the education to know if it could reach the boat. Isn't that part of the education to become a train engineer? I thought they had to at least have a general engineering background.

Operator is probably a better term. A train engineer is an old term from the days when the operator probably did need to know how to fix the engine if it failed in a remote location. Like software engineers, train operators don't have a background in physical sciences like civil or mechanical engineers, it is just a job name.

 

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

Wouldn't a train engineer have the education to know if it could reach the boat.

This guy was nuts, I don't think he was calculating his kinetic energy why chugging down the rails. 

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

It's treated like a truck driver by the looks of it and not an engineering profession. Do they not do repairs or anything

Except on Star Trek, most engineers don't make repairs, they design or analyze systems or structures.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Nightside said:

Except on Star Trek, most engineers don't make repairs, they design or analyze systems or structures.

Except on Star Trek and real ships (trains too, back in the day). This definition is actually older, that's why they're called "engineers". Since this the most cutting edge materials and systems of the era was used in steam engines, engineers had to be quite well versed in these things. It was only later that the term expanded, and the railroads and ships kept the older meaning.

[insert_name]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_rail_accidents

most of them mention survivors

[mikegarrison]

In the US, the people that operate the train engines are called "engineers". They are sometimes called "operating engineers" to distinguish them from "professional engineers" who typically design things rather than drive trains. ("Operating engineers" does not necessarily mean trains, either. It means anyone whose job it is to operate engines. Unlike professional engineers, these people are usually trained at trade schools or by apprenticeships rather than universities.)

57 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

Except on Star Trek and real ships (trains too, back in the day). This definition is actually older, that's why they're called "engineers".

The name actually goes back to Roman times. As wikipedia says: The term engineering is derived from the Latin ingenium, meaning "cleverness" and ingeniare, meaning "to contrive, devise".

Edited June 13, 2020 by mikegarrison

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

  

59 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

In the US, the people that operate the train engines are called "engineers". They are sometimes called "operating engineers" to distinguish them from "professional engineers" who typically design things rather than drive trains. ("Operating engineers" does not necessarily mean trains, either. It means anyone whose job it is to operate engines. Unlike professional engineers, these people are usually trained at trade schools or by apprenticeships rather than universities.)

How do they call the engineers who trains the operating engineers? "Training engineers"?
Then how do they know that a training engineer trains the engineers rather than operates with the train engine and perform the training in sense of "train", rather than "train"?

Spoiler

When I was playing "Arnhem" on ZX Spectrum, I was puzzled with the "...th training battalion".
I had no idea why they sent railroad workers to capture the bridge.

 

 

[Hannu2]

7 hours ago, Arugela said:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to-attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a

 

Is NPR a joke sight. If not how does someone crash a train into a concrete barrier and derail it and not die?! What would be the physics behind this? Is this the NPR from that show from the 90's joe rogan was on or is this a real NPR. I thought it was a real news organization though.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/us/train-derailed-mercy-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

 

I'm going to assume it was not as violently as the first storry made it sound. It said full speed..

 

It would be funny if there was some sort of gas leak or something involved. I wonder if trains can give off fumes and literally make someone get weird like that. I bet nobody involved will look into anything like that.

As you see, chassis of locomotive has kept is shape. Nothing have compressed driver. Locomotive is very massive and deceleration is quite slow, if it does not hit to hard object, like another locomotive or hard buildings. Locomotive may have slided hundreds of meters before stopping if is has really ran at full speed, which is probably around 140 km/h with such heavy diesel freight locomotive. But I am quite sure, that safety system has allowed much lower speed, because locomotive body seems to be quite undamaged. It is strange that it has allowed loco to run pass red signals without automated emergency braking. I do not know what kind of safety system is used in USA, but if I remember correctly disabling of safety system (which may be done in special situations with special permission of traffic controllers, like carefully pushing damaged and stopped train to next station or passing track construction area without fully working safety system) limits top speed to 50 km/h in Finnish system. And as far as I know, driver has no simple way to override that.

[mikegarrison]

16 minutes ago, Hannu2 said:

As you see, chassis of locomotive has kept is shape. Nothing have compressed driver. Locomotive is very massive and deceleration is quite slow, if it does not hit to hard object, like another locomotive or hard buildings. Locomotive may have slided hundreds of meters before stopping if is has really ran at full speed, which is probably around 140 km/h with such heavy diesel freight locomotive. But I am quite sure, that safety system has allowed much lower speed, because locomotive body seems to be quite undamaged. It is strange that it has allowed loco to run pass red signals without automated emergency braking. I do not know what kind of safety system is used in USA, but if I remember correctly disabling of safety system (which may be done in special situations with special permission of traffic controllers, like carefully pushing damaged and stopped train to next station or passing track construction area without fully working safety system) limits top speed to 50 km/h in Finnish system. And as far as I know, driver has no simple way to override that.

The US is very far behind Europe for train safety. A few places here have the train speeds automatically limited, but most places still rely only on the train's driver to control the train speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Washington_train_derailment

The accident in the article I just linked to happened because the driver was driving the route for the first time (it was actually the first time for passenger service on that route). The driver did not see the sign warning that he had to slow the train down for the curve over the highway bridge. This accident happened near to where I live.

(The only reason such a dangerous curve was on the route at all is because they did not want to pay the money to rebuild an existing bridge.)

The three people killed in the crash were train enthusiasts who had booked passage on this trip precisely because it was the first passenger service on this route.

The official findings did not blame the train driver, but rather the inadequacy of his training and also the lack of automatic speed controls.

Edited June 13, 2020 by mikegarrison

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, Arugela said:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/02/825897966/train-engineer-says-he-crashed-in-attempt-to-attack-navy-hospital-ship-in-l-a

 

Is NPR a joke sight. If not how does someone crash a train into a concrete barrier and derail it and not die?! What would be the physics behind this? Is this the NPR from that show from the 90's joe rogan was on or is this a real NPR. I thought it was a real news organization though.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/us/train-derailed-mercy-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

 

I'm going to assume it was not as violently as the first storry made it sound. It said full speed..

 

It would be funny if there was some sort of gas leak or something involved. I wonder if trains can give off fumes and literally make someone get weird like that. I bet nobody involved will look into anything like that.

First off I assume this will be classed as an obvious  terrorist attack. He is an Darwin award winner as he will die in jail. 
You do not attack an hospital ship , if you want to expose some scam you infiltrate. Wearing an admiral uniform or carrying heavy boxes help. This get you an fine if failed

Mechanically your problem is g load and telescoping as in the wagons behind you run into you. It looked like the barriers was rater flimsy for an train more like the one you see at roads, if derailed trains wheels dig down, get an high drag and stops fast

[HansonKerman]

8 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

Except on Star Trek and real ships (trains too, back in the day). This definition is actually older, that's why they're called "engineers". Since this the most cutting edge materials and systems of the era was used in steam engines, engineers had to be quite well versed in these things. It was only later that the term expanded, and the railroads and ships kept the older meaning.

in my experience engineers take most of their time building sentries and eeeeeeeerectin’ dispensers.
Anyway, I believe that it can happen. I haven’t read the articles tho. Hmmmmmmnn

 

I read it. Some definite “artistic liberties” were taken. I don’t think that it was really that hard or that many things. I believe that it happened. 

13 hours ago, Shpaget said:

As to how he survived, luck and chance.

 

[Kerbart]

13 hours ago, Arugela said:

.It's treated like a truck driver by the looks of it and not an engineering profession. Do they not do repairs or anything. Could they not improve the operation or design of the train if run by professionals... Engineers have higher ethics and would be more suited for this outside of the boredom.

That is the job title. Someone who operates a locomotive is called the “engineer” of the train. The locomotive is also called the engine. Just like someone who operates a farm is a farm-er, someone who operates the engine is an engine-er. The term goes back to the 19th century, long before we associated it with a bachelors degree or higher. Language works that way.

On the subject, don’t go railing against NASA’s astronauts! It’s a similar thing.

 

[Hannu2]

19 hours ago, Arugela said:

Wouldn't a train engineer have the education to know if it could reach the boat. Isn't that part of the education to become a train engineer? I thought they had to at least have a general engineering background.

 

Basically train driver should know, but this guy has probably have some kind of psychosis and his sense of reality (this has probably some other english word) has been decreased.

19 hours ago, Arugela said:

This story is very odd. Sounds like they made it up and some hippy made up a story about it. How does any of this make sense for someone with an actual education. Or can anyone become a train engineer these days. I'll assume it does not require an engineering degree anymore.

 

 

Train engineer is historical name for profession. In previous decades steam and diesel locomotives needed much more service and repairs and driver had to fix damaged locomotives in line or temporary conditions to get them to workshop. They had much more responsibility in technical thing and had to know how locomotive works and how o find and fix problems or report them to workshop if needed.

Modern locomotives are fully computerized with self diagnostic tools and very specialized tech which can not be repaired in railyard sidetrack or even railway company's workshops. They do not need much daily service and are extremely reliable compared to 50 years old locos. Also most of service is changing modules and send them to manufacturer's workshop.

Engineering skills are not needed anymore for drivers as much and also in workshops. I know that in my country railway company have decreased demands in engineering background, part of engineering in driver education and also shut down many  repair workshops during last few decades. On the other hand safety rules and equipment have become much more complex and need bigger part in education and practical work.

 

[Nightside]

when you ask proper Engineers to crash a train....

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Nightside

[WestAir]

I'm late to this thread but I'm a current Locomotive Engineer for a US Railroad; I operate freight and commuter trains.

As for the article: There's no way he got up to any real speed, and if even if he could, there was no way he was making it to that ship. But what if he had? Well he'd have absolutely demolished everything in his path. US trains, unlike other trains, are built to ridiculous crash standards due to road crossing safety regulations. One of our trains took out a concrete station platform before. That's how strong these things are. They're a lot heavier than their European or Asian counterparts, and one of the reasons you don't see a lot of the super modern foreign rolling stock making its way to the US.

As for the training: We only required a high school diploma. I came from the airlines with an aeronautical degree but that wasn't required. There were cognitive tests but it wasn't like you saw a psychiatrist. You have to remember that our job is a lonely one; I can go hours sitting there by myself looking at rail. After 30 years of being confined to an engine with your thoughts, you can see where some level of insanity might creep up.

As for technical knowledge: We're pretty proficient at fixing the train on the go. Our trains can carry several thousand passengers into heavily secluded territories with no access to roads or emergency services, and we have a 3 man crew. We can usually troubleshoot most problems, save for a derail or a dead engine. No one wants to be rescued; It could take hours for them to get maintenance or another train out to you.

As for cutting out safety systems; We routinely do this when making up trains / yard work / trouble shooting / etc. Usually the switches that disable safety features are sealed but you can break those seals with the flick of your wrist. I am not 100% positive but I think the onboard computer will apply a penalty brake if you accelerate beyond 65 mph with the speed controls disabled. I say I'm not sure because I know they test sections of the rail at 100 mph, and with the speed control activated it limits you to 81 mph. I haven't asked how they do that yet.

To Mike Garrisons point on the US being behind in safety - this is absolutely true. At my railroad we have "Dark territory" where you are required to turn off the speed control before entering, and all curves / switches / speed limits are muscle memory by the Locomotive Engineer. God forbid you fall asleep and enter a 25 mph curve at 65 mph. The trains won't stop you from doing that. We don't have any locations in our 750 miles of track where the computer will stop you from passing a stop-signal or hitting the rear of another train or going off the end of the track and into the sea.

If you have any questions feel free to ask or PM me.

Edit: Oh, I forgot. I was taught by my mentors that the name "Engineer" (Most laymen just call us Conductors. Big pet peeve of mine) came from the fact that Locomotives use air. The idea was that you were "engineering air", hence Engineer. Not sure how accurate that is but that's the legend... I personally think it derived from the fact that we operate the engine.

Edited June 26, 2020 by WestAir

[mikegarrison]

43 minutes ago, WestAir said:

 I personally think it derived from the fact that we operate the engine.

I am pretty certain this is the case.

My uncle worked on the railroad for many years. I believe he was a brakeman.